Wonnangatta murders

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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by disco stu » 30 Nov 2021, 5:33 pm

Any idea how far Grant is from where they were originally camped/killed?
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 30 Nov 2021, 5:44 pm

disco stu wrote:Any idea how far Grant is from where they were originally camped/killed?

Its about 50kms
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Larry » 30 Nov 2021, 5:51 pm

mchughcb wrote:So they have already found remains at Grants.

Going to be interesting how the old bloke died. And more interesting why.


Thing is we may never know all the details. As he will most likely plead guilty now. Pretty hard to deny it after bodies are found where you told the cops they would find them.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by womble » 30 Nov 2021, 6:01 pm

There’s a few missing in that area. Could be anyone.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by mchughcb » 30 Nov 2021, 6:28 pm

Larry wrote:
mchughcb wrote:So they have already found remains at Grants.

Going to be interesting how the old bloke died. And more interesting why.


Thing is we may never know all the details. As he will most likely plead guilty now. Pretty hard to deny it after bodies are found where you told the cops they would find them.


Mr Hill's wife and Ms Clay's family thought each of them was camping alone, but police declined to speculate further about the nature of their relationship.

"It is delicate and we are being very respectful of both families wishes and concerns here," Detective Inspector Stamper told ABC Radio Melbourne.

"Both of these people have large and loving families who are grieving at the moment, and they want answers about where their loved ones are."

Well the first thing we can speculate is that old bloke was playing the field based on this reporting.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2021, 7:52 pm

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Long range target shooting is a thing but I never new long range hunting was a thing.


It's not really. Hunting implies getting close to your quarry, which essentially rules out anything we would consider long-range. It also implies taking an active role, which is why I can't consider "sitting in a tree stand waiting for an animal to come to the feed you laid out for it" to be hunting. Much like English hunting, where you pay the landowner and he has his game warden drive you out to the field they keep the deer in, you shoot one, then go and wait in the library to sip sherry, while the game warden dresses it for you, then drives you back to your Rangerover.

But long-range taking of game is a thing, there are several Youtube channels where they don't shoot anything if it's closer than a few hundred meters.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2021, 7:57 pm

mchughcb wrote:So they have already found remains at Grants.

Going to be interesting how the old bloke died. And more interesting why.


I agree. Killing two people in an argument is possible, and even setting fire to their gear in a poor attempt to conceal it, but then taking the risk to move the bodies so far away just seems weird.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by mchughcb » 30 Nov 2021, 9:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Long range target shooting is a thing but I never new long range hunting was a thing.


It's not really. Hunting implies getting close to your quarry, which essentially rules out anything we would consider long-range. It also implies taking an active role, which is why I can't consider "sitting in a tree stand waiting for an animal to come to the feed you laid out for it" to be hunting. Much like English hunting, where you pay the landowner and he has his game warden drive you out to the field they keep the deer in, you shoot one, then go and wait in the library to sip sherry, while the game warden dresses it for you, then drives you back to your Rangerover.

But long-range taking of game is a thing, there are several Youtube channels where they don't shoot anything if it's closer than a few hundred meters.


What tree stand were you using to make that observation because in general people use blinds with feed not tree stands. Infact i don't know anybody that has used a treestand with feed.

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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 30 Nov 2021, 9:11 pm

bladeracer wrote:
mchughcb wrote:So they have already found remains at Grants.

Going to be interesting how the old bloke died. And more interesting why.


I agree. Killing two people in an argument is possible, and even setting fire to their gear in a poor attempt to conceal it, but then taking the risk to move the bodies so far away just seems weird.


Not weird at all, far harder to prove murder when you don't actually have any bodies as the case then relies on circumstantial evidence.

Remember they need to prove you did it deliberately and intended to kill the person's without lawful excuse to the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2021, 10:47 pm

mchughcb wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:Long range target shooting is a thing but I never new long range hunting was a thing.


It's not really. Hunting implies getting close to your quarry, which essentially rules out anything we would consider long-range. It also implies taking an active role, which is why I can't consider "sitting in a tree stand waiting for an animal to come to the feed you laid out for it" to be hunting. Much like English hunting, where you pay the landowner and he has his game warden drive you out to the field they keep the deer in, you shoot one, then go and wait in the library to sip sherry, while the game warden dresses it for you, then drives you back to your Rangerover.

But long-range taking of game is a thing, there are several Youtube channels where they don't shoot anything if it's closer than a few hundred meters.


What tree stand were you using to make that observation because in general people use blinds with feed not tree stands. Infact i don't know anybody that has used a treestand with feed.

Here's the legend Noel https://youtu.be/xVwvLQXN6ko

Here's the not a pro https://youtu.be/59NWr25b2qQ


I didn't know anybody in Australia even used feed to bring game in. I know it's done with ferals, but it's not legal to lure deer, at least in Victoria.

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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2021, 10:49 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
mchughcb wrote:So they have already found remains at Grants.

Going to be interesting how the old bloke died. And more interesting why.


I agree. Killing two people in an argument is possible, and even setting fire to their gear in a poor attempt to conceal it, but then taking the risk to move the bodies so far away just seems weird.


Not weird at all, far harder to prove murder when you don't actually have any bodies as the case then relies on circumstantial evidence.

Remember they need to prove you did it deliberately and intended to kill the person's without lawful excuse to the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.


No, removing the bodies is not unusual. Transporting them so far at the time of bushfire road closures and patrols seems to be bloody risky.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by womble » 01 Dec 2021, 2:59 am

Speculation is that he took them to an area he was very familiar with.
They know his life inside out. Probably including every area he’s ever camped and those frequented most regularly.
I don’t think he’s opened his mouth at all and they questioned him for 4 days. Said nothing at the hearing.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Blr243 » 01 Dec 2021, 2:58 pm

A very awful experience for people gone missing. Weekend camping trips are something we really look forward to ... nature is spose to be a wonderful experience......I like to think, camped in the middle of nowhere, just minding my own business , that I’m safe , and nothing, other than rain flies and mozzies will give me a hard time
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by mchughcb » 01 Dec 2021, 3:06 pm

Blr243 wrote:A very awful experience for people gone missing. Weekend camping trips are something we really look forward to ... nature is spose to be a wonderful experience......I like to think, camped in the middle of nowhere, just minding my own business , that I’m safe , and nothing, other than rain flies and mozzies will give me a hard time


True, but something bad happened probably because people weren't minding their own business. I have my own theory but I'll wait until the coronial inquiry.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by womble » 01 Dec 2021, 3:09 pm

So long as you’re not a backpacker you’ll be fine.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Oldbloke » 01 Dec 2021, 4:34 pm

Sooo, for "game" feeding or baiting is not to my knowledge allowed in Victoria.
And no hunting, shooting after dark on public land. No Spot lights, or NV.

Screenshot_20211201-172546_DuckDuckGo.jpg
Screenshot_20211201-172546_DuckDuckGo.jpg (253.12 KiB) Viewed 7201 times



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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 01 Dec 2021, 5:42 pm

Yep, correct for game animals, which in Victoria is deer, plus the game birds during duck season. Feral or pest animals can be lured to bait for shooting. And can be spotlighted or shot at night, but not within deer habitat, which covers most public land.


Oldbloke wrote:Sooo, for "game" feeding or baiting is not to my knowledge allowed in Victoria.
And no hunting, shooting after dark on public land. No Spot lights, or NV.

Screenshot_20211201-172546_DuckDuckGo.jpg



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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 02 Dec 2021, 7:47 am

bladeracer wrote:No, removing the bodies is not unusual. Transporting them so far at the time of bushfire road closures and patrols seems to be bloody risky.


You need some perspective here, we are talking about moving them less then 50kms not 500kms in one of the most remote areas of the state. Moving them away from an area with other campers nearby to a even more secluded area in the middle of the night.

You would have zero chance of even coming across another person let alone getting stopped and your vehicle searched in the middle of the night in such a remote area,

So why is it bloody risky as you claim.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by womble » 02 Dec 2021, 8:24 am

Transporting murdered dead bodies carries with it inherent risks imho
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2021, 10:32 am

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:No, removing the bodies is not unusual. Transporting them so far at the time of bushfire road closures and patrols seems to be bloody risky.


You need some perspective here, we are talking about moving them less then 50kms not 500kms in one of the most remote areas of the state. Moving them away from an area with other campers nearby to a even more secluded area in the middle of the night.

You would have zero chance of even coming across another person let alone getting stopped and your vehicle searched in the middle of the night in such a remote area,

So why is it bloody risky as you claim.


Because roads were blocked due to bushfires and these ultra remote areas had witnesses (others caught up in the road closures) watching him having difficulty turning his vehicle around with a trailer on the narrow road, in the dark. It was a huge risk if he'd gotten bogged or trapped by fire control, and somebody offered to help him. They may well have wound up in the trailer themselves. I'm not aware that any other campers were in the immediate area.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 02 Dec 2021, 11:07 am

womble wrote:Transporting murdered dead bodies carries with it inherent risks imho


This is your cognitive biases at play, it's very common to have primary and secondary murder scenes, but extremely rare that the person is caught moving the body between them.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 02 Dec 2021, 11:18 am

bladeracer wrote:Because roads were blocked due to bushfires and these ultra remote areas had witnesses (others caught up in the road closures) watching him having difficulty turning his vehicle around with a trailer on the narrow road, in the dark. It was a huge risk if he'd gotten bogged or trapped by fire control, and somebody offered to help him. They may well have wound up in the trailer themselves. I'm not aware that any other campers were in the immediate area.


Because the roads where blocked would lessen the risk of a vehicle search as frankly you would have more important things to be doing then random vehicle searched in the middle of the night in a remote area with bush fire threat.

I am sure you have helped someone who has been bogged or stuck before, did you search their vehicle when helping them?

There were a number of different parties camping in the area.

Also the burnt out camp site was found at 2pm the next day after they went missing by other campers.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2021, 11:39 am

Did I say anything about searching any vehicles?
There could be anything that the murderer overlooked that might catch somebody's eye, that might lead to his capture, either immediately or later on. Taking the bodies with him leaves an evidence trail that ties him to the victims and the scene. Even if it were never discovered, that trail exists, that wouldn't exist otherwise.

I don't see how anybody can argue that it was not a very risky decision to make in the circumstances.

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Because roads were blocked due to bushfires and these ultra remote areas had witnesses (others caught up in the road closures) watching him having difficulty turning his vehicle around with a trailer on the narrow road, in the dark. It was a huge risk if he'd gotten bogged or trapped by fire control, and somebody offered to help him. They may well have wound up in the trailer themselves. I'm not aware that any other campers were in the immediate area.


Because the roads where blocked would lessen the risk of a vehicle search as frankly you would have more important things to be doing then random vehicle searched in the middle of the night in a remote area with bush fire threat.

I am sure you have helped someone who has been bogged or stuck before, did you search their vehicle when helping them?

There were a number of different parties camping in the area.

Also the burnt out camp site was found at 2pm the next day after they went missing by other campers.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2021, 11:49 am

Fionn wrote:
womble wrote:Transporting murdered dead bodies carries with it inherent risks imho


This is your cognitive biases at play, it's very common to have primary and secondary murder scenes, but extremely rare that the person is caught moving the body between them.


Yes, very common, but usually a choice made because the circumstances make it relatively unlikely to cause any issues during the move.

Extremely rare doesn't make it less risky.

How many times have killers been identified because of things that became apparent because they decided to attempt to remove the bodies from the scene? How many killers have been caught on CCTV moving evidence, that wouldn't have been looked at twice if they hadn't made that choice? People noticed or filmed moving vehicles, wheelie bins, or suitcases at unusual times or in unusual places. Attempting to remove bodies from a crime scene surreptitiously always amplifies the risk of being caught, identified, or leaving additional evidence that wouldn't otherwise exist. The killer has to weigh that risk against the risk of leaving the bodies where they'll be discovered more easily or quickly, but with less of an evidentiary trail tying the scene back to him. There is no point removing the bodies to somewhere they'll never be recovered from, if you drop the SD card that you recorded the murders on at the scene with your fingerprints on it...
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 02 Dec 2021, 3:52 pm

bladeracer wrote:Did I say anything about searching any vehicles?
There could be anything that the murderer overlooked that might catch somebody's eye, that might lead to his capture, either immediately or later on. Taking the bodies with him leaves an evidence trail that ties him to the victims and the scene. Even if it were never discovered, that trail exists, that wouldn't exist otherwise.

I don't see how anybody can argue that it was not a very risky decision to make in the circumstances.


No you didn't say anything about searching vehicles, the issues you raised here don't change depending on whether or not you are carry bodies, so I gave you credit that you meant this, as it only does if the vehicles are searched and you are found with them, hence why I raised it.

Every single action someone takes leaves a evidence trail, so your point is well pointless. What he has achieved by moving the bodies, is delayed a murder investigation, removed a primary murder crime scene, hidden a secondary crime scene, removed evidence of the crime(bodies), removed information and any evidence on how the victims died and introduced doubt in what took place.

Also remember hanging around an active crime scene is a proven way, many many people get caught, the little interaction you have with it the better and if you have interacted with it burn it to the ground to destroy any evidence of the crime and what you may have left.

Clearly the guy is far smarter then you, seeing you can't understand the basic reasoning behind it.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 02 Dec 2021, 4:07 pm

bladeracer wrote: Yes, very common, but usually a choice made because the circumstances make it relatively unlikely to cause any issues during the move.


Clearly it didn't cause any issues, as the bodies hadn't and most likely wouldn't have been found until he gave up the location.

bladeracer wrote:Extremely rare doesn't make it less risky.


Um yes it does, surely you have done some formal risk assessment training at some point in your life?

The 2 main points of rating a risk is likelihood of the risk happening and consequence if the risk happened.

Extremely rare makes the likelihood well extremely rare, so by definition a lower risk.

bladeracer wrote:How many times have killers been identified because of things that became apparent because they decided to attempt to remove the bodies from the scene? How many killers have been caught on CCTV moving evidence, that wouldn't have been looked at twice if they hadn't made that choice? People noticed or filmed moving vehicles, wheelie bins, or suitcases at unusual times or in unusual places.


Some, but its circumstance evidence, that by it self doesn't prove much at all if anything at all in isolation.

Remember the killer was found due to being in the area, not because he was moving bodies.

At the point the photo was taken he didn't have the bodies with him, they had already been disposed off.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2021, 4:14 pm

You appear to be agreeing with me while proclaiming me to be wrong and you to be right. You don't need to search vehicles to discover evidence, though evidence can certainly be obvious if the killer has not been very careful in concealing it. Anybody that has moved a large bleeding animal inside a vehicle knows this, blood gets everywhere, very easily. I'm talking about being witnessed behaving suspiciously in the area, which appears to have been fundamental to placing suspicion on him, so how you can deny the risk is ludicrous. If he had merely left the area like any other camper, it's likely he never would've been remembered. He messed up by trying to leave via a closed road, and having to make a very difficult u-turn, with a trailer, in the dark in front of other witnesses that were simply waiting for the road to be reopened. If he had merely joined the queue it's likely nobody would've associated him with the crime at all. I'm guessing he wasn't comfortable joining the queue with two bodies in his vehicle, thus proving, to me at least, that he screwed up by trying to take them so far away from the scene at that time. Doing so was clearly extremely risky...



Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Did I say anything about searching any vehicles?
There could be anything that the murderer overlooked that might catch somebody's eye, that might lead to his capture, either immediately or later on. Taking the bodies with him leaves an evidence trail that ties him to the victims and the scene. Even if it were never discovered, that trail exists, that wouldn't exist otherwise.

I don't see how anybody can argue that it was not a very risky decision to make in the circumstances.


No you didn't say anything about searching vehicles, the issues you raised here don't change depending on whether or not you are carry bodies, so I gave you credit that you meant this, as it only does if the vehicles are searched and you are found with them, hence why I raised it.

Every single action someone takes leaves a evidence trail, so your point is well pointless. What he has achieved by moving the bodies, is delayed a murder investigation, removed a primary murder crime scene, hidden a secondary crime scene, removed evidence of the crime(bodies), removed information and any evidence on how the victims died and introduced doubt in what took place.

Also remember hanging around an active crime scene is a proven way, many many people get caught, the little interaction you have with it the better and if you have interacted with it burn it to the ground to destroy any evidence of the crime and what you may have left.

Clearly the guy is far smarter then you, seeing you can't understand the basic reasoning behind it.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by Fionn » 02 Dec 2021, 5:02 pm

I am not agreeing with you, it's just when I point out your flawed reasoning, you shift your argument instead of giving a counter one or admitting your errors in reasoning, so eventually you come around to the logic pointed out in my posts which makes it seem that way.

You do it a lot of the time in your different posts when challenged.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2021, 5:49 pm

Fionn wrote:I am not agreeing with you, it's just when I point out your flawed reasoning, you shift your argument instead of giving a counter one or admitting your errors in reasoning, so eventually you come around to the logic pointed out in my posts which makes it seem that way.

You do it a lot of the time in your different posts when challenged.


Where have I shifted my argument? I haven't moved away at all from moving the bodies being a very stupid thing to do in these circumstances.

I am certainly open to having my view changed when presented with a good argument, but you haven't offered any argument here. I said it was risky to have moved the bodies so far from the scene while roads where closed, I stand by that. As that appears to be what put the focus onto him I can't see how you can logically claim otherwise.

I just read back through the thread and it was you that diverted my comment about the risk of moving the bodies to an argument about the general merits of removing a body, which is a different argument.
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Re: Wonnangatta murders

Post by bladeracer » 02 Dec 2021, 5:59 pm

Fionn wrote:Clearly it didn't cause any issues, as the bodies hadn't and most likely wouldn't have been found until he gave up the location.


Didn't cause any issues????
How did they identify him to be able to ask him where the bodies were I wonder, if it didn't cause any issues...
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