Live ammo on film set?

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 30 Oct 2021, 8:04 pm

Bill wrote:You seem triggered by Baldwin bladeracer, try an look at it objectively. Imagine a 17 yr old Actress was the one who was rehearsing and she was the one who pulled the trigger.....


I'm sure lots of things appear to you to be very different to reality, don't let it bother you.
A 17-year-old would be a minor...
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 30 Oct 2021, 8:14 pm

Bill wrote:You seem triggered by Baldwin bladeracer, try an look at it objectively. Imagine a 17 yr old Actress was the one who was rehearsing and she was the one who pulled the trigger.....


Good example
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Die Judicii » 30 Oct 2021, 11:16 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Bill wrote:You seem triggered by Baldwin bladeracer, try an look at it objectively. Imagine a 17 yr old Actress was the one who was rehearsing and she was the one who pulled the trigger.....


Good example


All hypothesis,,,,,,,,,,,, but in reality ????
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Tiger650 » 30 Oct 2021, 11:55 pm

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Oct 2021, 4:42 am

Oldbloke wrote:Perhaps, simply no safety procedures in place. In any case they were not followed.


Story is now starting to look simply like a "debacle".

And there have been plenty of movies where kids shoot the bad guy.

Now everyone,

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Oct 2021, 5:01 am

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bigrich » 31 Oct 2021, 5:41 am

womble wrote:Because the movie requires Alec to handle and operate guns. Product placement to market and promote particular makes and models of guns perhaps helps fund the production.
However Alec dose’nt have any knowledge or respect for guns. And he dose’nt want to know. Therefore we hire people to take responsibility for him.
In a worst case scenario we have a ready made patsy and media release ready to go, because Alec is a VIP and the rules don’t apply to him.
Alec is the asset with value here. Without him there is no box office return. He is the brand and the image that must not be sullied. He has a status that allows to him to live free of consequence. He has minders and fixers to handle anything and everything.
The question is are there any limitations on this. Probably not for the right price.


i suspect this to be a accurate assessment . AB will probably reach a out of court settlement . the young female armourer will end up being the patsy . she probably didn't have enough front to implement the rules with ego trippers like AB . as others have already stated, there are rules and codes of conduct for handling firearms in movies . the armourer is responsable for this . she'll do jail, AB will pay compensation , and hollywood will roll on as before . and in a year nobody will remember :cry:
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by cz515 » 31 Oct 2021, 8:03 am



From both those articles it's apparent AB is not going to be held solely responsible.

And which him being one of the producers...I wonder if that was a "fancy" title given to him instead of his full pay cheque. If it was a very low budget title I wonder how they could afford AB.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Blr243 » 31 Oct 2021, 8:22 am

Old blokes second link provides clear professional opinion on how careless and irresponsible the mob on the set were ....they are in a ton of trouble
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Bill » 31 Oct 2021, 8:44 am

womble wrote:Because the movie requires Alec to handle and operate guns. Product placement to market and promote particular makes and models of guns perhaps helps fund the production.
However Alec doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns. And he doesn't want to know. Therefore we hire people to take responsibility for him.
In a worst case scenario we have a ready made patsy and media release ready to go, because Alec is a VIP and the rules don’t apply to him.
Alec is the asset with value here. Without him there is no box office return. He is the brand and the image that must not be sullied. He has a status that allows to him to live free of consequence. He has minders and fixers to handle anything and everything.
The question is are there any limitations on this. Probably not for the right price.


Womble where did you get Alec Baldwin doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns from ??

Alec Baldwins father was a Marine and an expert marksman, who was also shot during a training exercises and medically discharged. He went onto coach high school rifle teams. Lead exposure is what is speculated to have killed him from range time. I'd imagine Baldwin was very familar with firearms. A life time of working with competent Armourers most likely contributed to his trust in the inexperienced 24yr old Armourer, big mistake.

AB was one of 7 producers on the film. The film's plot follows a 13-year-old orphan who goes on the run with his long-estranged grandfather Baldwin after he is sentenced to death for the accidental killing of a local rancher

If AB hated guns so much he would hardly be making a film that glorifies violence and firearms....... Gun control is a whole different issue.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by disco stu » 31 Oct 2021, 9:15 am

The second link OB posted seems to say the armourer wasn't on set due to covid or something.

Sounds like a lot of complacency going on there, simple checks weren't being done, and I still get the impression that those in charge were trying to go over the head of the armourer. I just hope it isn't all pinned on the armourer, as it sounds like there were many people not following procedures
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 9:33 am

bigrich wrote:
womble wrote:Because the movie requires Alec to handle and operate guns. Product placement to market and promote particular makes and models of guns perhaps helps fund the production.
However Alec dose’nt have any knowledge or respect for guns. And he dose’nt want to know. Therefore we hire people to take responsibility for him.
In a worst case scenario we have a ready made patsy and media release ready to go, because Alec is a VIP and the rules don’t apply to him.
Alec is the asset with value here. Without him there is no box office return. He is the brand and the image that must not be sullied. He has a status that allows to him to live free of consequence. He has minders and fixers to handle anything and everything.
The question is are there any limitations on this. Probably not for the right price.


i suspect this to be a accurate assessment . AB will probably reach a out of court settlement . the young female armourer will end up being the patsy . she probably didn't have enough front to implement the rules with ego trippers like AB . as others have already stated, there are rules and codes of conduct for handling firearms in movies . the armourer is responsable for this . she'll do jail, AB will pay compensation , and hollywood will roll on as before . and in a year nobody will remember :cry:


The armourer has a responsibility to implement safe procedures, and ensure they are followed. But just like laws, she can't hold a gun to anybody's head to make them comply.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 9:35 am

It was not "a big mistake" to trust his armourer that a firearm was safe to fire directly at people, it was his own negligence to not check for himself that he wasn't about to kill anybody.

And you are now suggesting that AB is a firearm enthusiast?

Bill wrote:
womble wrote:Because the movie requires Alec to handle and operate guns. Product placement to market and promote particular makes and models of guns perhaps helps fund the production.
However Alec doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns. And he doesn't want to know. Therefore we hire people to take responsibility for him.
In a worst case scenario we have a ready made patsy and media release ready to go, because Alec is a VIP and the rules don’t apply to him.
Alec is the asset with value here. Without him there is no box office return. He is the brand and the image that must not be sullied. He has a status that allows to him to live free of consequence. He has minders and fixers to handle anything and everything.
The question is are there any limitations on this. Probably not for the right price.


Womble where did you get Alec Baldwin doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns from ??

Alec Baldwins father was a Marine and an expert marksman, who was also shot during a training exercises and medically discharged. He went onto coach high school rifle teams. Lead exposure is what is speculated to have killed him from range time. I'd imagine Baldwin was very familar with firearms. A life time of working with competent Armourers most likely contributed to his trust in the inexperienced 24yr old Armourer, big mistake.

AB was one of 7 producers on the film. The film's plot follows a 13-year-old orphan who goes on the run with his long-estranged grandfather Baldwin after he is sentenced to death for the accidental killing of a local rancher

If AB hated guns so much he would hardly be making a film that glorifies violence and firearms....... Gun control is a whole different issue.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by disco stu » 31 Oct 2021, 9:48 am

Especially if the armourer wasn't even there, if the article is correct
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Oct 2021, 9:52 am

To me looks like the "blame" will be spead.

The producer is the "hirer and firer. Or if you like the "manager". Looking after the $ to I suspect. Producer is the boss.

So the producer is the boss, so Armourer reports to him. Producer is also the "shooter".

Huge conflict of interest here.

The business structure is a major concern IMHO.

Possible scenario:
Armourer (HR) says, "don't do this or that" , "I need to check firearms and correct ammo."

Boss (AB) says, "no time, costs too much, fuc off".

Young inexperienced armourer does what she is told, needs the work.

Result, bang, dead camera woman.

The old "cost cutting" costs lives, again and again.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Bill » 31 Oct 2021, 11:04 am

Cool story Oldbloke but you clearly arent ready enough of the facts, as they say you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.
When a guy is digging his own grave, you don’t fight him for the shovel.

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by womble » 31 Oct 2021, 11:08 am

Bill wrote:
womble wrote:Because the movie requires Alec to handle and operate guns. Product placement to market and promote particular makes and models of guns perhaps helps fund the production.
However Alec doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns. And he doesn't want to know. Therefore we hire people to take responsibility for him.
In a worst case scenario we have a ready made patsy and media release ready to go, because Alec is a VIP and the rules don’t apply to him.
Alec is the asset with value here. Without him there is no box office return. He is the brand and the image that must not be sullied. He has a status that allows to him to live free of consequence. He has minders and fixers to handle anything and everything.
The question is are there any limitations on this. Probably not for the right price.


Womble where did you get Alec Baldwin doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns from ??

Alec Baldwins father was a Marine and an expert marksman, who was also shot during a training exercises and medically discharged. He went onto coach high school rifle teams. Lead exposure is what is speculated to have killed him from range time. I'd imagine Baldwin was very familar with firearms. A life time of working with competent Armourers most likely contributed to his trust in the inexperienced 24yr old Armourer, big mistake.

AB was one of 7 producers on the film. The film's plot follows a 13-year-old orphan who goes on the run with his long-estranged grandfather Baldwin after he is sentenced to death for the accidental killing of a local rancher

If AB hated guns so much he would hardly be making a film that glorifies violence and firearms....... Gun control is a whole different issue.


Point taken Bill, in which i stand corrected.
I just don’t feel it excuses his mistake though.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 12:42 pm

AB doesn't hate guns, he hates that people other than him are allowed access to them...


Bill wrote:
womble wrote:Because the movie requires Alec to handle and operate guns. Product placement to market and promote particular makes and models of guns perhaps helps fund the production.
However Alec doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns. And he doesn't want to know. Therefore we hire people to take responsibility for him.
In a worst case scenario we have a ready made patsy and media release ready to go, because Alec is a VIP and the rules don’t apply to him.
Alec is the asset with value here. Without him there is no box office return. He is the brand and the image that must not be sullied. He has a status that allows to him to live free of consequence. He has minders and fixers to handle anything and everything.
The question is are there any limitations on this. Probably not for the right price.


Womble where did you get Alec Baldwin doesn't have any knowledge or respect for guns from ??

Alec Baldwins father was a Marine and an expert marksman, who was also shot during a training exercises and medically discharged. He went onto coach high school rifle teams. Lead exposure is what is speculated to have killed him from range time. I'd imagine Baldwin was very familar with firearms. A life time of working with competent Armourers most likely contributed to his trust in the inexperienced 24yr old Armourer, big mistake.

AB was one of 7 producers on the film. The film's plot follows a 13-year-old orphan who goes on the run with his long-estranged grandfather Baldwin after he is sentenced to death for the accidental killing of a local rancher

If AB hated guns so much he would hardly be making a film that glorifies violence and firearms....... Gun control is a whole different issue.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 12:48 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Bill wrote:You seem triggered by Baldwin bladeracer, try an look at it objectively. Imagine a 17 yr old Actress was the one who was rehearsing and she was the one who pulled the trigger.....


Good example


A very poor example in my opinion. Responsibility for the actions of a minor would change this incident entirely. I have been expecting the "what if it were your child?" argument from Bill since the beginning, very surprised it took so long...

A better example would be "what if it were your brother, or adult child?", but my view would be the same, as it would be if they killed somebody while driving a vehicle. Sadly, too many parents are left with the resultant anguish of their child doing really dumb things that took somebody's life.

Do any US states not allow minors to handle firearms, pistols in particular?
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Bill » 31 Oct 2021, 1:51 pm

bladeracer you seem to miss the whole concept of ' Acting ' and the fact that pistols are pointed at and in the direction of camera's and other directors/assistants/actors.

Your opinion on cupability has been so far off the mark from what the real Movie industries armourers think, maybe its time to sit this one out buddy :thumbsup:
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by cz515 » 31 Oct 2021, 3:30 pm

No... I am finding this argument very interesting
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Oct 2021, 4:34 pm

Bill wrote:Cool story Oldbloke but you clearly arent ready enough of the facts, as they say you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.


All I did was suggest a possible scenario.
I'm ready to see/read any facts. What have I missed mate?
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Bill » 31 Oct 2021, 5:02 pm

Nuthing Oldbloke, its a sad incident/work place accident. I dont think there is much more worth adding til the investigation into how live ammo ended up on the set. :thumbsup:
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 7:27 pm

Bill wrote:Nuthing Oldbloke, its a sad incident/work place accident. I dont think there is much more worth adding til the investigation into how live ammo ended up on the set. :thumbsup:


Has it been confirmed as fact that it was a live round yet?
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 7:31 pm

Pistols are not routinely pointed at people by actors or crew. When a scene does require a camera to look directly into the muzzle of a firearm, very strict measures are implemented, including protective barriers and remote camera control.

My view seems to align very closely with everything I've seen from the experts that have been interviewed or offered opinions, so I have no idea which experts you're talking about...

Bill wrote:bladeracer you seem to miss the whole concept of ' Acting ' and the fact that pistols are pointed at and in the direction of camera's and other directors/assistants/actors.

Your opinion on cupability has been so far off the mark from what the real Movie industries armourers think, maybe its time to sit this one out buddy :thumbsup:
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by boingk » 31 Oct 2021, 8:42 pm

I'll just reiterate my earlier post here:

boingk wrote:So, I've done a bit of reading on this. A few industry experts have weighed into the fight and said some pretty logical and common sense things;

1) No live ammo on set, period.

2) No people in the line of fire. A badly manufactured blank, poor quality brass, barrel obstruction of any kind, or god forbid a live round (as suspected in this case) will lead to projectiles leaving the barrel with potential to cause injury/death.

3) Ballistic shields. These can range from simple flat perspex shields right through to elaborate ballistic cages for the camera and associated crew. They should be in place regardless of your positioning to the firearm in case of ricochet, shrapnel, or unintended projectile.

4) Checking of the firearm should be conducted in presence of all the people involved for the scene. It should start unloaded and be loaded with blanks. All personell should be given the chance to view this, or inspect under supervision of the armourer. Again, blanks only.

With those sorts of checks in place you shouldn't have injuries. The fact remains that NONE of these procedures were in place, or at least followed for this scene.

I'd wager there will be lawsuits for AB the actor, the producer, the production company itself as well as the armourer.

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 9:14 pm

Exactly.
I think Bill loses track of which side of an argument he's pushing though, makes it difficult to follow.


boingk wrote:I'll just reiterate my earlier post here:

boingk wrote:So, I've done a bit of reading on this. A few industry experts have weighed into the fight and said some pretty logical and common sense things;

1) No live ammo on set, period.

2) No people in the line of fire. A badly manufactured blank, poor quality brass, barrel obstruction of any kind, or god forbid a live round (as suspected in this case) will lead to projectiles leaving the barrel with potential to cause injury/death.

3) Ballistic shields. These can range from simple flat perspex shields right through to elaborate ballistic cages for the camera and associated crew. They should be in place regardless of your positioning to the firearm in case of ricochet, shrapnel, or unintended projectile.

4) Checking of the firearm should be conducted in presence of all the people involved for the scene. It should start unloaded and be loaded with blanks. All personell should be given the chance to view this, or inspect under supervision of the armourer. Again, blanks only.

With those sorts of checks in place you shouldn't have injuries. The fact remains that NONE of these procedures were in place, or at least followed for this scene.

I'd wager there will be lawsuits for AB the actor, the producer, the production company itself as well as the armourer.

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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Oct 2021, 10:38 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Bill wrote:Nuthing Oldbloke, its a sad incident/work place accident. I dont think there is much more worth adding til the investigation into how live ammo ended up on the set. :thumbsup:


Has it been confirmed as fact that it was a live round yet?


There was a mention (in one of the links) that the pistol was picked up shortly after the incident.

If I recall correctly.
There was 1 normal fired case and 2 inerts/dummies in the chambers.
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Oct 2021, 11:02 pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-30/ ... /100581016

About half way down.

"After the shooting, Mr Halls found the black revolver on a church pew, brought it to Ms Gutierrez and told her to open it so he could see what was inside.

There were at least four dummy bullet casings, with the small hole in the side, he told detectives. But there was one empty casing that had no hole."
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Re: Live ammo on film set?

Post by wanneroo » 01 Nov 2021, 3:04 am

I heard a few clips of Baldwin where he pulled off the road from his hideout in Vermont to talk to the ravenous media and no surprise. He was his usual angry, aggressive self consumed with solipsism, took no accountability or responsibility, just a horrendous accident that was one in a trillion.
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