The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in...

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The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in...

Post by Member-Deleted » 09 Nov 2020, 9:25 pm

The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in Self-Defense Laws (2007)

A great read if anyone is interested. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... _id=961468
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Woden » 01 Dec 2020, 11:11 am

BangWhizzClack wrote:The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in Self-Defense Laws (2007)

A great read if anyone is interested. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... _id=961468


A short and interesting read. Thanks.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Dec 2020, 11:17 am

Woden wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in Self-Defense Laws (2007)

A great read if anyone is interested. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... _id=961468


A short and interesting read. Thanks.


You're :welcome:
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Bugman » 01 Dec 2020, 12:48 pm

Yep, quite interesting but surely that can't be real name......Renee Lettow Lerner. The again, what's in a name?
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Dec 2020, 4:04 pm

Bugman wrote:Yep, quite interesting but surely that can't be real name......Renee Lettow Lerner. The again, what's in a name?


Quite right.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 01 Dec 2020, 4:09 pm

Deadly force because of fear anxiety panic, threat of attack.

So if I’m tripping balls and jehovas witness want to come inside and talk to me i can just blow them away. Because I’m thinking holy s**t alien invasion why do they look like giant pandas

Yeah naah
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Dec 2020, 4:27 pm

womble wrote:Deadly force because of fear anxiety panic, threat of attack.

So if I’m tripping balls and jehovas witness want to come inside and talk to me i can just blow them away. Because I’m thinking holy s**t alien invasion why do they look like giant pandas

Yeah naah


Do you contribute anything useful? Or are your arguments all logical fallacies?
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 01 Dec 2020, 5:53 pm

Sometimes i offer illogical fallacies also.

But case in point’ “ Efforts in Belgium show another approach, which is in effect an expansion of provocation doctrine: anyone who exceeds the bounds of proportionality because of emotion (fear, anxiety, or panic) caused by attack or threat of attack is not criminally liable.”

That’s dubious. Misreading the severity of a situation. Not acting with sound reasoning due to strong emotional reaction.
It’s a life and death decision with far reaching implications

Could even conveniently excuse a homicides.
Eg: honey you did’nt mention mother in law was dropping by tonight.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by bladeracer » 01 Dec 2020, 6:05 pm

womble wrote:Deadly force because of fear anxiety panic, threat of attack.

So if I’m tripping balls and jehovas witness want to come inside and talk to me i can just blow them away. Because I’m thinking holy s**t alien invasion why do they look like giant pandas

Yeah naah


If you're tripping what on earth are you doing owning firearms?
If anybody forces their way into your premises you have every right to keep them out.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Ziege » 01 Dec 2020, 7:11 pm

Any government that doesn't recognise and endorse and encourage people sovereignty over their own body and personal space is malicious and malevolent. Any Government that does not allow those governed by it to defend themselves without fear of reprisal is malevolent.

it really is that simple.
Last edited by Ziege on 01 Dec 2020, 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Dec 2020, 7:46 pm

Ziege wrote:Any government that does recognise and endorse and encourage people sovereignty over their own body and personal space is malicious and malevolent. Any Government that does not allow those governed by it to defend themselves without fear of reprisal is malevolent.

it really is that simple.


Typo in the first line?
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Ziege » 01 Dec 2020, 7:51 pm

nawt ne moore
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Dec 2020, 7:52 pm

womble wrote:Sometimes i offer illogical fallacies also.

But case in point’ “ Efforts in Belgium show another approach, which is in effect an expansion of provocation doctrine: anyone who exceeds the bounds of proportionality because of emotion (fear, anxiety, or panic) caused by attack or threat of attack is not criminally liable.”

That’s dubious. Misreading the severity of a situation. Not acting with sound reasoning due to strong emotional reaction.
It’s a life and death decision with far reaching implications

Could even conveniently excuse a homicides.
Eg: honey you did’nt mention mother in law was dropping by tonight.


Yes, it could be abused by those with ill intent, and it could possibly be a defence for those not sound of mind, but the vast majority of the population would be a whole lot safer and secure, and they would feel a lot more confident in themselves should push come to shove.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 02 Dec 2020, 3:07 am

bladeracer wrote:
womble wrote:Deadly force because of fear anxiety panic, threat of attack.

So if I’m tripping balls and jehovas witness want to come inside and talk to me i can just blow them away. Because I’m thinking holy s**t alien invasion why do they look like giant pandas

Yeah naah


If you're tripping what on earth are you doing owning firearms?
If anybody forces their way into your premises you have every right to keep them out.


A lot of people are tripping because the illegal drugs and illegal guns are intertwined.

And forced entry agreed 100% of course. And legally you can use force. I just think lethal force should be the last option.
Last edited by womble on 02 Dec 2020, 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 02 Dec 2020, 3:14 am

BangWhizzClack wrote:
womble wrote:Sometimes i offer illogical fallacies also.

But case in point’ “ Efforts in Belgium show another approach, which is in effect an expansion of provocation doctrine: anyone who exceeds the bounds of proportionality because of emotion (fear, anxiety, or panic) caused by attack or threat of attack is not criminally liable.”

That’s dubious. Misreading the severity of a situation. Not acting with sound reasoning due to strong emotional reaction.
It’s a life and death decision with far reaching implications

Could even conveniently excuse a homicides.
Eg: honey you did’nt mention mother in law was dropping by tonight.


Yes, it could be abused by those with ill intent, and it could possibly be a defence for those not sound of mind, but the vast majority of the population would be a whole lot safer and secure, and they would feel a lot more confident in themselves should push come to shove.


There was a very interesting thread on castle law here if anyone can find it. Perhaps you are right in majority rules.
Theres a lot of very unique case examples in many cases the victim was’nt considered fairly by the courts.
In some cases the offender should’nt have died.
Ultimately it depends on the jury you get on the day. Which is not really good enough, difficult to legislate.
I found peace in it by defaulting to the laws of nature. You will protect your family. You can’t go against your own nature.
Biological compulsion negates decision or choice.
We are animals not machines.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by cz515 » 02 Dec 2020, 5:50 am

I find it ironic that we (ppl in australia) are happy to line up and get all the benefits that socialist beliefs bring. Things like universal free healthcare, education, free roads, government benefits like dole/pension. Then get on and complain how socialist laws are evil and root cause of the issues in the society.

The 2nd amendment (USA) was written in a time when population was very low, spread over a very large area and especially over frontier areas, where there was no sheriffs or police presence somtimes within days riding distance and the frontiers had to deal with maurading indians (upset at the white man stealing their land), and (white) criminals ready to steal the frontierman's belongings/animals, rape their children and women or kill them on any step. Thus i suppose also the need of a castle law.

In a modern society, with cameras, mobile phones, cars, and living in suburban houses and the ability of police to be at a crime scene (if they can be bothered to come) within minutes once notified and with very highly developed field of forensic science, there is not many justifiable reasons to have second amendment or castle type laws.

Even if a few people want these types of laws, the majority in the society see the benefit being given to them, with the (apparent) sense of security etc will not want others to enact these laws. So the choice is if you want them, maybe move to a backwards lawless country, there are a few in Africa that come to my mind.

Go and discuss
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 02 Dec 2020, 8:14 am

Not on the land.
Police are not getting there for a while
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Ziege » 02 Dec 2020, 9:56 am

the second amendment has more to do with domestic and foreign threats to both the constitution of the USA and the Citizens it awards rights and protections to, nothing to do with sheriffs and the likes, not even remotely.

as for your cameras and s**t, if that makes you feel safe then you must live in a very sheltered area. I know someone recently (third cousin) who was accosted by 3 drug addicts, no camera, light, mobile phone, threat of police, etc made one ounce of difference. a gun would have.

if you think forensics makes a difference when there isnt already DNA/Prints from the perp you are sorely mistaken. plus theyre usually 3 or 4 days late.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 Dec 2020, 10:03 am

cz515 wrote:I find it ironic that we (ppl in australia) are happy to line up and get all the benefits that socialist beliefs bring. Things like universal free healthcare, education, free roads, government benefits like dole/pension. Then get on and complain how socialist laws are evil and root cause of the issues in the society.

The 2nd amendment (USA) was written in a time when population was very low, spread over a very large area and especially over frontier areas, where there was no sheriffs or police presence somtimes within days riding distance and the frontiers had to deal with maurading indians (upset at the white man stealing their land), and (white) criminals ready to steal the frontierman's belongings/animals, rape their children and women or kill them on any step. Thus i suppose also the need of a castle law.

In a modern society, with cameras, mobile phones, cars, and living in suburban houses and the ability of police to be at a crime scene (if they can be bothered to come) within minutes once notified and with very highly developed field of forensic science, there is not many justifiable reasons to have second amendment or castle type laws.

Even if a few people want these types of laws, the majority in the society see the benefit being given to them, with the (apparent) sense of security etc will not want others to enact these laws. So the choice is if you want them, maybe move to a backwards lawless country, there are a few in Africa that come to my mind.

Go and discuss


I don't really wish to have this pointless argument because it never goes anywhere. You are wrong about the second amendment and where/why it was written. The founding principle still stands, it is a last resort to stop tyranny. It's purpose is not for hunting and sorting disputes, it's to help level the playing field to ensure people aren't forced to be ruled by tyrants. Most of the settlements were large, not some homesteads scattered about. They faced the same human-related issues as we face, it's just technology has advanced.

As for your comment on those arguing for and against socialist rules when it suits them; can one not admire some parts of economic systems while also shunning others? That's how new systems are made no? I personally don't like a welfare state, but as I was not born as fortunate as many, I'm glad I can fall back on it should I have to. I do see it as intentional by our governments, and in the end I think it's going to be very bad for those who are now reliant on it, but if it gives me a chance to get back out there, instead of dying by the wayside, I'll take it. BTW, those things aren't free, they are paid for by you and I through taxes.

Castle law is most definitely still needed. Even with those technologies, the police are an afterthought in a life-threatening situation, they aren't there now, you are, you have to rely on yourself to defend yourself and your property. As someone who has been a victim of a number of crimes including assaults, attempted murder and thefts, the police are useless. They investigate, report and make decisions from that (none of my perpetrators were ever caught or "brought to justice", I've even had a police officer refuse to prevent a crime in progress with sufficient evidence, all he said was "yeah, it sucks when people do that"), they are not there to protect you or your belongings.

Ah yes, the old "if you don't like it, leave" trope. Well, as a citizen and someone who's family has been here since the beginning, I say no, why should other people be able to change the laws even if they are not wanted by the population at large but I have to like it or leave? That is not how it works. Besides, it's hypocritical of me to not like immigration but then immigrate to another country because I don't like my own.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 02 Dec 2020, 3:09 pm

Theoretically, prevention of crime is better. A strong deterrent is better.
Unfortunately theres no long term success stories worldwide. The bad guys just don’t seem to think through the consequences.
Even with capitol punishment and civilians armed to the teeth, crime is rife. North and South America being obvious examples.

Haha no immigration was fine when everyone had 12 kids.
Been a while since that was affordable.
So I’m not sure how we would have grown our economy, or even had any sort of sustainable economy without it.
Most families now 2.5 children per household. So you’d have half your population in aged care. Who’s paying for that when around a quarter of the population are employed. Then you’ve got schools, hospitals and all other infrastructure that quarter have to fund.
Today we’ve got about 65% of the population employed. Yep you guessed it, immigration.

Please humour us with your alternative solution. :)
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by cz515 » 02 Dec 2020, 4:26 pm

Ziege wrote:the second amendment has more to do with domestic and foreign threats to both the constitution of the USA and the Citizens it awards rights and protections to, nothing to do with sheriffs and the likes, not even remotely.


Yes while it was written in 1770s after the American colonials fought the British. But its the self defence aspect of it that was used prevalently in the 19th, 20th and the 21st century.

Whatever the reason it was intended for or is used for now..... are not relevant in this day and age. But if you actually thought about what i wrote and not just ASS-umed it might be better
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2020, 5:07 pm

cz515 wrote:
Ziege wrote:the second amendment has more to do with domestic and foreign threats to both the constitution of the USA and the Citizens it awards rights and protections to, nothing to do with sheriffs and the likes, not even remotely.


Yes while it was written in 1770s after the American colonials fought the British. But its the self defence aspect of it that was used prevalently in the 19th, 20th and the 21st century.

Whatever the reason it was intended for or is used for now..... are not relevant in this day and age. But if you actually thought about what i wrote and not just ASS-umed it might be better


How is self-defence no longer relevant in any society?
As the left holds the criminals in ever higher esteem it becomes more and more relevant that we need to be our own first line of defence.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Ziege » 02 Dec 2020, 5:10 pm

cz515 wrote:
Ziege wrote:the second amendment has more to do with domestic and foreign threats to both the constitution of the USA and the Citizens it awards rights and protections to, nothing to do with sheriffs and the likes, not even remotely.


Yes while it was written in 1770s after the American colonials fought the British. But its the self defence aspect of it that was used prevalently in the 19th, 20th and the 21st century.

Whatever the reason it was intended for or is used for now..... are not relevant in this day and age. But if you actually thought about what i wrote and not just ASS-umed it might be better



Except they are relevant in this age, those before and those in the future... clearly you're pig headed about it, and that's fine, your fudd opinion on the 2nd doesn't remove it or make it less relevant, it is as poignant as ever and you're as welcome to your objectively incorrect opinion as ever.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Ziege » 02 Dec 2020, 5:18 pm

womble wrote:Theoretically, prevention of crime is better. A strong deterrent is better.
Unfortunately theres no long term success stories worldwide. The bad guys just don’t seem to think through the consequences.
Even with capitol punishment and civilians armed to the teeth, crime is rife. North and South America being obvious examples.



Except it does work, an obama led study by the FBI and CDC found (much to their dismay) that Firearms used defensively save upto 3.5 million people per year in the USA from violent offenders, you know, the murderers, rapists and so on.

Compare that to the less than 30,000 deaths by guns (mostly suicide and illegal gang activity) and its more than correct to state that there is a massive success story in using guns to defend ones self and family. infact its over 1000 times more beneficial.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by womble » 03 Dec 2020, 3:16 am

bladeracer wrote:
cz515 wrote:
Ziege wrote:the second amendment has more to do with domestic and foreign threats to both the constitution of the USA and the Citizens it awards rights and protections to, nothing to do with sheriffs and the likes, not even remotely.


Yes while it was written in 1770s after the American colonials fought the British. But its the self defence aspect of it that was used prevalently in the 19th, 20th and the 21st century.

Whatever the reason it was intended for or is used for now..... are not relevant in this day and age. But if you actually thought about what i wrote and not just ASS-umed it might be better


How is self-defence no longer relevant in any society?
As the left holds the criminals in ever higher esteem it becomes more and more relevant that we need to be our own first line of defence.


Finally someone does mention a flaw of the political left.
Soft on crime.
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Re: The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in.

Post by Member-Deleted » 03 Dec 2020, 8:30 am

womble wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
cz515 wrote:
Ziege wrote:the second amendment has more to do with domestic and foreign threats to both the constitution of the USA and the Citizens it awards rights and protections to, nothing to do with sheriffs and the likes, not even remotely.


Yes while it was written in 1770s after the American colonials fought the British. But its the self defence aspect of it that was used prevalently in the 19th, 20th and the 21st century.

Whatever the reason it was intended for or is used for now..... are not relevant in this day and age. But if you actually thought about what i wrote and not just ASS-umed it might be better


How is self-defence no longer relevant in any society?
As the left holds the criminals in ever higher esteem it becomes more and more relevant that we need to be our own first line of defence.


Finally someone does mention a flaw of the political left.
Soft on crime.


They don't just not punish them, they often encourage and hire them.
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