Can you hear the war drums beating?

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Apr 2021, 11:39 am

A great read that I found through a discussion with a Russian. https://theconversation.com/ancient-gre ... rchy-60277
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by bah! » 25 Apr 2021, 3:46 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:A great read that I found through a discussion with a Russian. https://theconversation.com/ancient-gre ... rchy-60277


Yes, I don't know how anyone can reasonably claim that the USA is a robust democracy when it's such an inequitable system, and education is too poor, Australia isn't far from the same issues.

Ostracism though, whoo boy I could think of some deserving candidates for that though.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by Larry » 25 Apr 2021, 4:04 pm

How can it be claimed a robust democracy when one of the major parties main strategy is voter suppression.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by DaveZ » 25 Apr 2021, 5:35 pm

cz515 wrote:Sarcastic content follows

Everyone who talks about home intruders and ability to shoot. Why do you need a gun to feel secure? do you live in a ghetto? Ffs have you such a small appendage that you need a big metal object under your pillow to feel safe?

Ok here is the fact, how many times have you heard of break n entry on news in aus. How many times from that the occupants were safe the next day... cuz the slept through?

How light sleeper are you, and how dumb do you think a guy coming to steal your car keys etc, will he goto kitchen smash up the pots and pans to first wake you up, so that you can fetch the firearm stored under your bed and allow you to shoot him?

The reality is they will likely come armed and shot you first before you become a problem...or just use your own firearm against you. So a burglary suddenly becomes a homicide.

In America how many mass shootings, home invasions have actuality been stopped by these tiny dk ppl with their 20" revolvers that they carrying on person every year. The fact is every day they have multiple multi fatalities all over the country (including state that allow concealed carry rules)

Then you compare to countries like Australia, NZ, UK most European countries, they have little access to firearms.... less crime and less deaths per 100,000 people and that is an undeniable fact.


Pretty much sums up what a lot of people feel is wrong with this country. So focussed on "you don't need that because most people survive anyway" and "it wouldn't do you any good because blah blah" and "you should just run away from the problem". Never much of a mention about why the people who are forcing their way into your property with bad intentions even have any rights at all. Trespassers with ill intent should leave all their rights at the front gate as far as I'm concerned.

Would I use a firearm in self defence? Probably not. Would I choose to remove myself from the situation and rebuild after the fact? Most likely. But the fact that I don't have a choice in the matter and the criminal seems to have far more rights in the situation than I do is what gets to me and many others.

As the good Dr said, "Why is it so?"
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by bigrich » 25 Apr 2021, 5:44 pm

DaveZ wrote:
Would I use a firearm in self defence? Probably not. Would I choose to remove myself from the situation and rebuild after the fact? Most likely. But the fact that I don't have a choice in the matter and the criminal seems to have far more rights in the situation than I do is what gets to me and many others.

As the good Dr said, "Why is it so?"


yeah dave , the rights of criminals over the rights of people to defend themselves is not right . "reasonable force" is another "grey" area of the law

some independant politicians were looking to push for castle law in this country . unfortunately both major parties didn't want to support it :thumbsdown:
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by bah! » 25 Apr 2021, 8:27 pm

Larry wrote:How can it be claimed a robust democracy when one of the major parties main strategy is voter suppression.


Yeah I don't know but the assertion is made further up the thread.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by boingk » 25 Apr 2021, 10:39 pm

DaveZ wrote:Trespassers with ill intent should leave all their rights at the front gate as far as I'm concerned.


Couldn't agree more. They call that the 'Castle Defence' in the US. Very reasonable as far as I'm concerned - someon wants in (or is in) with ill intent and you don't want them to be? Game on.

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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by straightshooter » 26 Apr 2021, 8:07 am

bigrich wrote:
DaveZ wrote:
Would I use a firearm in self defence? Probably not. Would I choose to remove myself from the situation and rebuild after the fact? Most likely. But the fact that I don't have a choice in the matter and the criminal seems to have far more rights in the situation than I do is what gets to me and many others.

As the good Dr said, "Why is it so?"


yeah dave , the rights of criminals over the rights of people to defend themselves is not right . "reasonable force" is another "grey" area of the law

some independant politicians were looking to push for castle law in this country . unfortunately both major parties didn't want to support it :thumbsdown:

Rights? What rights and where are they enshrined?
The situation you describe is a moment in time where the perpetrator has agency just as the recipient of the perpetrator's actions also has agency albeit limited by or dictated by the perpetrator's actions.
The degree to which any of those actions by either individual are offences depend on the current interpretation of law.
We live in a state operating in accordance with a Hobbesian philosophic structure. That is all individuals cede all natural rights to a sovereign in return for the security and personal safety offered by that sovereign, irrespective of whether any individual likes it or not.
Over time that sovereign has morphed from an individual person and his/her whims into a varying agglomeration of political elite satisfying their assorted predilections.
From time to time the general population are placated with the delusion that they have some sort of role in the selection of certain popular overt elements of that political elite.
The perception of the nature of the putative democracy we live in is in reality an artefact of the indoctrinated imagination of each individual in our society.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cleger » 26 Apr 2021, 8:12 am

bah! wrote:
Larry wrote:How can it be claimed a robust democracy when one of the major parties main strategy is voter suppression.


Yeah I don't know but the assertion is made further up the thread.


That there has been "voter suppression" here in the U.S. does not mean we do not have a (robust) democracy.

Do you know what "gerrymandering" is? Has it ever been practised in Australia? (Can't resist mentioning here that I'm related to Elbridge Gerry.) Has any play ever been made there to curtail enrollment? Even so, you had a robust democracy.

It is true that the Republicans have increasingly resorted to voter suppression over the past several cycles, but that's because they have little left; the demographic trends are not on their side, and they know it. Give it a few more years, and those tactics will stop working for them at all. I say that as one who has been a registered Republican since I became eligible to vote in 1983.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by wanneroo » 26 Apr 2021, 10:58 am

cz515 wrote:Sarcastic content follows

Everyone who talks about home intruders and ability to shoot. Why do you need a gun to feel secure? do you live in a ghetto? Ffs have you such a small appendage that you need a big metal object under your pillow to feel safe?

Ok here is the fact, how many times have you heard of break n entry on news in aus. How many times from that the occupants were safe the next day... cuz the slept through?

How light sleeper are you, and how dumb do you think a guy coming to steal your car keys etc, will he goto kitchen smash up the pots and pans to first wake you up, so that you can fetch the firearm stored under your bed and allow you to shoot him?

The reality is they will likely come armed and shot you first before you become a problem...or just use your own firearm against you. So a burglary suddenly becomes a homicide.

In America how many mass shootings, home invasions have actuality been stopped by these tiny dk ppl with their 20" revolvers that they carrying on person every year. The fact is every day they have multiple multi fatalities all over the country (including state that allow concealed carry rules)

Then you compare to countries like Australia, NZ, UK most European countries, they have little access to firearms.... less crime and less deaths per 100,000 people and that is an undeniable fact.


I have an AR-15 with 40 round mags for the bedside gun, along with my Walther and my Uzi.

I have them so I don't have to use them. The neighborhood isn't a ghetto and is virtually crimeless here because we all have guns.

There have been rare instances of home invasions and such here, but these are often brought to a halt with a gun.

I live in a large rural county where there might only be two state troopers on duty for the whole county at night, so we take responsibility for our own protection.

There is data out there on guns being used to halt crimes here in the USA, you can look it up if you chose.

Now some might say one has a little ding dong for taking responsibility for your own protection, but how would one know?

I have a very libertarian approach to all this. If people don't want to have firearms to protect themselves, so be it. But I don't need them imposing their own personal choices on me.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by wanneroo » 26 Apr 2021, 11:09 am

boingk wrote:
DaveZ wrote:Trespassers with ill intent should leave all their rights at the front gate as far as I'm concerned.


Couldn't agree more. They call that the 'Castle Defence' in the US. Very reasonable as far as I'm concerned - someon wants in (or is in) with ill intent and you don't want them to be? Game on.

- boingk


In my state the law assumes if someone is making forced entry into your home, they are there to commit a violent felony and you can respond in kind with force sufficient to stop the threat. Engaging in any hollywood theatrics like "finishing them off" would not be looked upon favorably.

If on your property and they threaten to kill you or produce a weapon demonstrating intent, you can also respond in kind with deadly force.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cleger » 26 Apr 2021, 11:11 am

I keep my guns locked-up, but we don't have any "home invasions" around here.

On the subject of dick-sizes, when I was living in Brisbane, I was talking with this guy about metric measurements versus the old-timey ones we use here in the US. I asked whether they didn't really use at least some Imperial measures, as they do in the UK and Canada, but he said "no, we were taught metric exclusively in school since I was a kid. About the only thing we know anymore is that our dicks are six inches long."

To which I said "only six?"
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by wanneroo » 26 Apr 2021, 11:14 am

DaveZ wrote: So focussed on "you don't need that because most people survive anyway" and "it wouldn't do you any good because blah blah" and "you should just run away from the problem". Never much of a mention about why the people who are forcing their way into your property with bad intentions even have any rights at all.


Well yes Dave it is interesting how these anti gun anti self defense people turn it around on the innocent citizen minding their own business and you never, ever hear any mention of these crims busting down your door to do whatever. It's no wonder government sympathizes with the criminal and looks at the average citizen with disdain, it's a reflection of the people that voted them in.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cleger » 26 Apr 2021, 11:17 am

wanneroo wrote:In my state the law assumes if someone is making forced entry into your home, they are there to commit a violent felony and you can respond in kind with force sufficient to stop the threat.


My state:
Massachusetts General Laws, Part IV, Title II, Chapter 278, Section 8A
In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.


https://malegislature.gov/laws/generall ... /section8a
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by bigrich » 26 Apr 2021, 1:05 pm

cleger wrote:
wanneroo wrote:In my state the law assumes if someone is making forced entry into your home, they are there to commit a violent felony and you can respond in kind with force sufficient to stop the threat.


My state:
Massachusetts General Laws, Part IV, Title II, Chapter 278, Section 8A
In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.


https://malegislature.gov/laws/generall ... /section8a


yep , well that's great :thumbsup:

unfortunately i don't live in america , in australia i would be charged with a offence and lose my firearms license . i don't think it's right , but it's the rule of law where i live . :?
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by bigrich » 26 Apr 2021, 1:11 pm

straightshooter wrote:
bigrich wrote:
DaveZ wrote:
Would I use a firearm in self defence? Probably not. Would I choose to remove myself from the situation and rebuild after the fact? Most likely. But the fact that I don't have a choice in the matter and the criminal seems to have far more rights in the situation than I do is what gets to me and many others.

As the good Dr said, "Why is it so?"


yeah dave , the rights of criminals over the rights of people to defend themselves is not right . "reasonable force" is another "grey" area of the law

some independant politicians were looking to push for castle law in this country . unfortunately both major parties didn't want to support it :thumbsdown:

Rights? What rights and where are they enshrined?
The situation you describe is a moment in time where the perpetrator has agency just as the recipient of the perpetrator's actions also has agency albeit limited by or dictated by the perpetrator's actions.
The degree to which any of those actions by either individual are offences depend on the current interpretation of law.
We live in a state operating in accordance with a Hobbesian philosophic structure. That is all individuals cede all natural rights to a sovereign in return for the security and personal safety offered by that sovereign, irrespective of whether any individual likes it or not.
Over time that sovereign has morphed from an individual person and his/her whims into a varying agglomeration of political elite satisfying their assorted predilections.
From time to time the general population are placated with the delusion that they have some sort of role in the selection of certain popular overt elements of that political elite.
The perception of the nature of the putative democracy we live in is in reality an artefact of the indoctrinated imagination of each individual in our society.


well straight shooter that's a whole lot of big words and important sounding legal terms that i just don't understand :crazy:

what i do understand is if i use a firearm in home or personal defence in australia , unless i'm a millionaire who can afford a top barrister or QC," the system" is probably going to roll over the top of me and i'll most likely be on more serious charges than a attacker/home invader :thumbsdown:

that's the bottom line in layman's terms :P
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cleger » 26 Apr 2021, 1:33 pm

bigrich wrote:yep , well that's great :thumbsup:

unfortunately i don't live in america , in australia i would be charged with a offence and lose my firearms license . i don't think it's right , but it's the rule of law where i live . :?


I don't know Australian law, and don't know exactly where to find it.

Is the difference between your law and that of Massachusetts that you have a "duty to retreat" even when in your home? Here in Massachusetts, unlike most other states, one's home (or "dwelling" as in the MGL I quoted above) is the only place that applies. Everywhere else, one must escape if there's a route available.

I guess what I mean is that I assume that there can be cases of "justifiable homicide" in Australia. Keep in mind that the law I cited provides an affirmative defence in only that one very narrow set of circumstances. Otherwise, the usual rules apply. I assume that outside of that narrow circumstance, Massachusetts law would be similar to yours.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by Larry » 26 Apr 2021, 1:46 pm

Our Laws allow for us to defend ourselves and use reasonable force to do so. To use a firearm however would be unusual given that the majority of the time that they are locked away and with ammunition stored in another locked container in a different room. If you have 10 minutes to arm yourself then the law would argue that there were other options that could have been taken.

The BS about not having the right to own a gun is just that BS. If you have a firearms license then you have a right to own a gun and use it within the laws.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cleger » 26 Apr 2021, 2:34 pm

Larry wrote:Our Laws allow for us to defend ourselves and use reasonable force to do so. To use a firearm however would be unusual given that the majority of the time that they are locked away and with ammunition stored in another locked container in a different room. If you have 10 minutes to arm yourself then the law would argue that there were other options that could have been taken.

The BS about not having the right to own a gun is just that BS. If you have a firearms license then you have a right to own a gun and use it within the laws.


Makes sense.

Noise you hear notwithstanding, in New England, (at least***) it's quite rare for anyone to defend themselves with a firearm in the kind of circumstances I assume we're all imagining in this thread -- that is, to catch someone having broken-into one's home. Almost never, ever happens, except among people who already have some sort of "association" with one another.

The only case I could find where someone used that Massachusetts law I cited in his defense (actually, it was a motion for appeal of his conviction for murdering his own half-brother) was a guy who enlisted his brother's help to find the people who had robbed him, and whom he had recognised. They were all a bunch of low-lifes.

The guy and his half-brother got drunk, got in an argument, and the guy shot and killed his half-brother. He claimed "ineffective counsel" in his motion for appeal of his murder conviction because his lawyer didn't rely on the aforementioned law, and because he had asked his brother to leave (thereby transforming him into a trespasser) before shooting him.

Things aren't always what they seem. Believe it or not, many of us Americans manage to go our whole lives without ever knowing anyone who's ever seen a gun pulled on anyone, and most of our burglars come when people are away.

As others have written, the US is a big country, population-wise, with some pretty stark cultural differences from place-to-place. I was talking with a Canadian not long ago who likewise wished he had the same "freedoms" as we do here in the US... he told me about how he had visited Vermont and saw a guy go by on a motorcycle with a pistol strapped to his hip. Said he thought he was in paradise. I didn't argue with him, but who the f*** wants guys with guns riding around on motorcycles? I mean, it's fine, but, WTF?

On another forum the other day, a guy started a thread about the dinner he was cooking... posted photos, culminating with the one of his plate, with his Spiderco folder placed just to the right, and a pistol alongside that. Meanwhile his little kids were seated there around the table awaiting dinner. Great fun.

Be careful what you wish for.

*** for those who don't know, both Massachusetts and Vermont are in New England, the region in the extreme northeastern U.S, up by maritime Canada.

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/437/437mass204.html
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by womble » 26 Apr 2021, 5:07 pm

This one was caught on cctv in Miami Florida https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_z4IuxAqpE
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cz515 » 26 Apr 2021, 5:11 pm

You all do realise you are taking about killing a person, sure right now you can easily justify and maybe in the heart of the moment, but then afterwards what about PTSD, and don't say it's not gona happen, every year hundreds of men (farmers) commit suicide in Australia because depression is real. Ask any soldier who has killed an enemy combatant, most would have Austin's of PTSD.

They do "active shooter drills" in American schools, while some people including the companies that are making $$$ doing them say they are good, but there are many cases where students are presenting with symptoms of PTSD same as those who have witnessed an actual event.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... is/580426/

So how wonderful that in a free country the model of Western prosperity, school scolded as young as primary school have to think there could be a mass shooting event. Frack I have been in a few third world countries, that is something that most kids never have thought about, let alone experienced.

So I am honestly glad that numpties do not run around carrying guns in public in Australia. And the most primary school children will have to worry about is what snack they having for lunch or recess
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cz515 » 26 Apr 2021, 5:23 pm

womble wrote:This one was caught on cctv in Miami Florida https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_z4IuxAqpE


Sheet that was scary, I wonder how he survived so many shots... unless he had a bullet proof vest. My condolences to Tony and his family may he rest in peace.

Btw the dancing sequence afflatus makes me laugh
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by Member-Deleted » 28 Apr 2021, 6:05 pm

cz515 wrote:You all do realise you are taking about killing a person, sure right now you can easily justify and maybe in the heart of the moment, but then afterwards what about PTSD, and don't say it's not gona happen, every year hundreds of men (farmers) commit suicide in Australia because depression is real. Ask any soldier who has killed an enemy combatant, most would have Austin's of PTSD.

They do "active shooter drills" in American schools, while some people including the companies that are making $$$ doing them say they are good, but there are many cases where students are presenting with symptoms of PTSD same as those who have witnessed an actual event.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... is/580426/

So how wonderful that in a free country the model of Western prosperity, school scolded as young as primary school have to think there could be a mass shooting event. Frack I have been in a few third world countries, that is something that most kids never have thought about, let alone experienced.

So I am honestly glad that numpties do not run around carrying guns in public in Australia. And the most primary school children will have to worry about is what snack they having for lunch or recess


If I am the victim of a home invasion, I'm not leaving my fate in the hands of the criminal, just for the police to rock up for a welfare check weeks later because there was a funny smell. I would likely be affected by PTSD after an invasion if I survived and did leave my fate in the hands of the criminals as well, plus the paranoia of wondering if they or their friends are targeting me again. What if I went to the police? Would there be repercussions? Have they studied me and know where I work? Exercise? Play? Etc. Plus I could be left with serious injuries that destroy my quality of life. Sure, maybe I do what they say and they happen to be gentle criminals breaking into my place that will leave me well enough alone afterwards and give me a peck on the cheek before they leave, but they odds of that are slim. I'm a big guy, I'm not someone you would want to just leave alone while you conduct your business. A handful of former special forces soldiers have advised me to fight for my life if in the situation, as most organised violent groups I.e. invading military, organised criminals, gangs, pirates, terrorists etc., would kill me off the bat just so they didn't have to worry about me.

However, if I take action, and take their lives, sure I may be racked with mixed emotions afterwards and trauma, but hey, that's what counselling is for, at least I'm alive and will have the closure knowing they won't be hurting me or anyone else again. Could there be retaliation? Sure, but at least they know I'm not a soft target. Maybe the police will send me into witness protection. Or maybe I'll be imprisoned, but hey, at least I did some community service before hand.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by ZaineB » 28 Apr 2021, 8:41 pm

always so much 2A bashing on here, from non USA citizens, what does wanneroo and other USA citizens on here think?
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by ZaineB » 28 Apr 2021, 9:18 pm

cz515 wrote:In America how many mass shootings, home invasions have actuality been stopped by these tiny dk ppl with their 20" revolvers that they carrying on person every year. The fact is every day they have multiple multi fatalities all over the country (including state that allow concealed carry rules)


https://www.heritage.org/data-visualiza ... in-the-us/

https://redstate.com/elizabeth-vaughn/2 ... ls-n124268

https://capitalresearch.org/article/why ... tatistics/

https://fee.org/articles/more-people-us ... accidents/

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... tfact.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... ad4ccc299a

seems they are plenty useful. so sayeth the democrat government controlled CDC of the Obama era.

I often hear that "just one gun death or shooting is too many", well surely if guns save just one more life than they cost they are worth it then using the exact same reasoning.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by on_one_wheel » 28 Apr 2021, 9:20 pm

The media won't be reporting anything about good people with guns savings the day, that goes against their agenda.

Funny how these mass shooting are happening in gun free zones and cities with tough gun laws. :unknown:.

Edit: I just googled "armed citizen saves the day"
There's no shortage of results :thumbsup:
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by cleger » 29 Apr 2021, 12:52 am

ZaineB wrote:always so much 2A bashing on here, from non USA citizens, what does wanneroo and other USA citizens on here think?


What do we think about what? The 2nd amendment in general?
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by ZaineB » 29 Apr 2021, 1:20 am

cleger wrote:
ZaineB wrote:always so much 2A bashing on here, from non USA citizens, what does wanneroo and other USA citizens on here think?


What do we think about what? The 2nd amendment in general?



well more the rather flagrant disregard for your rights in general by those who don't live there/don't understand America and the history etc.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by ZaineB » 29 Apr 2021, 1:23 am

on_one_wheel wrote:The media won't be reporting anything about good people with guns savings the day, that goes against their agenda.

Funny how these mass shooting are happening in gun free zones and cities with tough gun laws. :unknown:.

Edit: I just googled "armed citizen saves the day"
There's no shortage of results :thumbsup:



of course not, how could the media possibly waver from the narrative that we should all be living under forced control from an allegedly benevolent government that still cant seem to not lie or deliver on any electoral promise making. but that government is only benevolent if it fits the big tech/media left bias of course.

the last thing the media wants is people having individual thoughts, feelings and therefore actions. the media and those governing who are aligned with them require as many brain cells shut down as possible and as much complacency as possible from the populace.
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Re: Can you hear the war drums beating?

Post by Larry » 29 Apr 2021, 7:35 am

Its not the topic that posters are over its the numpties that post so many stupid conspiracy theories here. Just look at the posts over the last few days WW3 ect. Those numbpties are wannabe heroes with a gun behind the front door ready for action.
Larry
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