Canada to ban sale of handguns

[cz515]

I'd look into it more, the criminal trade in firearms is lucrative and extensive in Australia, I'm not sure you are aware how bad it is. Several of the newspapers in Australia have published extensive expose type articles on the extent of the illegal gun trade. Australian police even say some of the muslim bike gangs have anti tank rockets in their possession.

That's more fake news then real. What i do see is when crims go shooting it usually a handgun or a shotgun. When they are caught its at most an arsenal of old ruffles and home made guns and pistols. I have almost never heard of semi auto of any type.

But more importantly we see maybe one instance a month across Australia of any firearm related offence. While sure your population is 10x ours how many instances of firearm related offences are there inb the usa every day?

[Robin]

What is happening is the US is very sad, shooting up any place is horrible , however shooting up a school and hospital is just plain Evil , kids are learning , they are growing, they are living a life that we used to live, hospitals are there to help us when in need.

We have not has a mass shooting since Port Arthur, so what has changed and why are we so different, banning of some guns may have helped a little bit, however that wouldn't be enough to stop mass shootings , some of our rules are harsh and that may have helped a little bit more, crims have illegal guns, however they tend to be shooting each other up rather then commit mass shootings.

In parts of the US they carry guns for protection, too be honest, I think they are just paranoid and I haven't heard of a mass shooting that they have stopped, so thats not really a solution.

Maybe the US needs to make the requirements tougher , redo the way they assess new gun owners and existing gun owners.

They could make schools like a army compound and have armed guards but all thats doing is saying, they wont change.

The other sad note is that the non shooting public looks at the US and sees whats happening and try to get the rules harder, and you know what, if we have anoughter mass shooting here, what do you think will happen, we will all be hunting with gell blasters.

[Oldbloke]

Some US stat's

US Rate is 12.21
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... a-by-state

AU rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

https://www.safehome.org/resources/crim ... -by-state/

Just added the "rates". US is through the roof.

[bladeracer]

Not sure if that's the right question to ask.

Perhaps:

If fully auto firearms are banned from use by citizens, will it stop criminals from getting them? Will it prevent deaths?

A. Some criminals will still get them, some will not. Some will decide the penalty if caught is too great and get a 5 shot BA instead, perhaps do less harm.

Full auto has been effectively banned for many years in AU. (1945?) Never seen one. I imagine Crims would find it hard to get one along with a few mags and heap of ammo.

Yes, some of our laws are pretty stupid, and pointless, but most OK, IMO.

The most famous relatively recent full-auto shooting I can recall is the NorCo Shootout, with illegal automatic rifles, but I'm sure there have been other events that I haven't heard of yet, or have forgotten.

Full-auto is effectively banned here for shooters, but collectors and theatrical armourers still have them (there is a guy in Victoria that has a Bren Gun for re-enacting apparently - I chatted with a guy that used to make his blank ammo for it as I was looking for some empty .303 blank brass). So if criminals specifically wanted full-auto they could conceivably steal them, but I would think it'd be easier to order them and have them brought into the country illegally with other illegal firearms, or have somebody manufacture them from scratch, as was happening here just a few years ago. There have also been full-auto firearms handed in in amnesties here, so they certainly exist in illegal channels (the Owen Gun handed in recently should have gone into a museum) which I doubt could ever be linked to any criminal activity. Simply being a full-auto firearm doesn't make it a threat to public safety if it is not being used for that purpose, just as unregistered firearms are not a public safety issue if they're not being used for criminal purposes.

I would say the opposite, some of our laws are sensible, most are ridiculous and simply exist to make life difficult for firearm owners - with zero interest in improving public safety. Our laws pre-'96 worked better and were less complicated, and didn't presume we are all criminals merely waiting for opportunities.

Our laws are not the issue though. We have tons of laws already, and when these events happen, it turns out that the authorities let us down by not enforcing the existing laws - Bryant, Edwards and Tarrant spring immediately to mind. Bryant was not only given a licence, he also managed to buy an AR15 that had been handed in to Police for destruction years earlier, despite having the IQ of a young child. The important part that is always ignored is that these people have a history of societal issues, issues that were recognised by their own peers and community members, but never acted upon years before they caused these tragedies - that is what we need to fix.

[bladeracer]

Firearms are specificy designed for the purpose of killing. Some conveniently forget that.

Firearms may have been originally invented for killing, I'm not sure though, perhaps they originated as a means of launching fireworks or something and found their way into hunting and warfare incidentally.

But a great many held in civilian hands are never used to kill anything but paper and steel, particularly here in Australia, virtually all handguns owned by civilians here for example only ever get aimed at paper or steel targets.

To claim that the primary purpose of all firearms is to kill things is significantly flawed. Even many of those that are manufactured for that very purpose never actually get used for it.

[bladeracer]

Blade, so you saying that enacting rules will not solve anything. So why do we (including usa) have drivers license, licence for trades, license to fly a plane, sail a ship etc etc etc. Let's just have no rules in the society.

While rules will not fix everything, enforcement means it makes the society overall better. Sure you will get the odd person who cannot get a b license due to continuous drink driving offences but it means that most people will not drink and drive, thus resulting in less accidents and deaths on the road.

Enacting reasonable laws will not stop gun violence overnight in the USA, it will likely take years, but think about the people and children who will not needlessly die every year. Put yourself in the parents shoes and think about it.

Having armed people does not work, because many areas where these shootings happen already have concealed carry laws. And if the country didn't have enough money to allow their police officer to do more then obe training shoots a year who is going to pay for so many school teachers to have regular training every year. Maybe they can charge people to send their children to school like a private school. Or maybe they can not have electric lights and use the money saved to pay for training for their teachers

Not once ever have I suggested having no laws at all. But we have had the Firearms Act here since 1958, and the laws have been increasingly tightened since then, will no measurable effect on public safety. I think we are well past the point that we can continue believing that adding more and more laws has any benefit to public safety. It is decades past the time we needed to start addressing the root causes of violence within our communities. There are reasons people choose to commit violent acts against their communities, we need to learn what creates those "reasons" and address those, then our firearm laws will be irrelevant.

The US has had firearm laws since 1934, and here we are today complaining about their huge firearm violence...so how helpful are these firearm laws exactly?

Jewish schools have been paying armed security here for decades without complaining about the expense, no reason it couldn't include all schools. I would rather know my kids are better protected when I put them under the care of somebody else for eight hours every weekday. As with insurance, you pay a premium for the peace of mind, hoping it never ever becomes necessary, but you don't stop paying the insurance.

I have had a torch clipped to my collar for years now, all day, every day. Other than some very hot nights, I even sleep with it on my collar. A couple days ago I dropped it and it stopped working, and I haven't replaced it yet. Last night we had a dog here trying to get into our rabbit and chicken cages, but could I find a bloody torch - no chance! It reminded me of this very situation, you always have insurance, even if you never ever have to use it - the day you stop is the day you'll probably need it. In September 1989 I decided to no longer comprehensively cover my bike, and three weeks later I got cleaned up by a woman taking her kid to a basketball game. Luckily, being her fault, her insurance paid for my bike. I never comprehensively insured a vehicle again, but I always understood that I could lose my bike or car at any time, and I was prepared to live with that since I could simply replace it with the money I hadn't wasted on insurance premiums. Would I be so blasé with a child's safety though...

[Oldbloke]

Firearms are specificy designed for the purpose of killing. Some conveniently forget that.

Firearms may have been originally invented for killing, I'm not sure though, perhaps they originated as a means of launching fireworks or something and found their way into hunting and warfare incidentally.

But a great many held in civilian hands are never used to kill anything but paper and steel, particularly here in Australia, virtually all handguns owned by civilians here for example only ever get aimed at paper or steel targets.

To claim that the primary purpose of all firearms is to kill things is significantly flawed. Even many of those that are manufactured for that very purpose never actually get used for it.

Sorry, but must disagree. They are designed to kill. To say otherwise is just silly. Use is a different matter.

However my point was that the politicians and the general public would consider that enough reason on its own to remove them from society.

Cars, aircraft and trucks, although they kill a lot of people are designed as transport. Transport is necessary for society. Death of people is an unintended result of its main use.

[bladeracer]

Sorry, but must disagree. They are designed to kill. To say otherwise is just silly. Use is a different matter.

However my point was that the politicians and the general public would consider that enough reason on its own to remove them from society.

Cars, aircraft and trucks, although they kill a lot of people are designed as transport. Transport is necessary for society. Death of people is an unintended result of its main use.

I'm bloody silly then as I just don't see any of my firearms ever killing anybody. I have quite a few firearms that were designed purely to fight wars, but I doubt any of them ever killed anybody, and they certainly never will while I own them. Some of my firearms are designed for hunting and killing animals, but it's a hell of stretch to assume they would ever be used against people. As a shooter and a hunter I just don't look at my firearms as machines designed to kill. I go out there to kill something, and I choose to use a firearm to do the job, others use bows, some use knives, some use traps, some use poisons - most of the population pay other people to kill things for them. Killing animals is a normal part of living, you can't blame the tools when they get put to other uses by people. And I think we actually can presume that poisons are designed purely to kill things, there's no grey area with those, and yet despite them being used to also deliberately kill people, they're still readily available on supermarket shelves. Knives were designed to kill things originally, but we use them for lots of non-violent purposes, the same as firearms.

Death of people is also an unintended use of most firearms in civilian hands, certainly very, very few people lawfully buy firearms for that purpose, many don't even intend to kill animals with them. Even in the US where many, many people own firearms for defence of themselves and others, they very, very rarely ever use them to kill anybody. Most of the people we actually arm specifically for that purpose, soldiers and LEO's never have to kill anybody either, they go their entire careers without trying to kill anybody.

Firearms are not the cause of violence. The vast majority of civilian-owned firearms will never, ever be used for violence. When they do get used this way they are merely the tools of a violent person. It's the violent people that are the issue, not the guns, knives, vehicles, poisons, explosives, clubs, or whatever they choose to use. The UK thought different so they made firearm ownership ridiculously difficult, and became a society terrorised with knife violence because they ignored the festering issues within the community that leads to the violence - and they still have firearm violence.

[bladeracer]

The most important issue I see, especially in the US, is that every time one of these tragedies gets deflected into an anti-gun issue we can guarantee it will never go anywhere - decades of history proves this. Gun control is a black hole of do-nothing, where all the anger and hurt from these events disappears into nothingness. Then it happens again and the same thing happens, because it is always deflected away from addressing the issues within our people, our friends, colleagues and families, having to admit that people are the problem, into a pointless argument about prohibiting people from being allowed to peacefully live their lives as they choose to.

The guns do not cause the violence but they sure as hell prevent us from seeing the problems behind the violence. What do we do after we ban all the guns and the violence continues unabated? That's what the UK has been asking itself for 34 years, while continuing to tighten firearm laws the whole time. They have had firearms laws since 1903 and now have over 200 knife homicides and over 40,000 knife attacks every year...I think they were actually safer with the firearms.

[bladeracer]

Simon Munslow just posted this today. It is a 2021 report done in NZ.

https://www.facebook.com/colfonz/photos/a.1663314017233712/3064368970461536/

"Police do not know source of 82% of illegal firearms - COLFO
Research has revealed that although Police claim that the source of illegal firearms is licensed firearm owners, it cannot find the source of 82% of the firearms it seizes - opening the possibility that they enter the country with drugs and other contraband.
The Council of Licenced Firearms Owners (COLFO) has written to Police Minister Poto Williams to advise that after two years' work it has discovered that the Police have insufficient evidence for claims that legal firearm owners are a major source of firearms to gangs and organised crime groups.
The revelation has undermined Police Commissioner Andrew Coster’s recent claim that Operation Tauwhiro exists because "our biggest concern is firearms stolen out of the lawful fleet".(1)
COLFO’s enquiry started in 2019 when the Police Association and then Commissioner Bush made the claim, based on documents originally presented to the 2017 Law and Order select committee.
The guidance given to the Select Committee stated "Sources of Illegally obtained firearms -Burglaries or theft from individuals or dealers’ premises is the primary source of illegally obtained firearms, followed by those sold to non-licensed people by legal owners or dealers."
COLFO requested information that supported the statement and were supplied with intelligence summary reports 2015 (Firearms and Organised Crime: Illicit Supply, Possession and Use) and 2016 (Firearms Availability in New Zealand). This report was based on a study of firearms from a 6-month period in 2015, which found only 10% came from licensed owners either through burglary(4%) or sourced from individuals illegally (6%).
In the decade of 2010-2020 the number of seized firearms was approximately 13,000. Based on the numbers from the 2015 study, about 780 would have been provided by licenced owners. OIA responses from Police show that about 300 (2%) of illegally owned firearms that police seized were found to be stolen, and were returned to their owners. Over the same 2010-2020 period there were 6,000 firearms stolen from approximately 2000 licenced owners - not even half of those were seized.
COLFO Spokesperson Hugh Devereux-Mack said the country’s biggest concern should be the hard to find, and possibly international sources of the 82% of all seized firearms.
"Our analysis of research conducted by Police, has found that the Police do not have evidence that the majority of criminal firearms come from licensed firearm owners (LFOs).
"They’re choosing to target licensed firearm owners because our community of law abiding, vetted citizens is the easiest place to look.
"There’s anecdotal evidence of smuggled firearms, and if other illegal substances can be imported, so can firearms," he said.
The 2016 report said "Burglary from licensed firearms owners is likely to be the primary source of firearms for criminals, although this has never been established definitively. " [our emphasis]. (2)
It is clear from the number of firearms being stolen, and those recovered and identified as coming from LFOs, that there are tens of thousands of firearms illegally possessed, and most must not originate from LFOs. These firearms exist outside the legal system and therefore police insistence that a register of legally held firearms would protect New Zealanders does not stand up to scrutiny.
"Police have made this claim repeatedly to the Prime Minister and other Ministers for policy development, to Select Committee reviews of legislation, and to the media and public to justify enforcement tactics.
The word ‘LIKELY’ makes a claim of probability. In intelligence circles familiar to Police, the probability assigned to ‘LIKELY’ is 50 - 70%, and means there is tangible direct evidence.
"Making claims without evidence is not what the public and Government expect of the Police. It is not acceptable in their daily enforcement work, and it is not acceptable in their input to Government policy. Given the findings contained within Police’s own reports, Police’s claim that licensed firearm owners are the likely source of criminal arms must end from this moment until they present real evidence," Devereux-Mack said.
Redacted papers were released to COLFO almost six months after asking in 2020.(3) These included the following reports.
New Zealand Police Intelligence Report - Firearms and Organised Crime: Illicit supply, possession and use [2014]
Firearms Availability in New Zealand [written by National Intelligence Centre in 2016]
Firearms Seizures in Canterbury District (2017)
Tamaki Makaurau Unlawful Possession of Firearms and Ammunition (2017)
The Prevalence of Unlawful Firearms in New Zealand (2018)
Non-Factory Firearms Exhibit Assessments by Police Armoury June - December 2018 (2019)
Implications of the Arms Act Amendments on the Gang Environment (2019) - Summary extract.
COLFO said it hoped Operation Tauwhiro would reveal new information that could lead to a reevaluation of the effective value of a firearms registry, but the result would not justify years of misleading Parliament, the Police Minister, Media and the public without evidence."

[womble]

You wont be changing their society and addressing deep seeded problems anytime soon.
What they are doing isn’t working, plain and simple.
Oldblokes stats are not so surprising . Most of it is consenting gangbangers.
It’s the sudden spike in school shootings that is dramatic, find your own graph.
They need a measured response to that. Ignoring it wont make it go away.
Anything is worth a try. Give kids probationary access. Give them clubs with membership mandated. Just having some friends would probably end all this. And you’d have a better control of monitoring red flags.
Still fits well into the 2nd amendment.
Actually fits perfectly and could end all debate.
I dont want to see the free states lose any rights. It’s and ideal we should all aspire to. I just want to see them live up to it.
Show us how its done in a responsible way.

[womble]

If you want to see the cause you have to look at the culprits. As disturbing as that is.
There’s a common theme there. They are all just Martin to some degree.
They werre’nt born evil. They are desperately lonely an emotionally immature. They are isolated, depressed and inevitably anger takes over. They are outsiders who dont fit in anywhere. Usually they suffer bullying from their peer groups.
Society needs to identify and reach out to them sooner. That’s everyone responsibility and everyone’s failure.
It’s not a problem we’ve solved here so we get no credit for that. We have however rendered them somewhat more inert. As in we dont arm them to the teeth with military hardware.

[bladeracer]

If you want to see the cause you have to look at the culprits. As disturbing as that is.
There’s a common theme there. They are all just Martin to some degree.
They werre’nt born evil. They are desperately lonely an emotionally immature. They are isolated, depressed and inevitably anger takes over. They are outsiders who dont fit in anywhere. Usually they suffer bullying from their peer groups.
Society needs to identify and reach out to them sooner. That’s everyone responsibility and everyone’s failure.
It’s not a problem we’ve solved here so we get no credit for that. We have however rendered them somewhat more inert. As in we dont arm them to the teeth with military hardware.

Very few societies have civilian access to military hardware, or are you referring to the same civilian firearms that we used to own here before '96, AK's, AR's and such? Do we have many crimes on record committed with lawfully-owned AK's and AR's before '96? I know of two Australian murders that were committed with Ruger 10/22's pre-'96, one included an illegal suppressor. I know Schwab used a Mini-14. As far as I'm aware he bought it "lawfully" in Brisbane, but as a visiting tourist I don't know if it was legal to buy firearms - it seems unlikely. Very, very few tragedies are committed with "military hardware", and when they are it usually involves explosive devices. Those societies that do allow access to "military hardware", by equipping parts of their society with the same systems used by their militaries don't have much of an issue with them being used in crime.

We only don't allow access to firearms after such issues have been identified, that is the issue, we are not helping people with issues before they cause issues for society. We need to better see the issues our community members are having, and address them.

[womble]

Semantics.
The 18 year old in Ulvade had an ar-15, tactical vest to fit extra mags, with armour plates, and over 1600 rounds.
He started accumulating his kit at the legal age of 16.
He’s not a hunter. He’s not a target shooter.
Never was.

[bladeracer]

Semantics.
The 18 year old in Ulvade had an ar-15, tactical vest to fit extra mags, with armour plates, and over 1600 rounds.
He started accumulating his kit at the legal age of 16.
He’s not a hunter. He’s not a target shooter.
Never was.

But he had no military hardware at all that I'm aware of. Militaries do not fight wars with AR15's.
I have lots of "tactical vests" and load-bearing rigs, it lets me tailor them to suit the type of hunting or shooting that I'm doing.

I don't think I've seen anybody claim he was a hunter or a shooter, or had any legitimate lawful purpose to own any firearms at all, though I see no relevance as he was allowed to own them if he chose to. The problem was he had internal issues, and has displayed odd behaviour for years, which lots of people saw and were aware of, but nobody did anything whatsoever to help him with.

[Boundry Rider]

I think Australians are under the impression that criminals and mentally ill people can buy or possess firearms in the USA and they can't, not legally and if caught they can face some long prison time.

This is very true, Australian media is one eyed and biased. They only and always lament that the US has any person strolling into a superstore of firearms and handing over cash to immediately procure a firearm. And further to this, there is generations of Australians whom will not consider that they're being mislead by an absolutely omissive media.

[perentie]

If you want to see the cause you have to look at the culprits. As disturbing as that is.
There’s a common theme there. They are all just Martin to some degree.
They werre’nt born evil. They are desperately lonely an emotionally immature. They are isolated, depressed and inevitably anger takes over. They are outsiders who dont fit in anywhere. Usually they suffer bullying from their peer groups.
Society needs to identify and reach out to them sooner. That’s everyone responsibility and everyone’s failure.
It’s not a problem we’ve solved here so we get no credit for that. We have however rendered them somewhat more inert. As in we dont arm them to the teeth with military hardware.

And they sit at home getting their ideas from the explicit violent movies they watch.
These should be banned if anything as they serve no useful purpose.

[bladeracer]

If you want to see the cause you have to look at the culprits. As disturbing as that is.
There’s a common theme there. They are all just Martin to some degree.
They werre’nt born evil. They are desperately lonely an emotionally immature. They are isolated, depressed and inevitably anger takes over. They are outsiders who dont fit in anywhere. Usually they suffer bullying from their peer groups.
Society needs to identify and reach out to them sooner. That’s everyone responsibility and everyone’s failure.
It’s not a problem we’ve solved here so we get no credit for that. We have however rendered them somewhat more inert. As in we dont arm them to the teeth with military hardware.

And they sit at home getting their ideas from the explicit violent movies they watch.
These should be banned if anything as they serve no useful purpose.

I don't believe there's a direct correlation or virtually everybody would be out doing this. There has to be some underlying propensity that lets somebody confuse reality and fantasy to begin with. Movies, games, novels, music, and even reality itself can be triggers that cause people to act out, but I think it has to trigger something that already exists within them, even if only pent up rage or frustration.

[cz515]

Seriously though, for all this talk about rules and criminals not obeying rules. I have one question to ask

Of all these so called mad shooting events, how many of the ofenders/shooters were criminals?

[bladeracer]

Seriously though, for all this talk about rules and criminals not obeying rules. I have one question to ask

Of all these so called mad shooting events, how many of the ofenders/shooters were criminals?

Who do you refer to as a "mad shooting event"?

In Australia virtually all firearm crime is committed by people that have gotten the firearms criminally, though they may not yet have a criminal record they are certainly criminally-minded and have criminal intent.

[Oldbloke]

Seriously though, for all this talk about rules and criminals not obeying rules. I have one question to ask

Of all these so called mad shooting events, how many of the ofenders/shooters were criminals?

I think you intended to say long standing criminal history? And it's a very good point. Been a few that were the "boy next door"

[cz515]

Lol i meant mass shootings.

[on_one_wheel]

Simon Munslow just posted this today. It is a 2021 report done in NZ.

https://www.facebook.com/colfonz/photos/a.1663314017233712/3064368970461536/

"Police do not know source of 82% of illegal firearms - COLFO
Research has revealed that although Police claim that the source of illegal firearms is licensed firearm owners, it cannot find the source of 82% of the firearms it seizes - opening the possibility that they enter the country with drugs and other contraband.
The Council of Licenced Firearms Owners (COLFO) has written to Police Minister Poto Williams to advise that after two years' work it has discovered that the Police have insufficient evidence for claims that legal firearm owners are a major source of firearms to gangs and organised crime groups.
The revelation has undermined Police Commissioner Andrew Coster’s recent claim that Operation Tauwhiro exists because "our biggest concern is firearms stolen out of the lawful fleet".(1)
COLFO’s enquiry started in 2019 when the Police Association and then Commissioner Bush made the claim, based on documents originally presented to the 2017 Law and Order select committee.
The guidance given to the Select Committee stated "Sources of Illegally obtained firearms -Burglaries or theft from individuals or dealers’ premises is the primary source of illegally obtained firearms, followed by those sold to non-licensed people by legal owners or dealers."
COLFO requested information that supported the statement and were supplied with intelligence summary reports 2015 (Firearms and Organised Crime: Illicit Supply, Possession and Use) and 2016 (Firearms Availability in New Zealand). This report was based on a study of firearms from a 6-month period in 2015, which found only 10% came from licensed owners either through burglary(4%) or sourced from individuals illegally (6%).
In the decade of 2010-2020 the number of seized firearms was approximately 13,000. Based on the numbers from the 2015 study, about 780 would have been provided by licenced owners. OIA responses from Police show that about 300 (2%) of illegally owned firearms that police seized were found to be stolen, and were returned to their owners. Over the same 2010-2020 period there were 6,000 firearms stolen from approximately 2000 licenced owners - not even half of those were seized.
COLFO Spokesperson Hugh Devereux-Mack said the country’s biggest concern should be the hard to find, and possibly international sources of the 82% of all seized firearms.
"Our analysis of research conducted by Police, has found that the Police do not have evidence that the majority of criminal firearms come from licensed firearm owners (LFOs).
"They’re choosing to target licensed firearm owners because our community of law abiding, vetted citizens is the easiest place to look.
"There’s anecdotal evidence of smuggled firearms, and if other illegal substances can be imported, so can firearms," he said.
The 2016 report said "Burglary from licensed firearms owners is likely to be the primary source of firearms for criminals, although this has never been established definitively. " [our emphasis]. (2)
It is clear from the number of firearms being stolen, and those recovered and identified as coming from LFOs, that there are tens of thousands of firearms illegally possessed, and most must not originate from LFOs. These firearms exist outside the legal system and therefore police insistence that a register of legally held firearms would protect New Zealanders does not stand up to scrutiny.
"Police have made this claim repeatedly to the Prime Minister and other Ministers for policy development, to Select Committee reviews of legislation, and to the media and public to justify enforcement tactics.
The word ‘LIKELY’ makes a claim of probability. In intelligence circles familiar to Police, the probability assigned to ‘LIKELY’ is 50 - 70%, and means there is tangible direct evidence.
"Making claims without evidence is not what the public and Government expect of the Police. It is not acceptable in their daily enforcement work, and it is not acceptable in their input to Government policy. Given the findings contained within Police’s own reports, Police’s claim that licensed firearm owners are the likely source of criminal arms must end from this moment until they present real evidence," Devereux-Mack said.
Redacted papers were released to COLFO almost six months after asking in 2020.(3) These included the following reports.
New Zealand Police Intelligence Report - Firearms and Organised Crime: Illicit supply, possession and use [2014]
Firearms Availability in New Zealand [written by National Intelligence Centre in 2016]
Firearms Seizures in Canterbury District (2017)
Tamaki Makaurau Unlawful Possession of Firearms and Ammunition (2017)
The Prevalence of Unlawful Firearms in New Zealand (2018)
Non-Factory Firearms Exhibit Assessments by Police Armoury June - December 2018 (2019)
Implications of the Arms Act Amendments on the Gang Environment (2019) - Summary extract.
COLFO said it hoped Operation Tauwhiro would reveal new information that could lead to a reevaluation of the effective value of a firearms registry, but the result would not justify years of misleading Parliament, the Police Minister, Media and the public without evidence."

The conspiracy theorist in me says ... WAPOL are out to create their own statistics that will show that the majority of firearms on the Black market begin life as legally owed, registered firearms.
They'll prove it eventually even if it means they need to physically provide a comprehensive shopping list with addresses to every gang in the country.

[bladeracer]

The conspiracy theorist in me says ... WAPOL are out to create their own statistics that will show that the majority of firearms on the Black market begin life as legally owed, registered firearms.
They'll prove it eventually even if it means they need to physically provide a comprehensive shopping list with addresses to every gang in the country.

As long as we remain with the UN, our government must commit to total civilian disarmament, that's why they have to keep devising ludicrous ideas for it.

[on_one_wheel]

The conspiracy theorist in me says ... WAPOL are out to create their own statistics that will show that the majority of firearms on the Black market begin life as legally owed, registered firearms.
They'll prove it eventually even if it means they need to physically provide a comprehensive shopping list with addresses to every gang in the country.

As long as we remain with the UN, our government must commit to total civilian disarmament, that's why they have to keep devising ludicrous ideas for it.

There's one statistical fact that the anti movement don't want to go near.
There's more privately owned firearms in Australia now than there was at the time of the 1996 buy back yet our firearms related deaths continue to trend downward below that of the pre 96 levels.

[bullzeye]

Of course - but you and I both know it's far easier for a criminal to buy a gun in America, than in Australia.

In America, a criminal can goto a gun sale website and find a private sale by someone who doesn't care who they sell to.

In Australia, you can't goto a gun website and find a private gun sale. To purchase guns illegally in Australia I image people need to know someone in a criminal network.

I'd say it's much easier browsing the internet and meeting someone for a cash only sale in a parking lot - than getting in contact with a criminal gang.

I'd look into it more, the criminal trade in firearms is lucrative and extensive in Australia, I'm not sure you are aware how bad it is. Several of the newspapers in Australia have published extensive expose type articles on the extent of the illegal gun trade. Australian police even say some of the muslim bike gangs have anti tank rockets in their possession.

I agree there is no doubt an illegal trade in Australia.

But it would be done through criminal gangs and organised crime networks.

The average person, who doesn't have these kind of connections would find it difficult to buy a gun. Where would they go? some old bikie hangout and just rock up and ask to buy a gun? I doubt any serious criminals would entertain that.

Whereas in America - some mentally ill loner at home can just look up an ad on the internet, meet at the back of a McDonalds car park and buy a gun in cash.

Dealing with a criminal gang would be difficult and hard to come across.

Looking up an ad on the internet - easy. Same day service.

In Australia and NSW where I'm from - Police have new powers where they can conduct "no-knock warrants" and search the homes of previously convicted criminals/ drug dealers to search for narcotics and firearms. Once you're on the police list - they can basically rock up anytime and search your house.

If you are arguing that it's easy to get your hands on guns in Australia - like in the US - you are not seeing reality.

[bullzeye]

You are right, they will never keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But our severely strict rules certainly make it much harder for criminals or mentally ill people to get their hands on guns.

I'm all for guns, but I don't agree with having such lax rules with them.

Here is a story worth reading:
Guns were No. 1 killer of children and adolescents in 2020, CDC data shows
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/guns-killer-children-adolescents-2020-cdc-data-shows/story?id=84249874

It's interesting data that I don't have time just now to investigate in depth, but how much of this trauma could be mitigated by changes within society without resorting to piling more and more laws on top of the existing laws? We need people to learn to be involved with the community around them. We need people to notice when their fellow community members are having problems, not fitting in, feeling isolated or bullied, and we need people to act when they do see this happening. So much violence (with and without firearms) can be avoided simply by people being interested in the people around them and helping others when they're able to. Becoming more and more self-obsessed will never fix this problem, regardless of how many laws you pile on it. Firearm violence is an _us_ problem, you and me, not a lack of laws. In Australia we don't have such high levels of violence because we are closer knit, in my opinion, though with recent influxes of cultures that prefer to isolate from the mainstream I can see it falling apart. That's essentially the basis of all gang violence, and religion, an isolationist view of your own community and trying to keep your people segregated from people that don't share your views. Until we accept that _we_ includes everybody, including people we don't like, or approve of, or agree with, they are still _us_, then we will continue to see violence. Laws can't fix this, people have to fix themselves.

The biggest issue with firearms is that so many lives are saved and protected by firearms that it would be a retrograde step to increase the difficulties for people to be able to access them. The media is money driven, every time firearms are used to cause carnage the media makes _big_ money, when lives are saved by firearms there is no money to be made so the media don't run the stories. So we get a very one-sided view of what appears to be a world-changing issue, when it actually isn't. When you balance the lives lost to firearm violence and the lives saved by firearms it evens out to be a non-issue. I'm sure that more lives are lost to road trauma than are saved by having vehicles on public roads, but just like firearms, the vast majority cause zero issues at all to anybody. Many more lives are ruined through alcohol abuse than are improved by using alcohol, but people enjoy drinking so we're stuck with it, despite it serving no useful benefit to our society at all. I would much rather see alcohol more restricted than firearms, every day of the week. We may not have much firearm violence here but we have no shortage of alcohol-fuelled violence, crime and family break-down that most people seem happy to accept as normal.

It's time to investigate the data:

Population of Australia - 25 million
Population of USA - 331 million

So we are approx 7.55% the size of the USA in terms of population.

Now in 2020:

Australia had 34 homicides by firearm (out of 396 homicides in total).

The USA had 19,384 homicides by firearm (out of 24,576 homicides in total).

Now if we had the same rate of homicides by firearm as the USA - (7.55% of 19,384) - we would have 1463 homicides by firearm per year in Australia. But we only had 34.

You raise a point about trying to get the community working together to support each other. I think there will always be troubled and mentally ill people out there. That is just what makes us human. When these people get their hands on guns, the results as per above are clearly devastating.

Yes our gun laws are very restrictive, but it has allowed us to have a much lower rate of gun related murders proportionate to our population.

[cz515]

The conspiracy theorist in me says ... WAPOL are out to create their own statistics that will show that the majority of firearms on the Black market begin life as legally owed, registered firearms.
They'll prove it eventually even if it means they need to physically provide a comprehensive shopping list with addresses to every gang in the country.

As long as we remain with the UN, our government must commit to total civilian disarmament, that's why they have to keep devising ludicrous ideas for it.

Firstly this shows that locking up firearms in safe etc does help, it won't solve 100%... but then nothing does.

Well if wapol fake the results then you need to message your local mp. But we also know WA is a weird place to live in....i suppose thats what happens when you have extreme low population

Blade mate, you been watching too many conspiracy theory websites. UN is a lame duck. It's a bunch of burocrats arguing about s**t. Where bigger countries bribe smaller countries to agree to their agenda, but either off Russia/China/uk/us can veto whatever they don't like.

Look at WHO, that's a un organisation, what did it do with crona.... whatever China said, looked after china's interest as they paid its bills.
Look at the iraq war, there were no WMD, but America and UK bribed a bunch of countries and even without a proper mandate they attacked.

In short, while there might be another organisation or group of people wanting to do what you thinking about, but UN is not it... its just a giant meeting room where people who have no power meet and discuss things they cannot do anything about, to look like they are doing something to the population.

[Oldbloke]

I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

[Gamerancher]

If you want to look at statistics, swimming is more lethal than guns in Australia.
More people drown each year than are killed with firearms.

"Today, in a joint release, the Royal Life Saving National Drowning Report 2021 and Surf Life Saving National Coastal Safety Report 2021 were released. There were 294 drowning deaths in the past 12 months across Australia's coastline, inland waterways and pools, which is 20% higher than last year (245)."

I propose we introduce the same restrictions/requirements for swimming/pools/rivers/lakes/ocean etc. as we have on shooting and firearms.
You know, must be licenced, prove genuine need, all water must be secured/locked away from the non-swimming public, "think of the children"...