Canada to ban sale of handguns

[wanneroo]

You don't have to ban firearms, or make it illegal.

I think a couple simple steps will be enough.
Background checks which are already in many states, to include linkages with psychiatric services.
Safe storage of firearms so only the adult is responsible. Children under 21 can't drive so if they want to shoot they need to be supervised by an adult license holder.

NRA can help vet and ensure the police don't go crazy like they sometimes do in Australia

I don't think you understand how it works here in the USA, again too much TV babble from clueless pundits.

I want you to read this below because every single gun sold in the USA at a gun store, every single purchaser must fill out a Form 4473, every time you buy a gun, no exceptions:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473- ... 9/download

I want you to read question 21 and it's contents.

Understand that in the USA if you are held in involuntary commitment for mental issues, even for one night, you are banned from buying a gun.

If you lie on this form you face 5 years in prison either from the feds or the state.

When you complete this form at the gun store, you then get called into a hotline and your record is looked at by an operator. If there are any questions, they deny or put a person into holding where they can't buy until it's cleared up.

That's just the federal side of things, depending on the state or local city there may be further forms and checks on must go through.

Now can bad guys circumvent this with straw purchasers, sure, but again this is the bureaucracy they told us we had to have.

When it comes down to it, we already have 30000 guns laws on the books in the USA. Saying if we add another 10000 or something aint gonna change anything, probably make it worse like in Texas.

[geoff]

USA is a garbage third world hole

In the end not much point in talking with you here online because you've already made your mind up from external sources(media) with no first hand knowledge of the USA. If would be one thing if you lived in the USA for X years in so and so place and you were like yeah that didn't work for me and this and that but calling it a garbage third world hole just comes from a place of ignorance and lack of first hand knowledge. I'm guessing if I didn't have any in person knowledge of Australia(I do) and I called Australia a garbage third world hole here on this forum, I'm guessing most of you all would be who is this ignoramus?

I will tell you this that on my next visit to Australia after Covidsyteria ends, I will be making myself available to meet up with any long standing members from the forum, even if you want to recite talking points from Australian media on how bad the USA is and how great China is. You'll get to meet a real American, rather than watching it on TV. I'll even generously shout you a meal on my dime at whatever your favorite place is to eat and drink:drinks:

I never stated what my experiences in the USA are, so you are making an assumption there. I have spent enough time in the States to experience how dystopic its system of governance and culture really is. It's not even about guns, the guns and the gun violence are just symptoms of a malignant cancer in people. We are inherently susceptible to it here in Australia and the more of it the USA exports, the more of it our numpties just lap up unfortunately.

It should also be noted that I don't think a confiscation program like we had here in Australia in the 90s and early 2000s would work there. I think it's a terrible idea and wouldn't acheive any worthwhile goals. So we have more in common than you think, but you just refuse to engage with the fact that there are deep seated cultural issues related to the presence of, and use of, violence as a way to get what you want. The USA wouldn't exist without this attitude, rightly or wrongly, and it exists at every level of civil and political life. Economic, emotional and physical violence, the exercising of power through all sorts of convoluted heirarchies. Until American society deals with that, and the fact that its politics reflects these attitudes, nothing will change and we will continue to see weird flexes on the internet from people trying to justify a system that encourages the wholesale slaughter of schoolchildren as an acceptable consequence of it's worldview.

Land of the free, home of the brave though, right? yeehaw

[womble]

Consfication, bans would be the worst possible scenario for the US.
That’s a lot of guns that would be pawned of to criminals pretty quickly.
That happened here and in NZ more recently, but not on that scale.
I think the one thing we did get right was a more stringent vetting of applicants and a more onerous and timely application process. Plus you need referees. Dose’nt really appeal to someone who’s just lost their marbles.
We’ve stopped a lot of nut jobs from slipping through the net without a doubt.

But your NRA being on the scene within 72 hours of the school shooting and being confrontational, combative. That was so disrespectful and a horrible display with a total complete lack of empathy.
So much so you’d swear it was an inside job.
Certainly enraged our detractors.
I dont understand why they cant work toward sensible well meaning solutions. Your representation will be your undoing.
The deflective crap is tiresome and old. Kids dont fly planes into their classrooms. Chicago borders Michigan. Mental illness minus a high capacity assault rifle gun is significantly safer.
Spare me the new “emotionalism” mantra. It’s called grief stricken. Burying your child can do that.
Unless you start to humanise gun owners and fast you will lose hard.
You need to own this and start being responsible citizens, not combative ones.
We do ok here, not so bad as you think. Because we are not a threat to broader society.

[Oldbloke]

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/05/armed- ... L_CAMPAIGN)#axzz7UuO4e700

[bullzeye]

You don't have to ban firearms, or make it illegal.

I think a couple simple steps will be enough.
Background checks which are already in many states, to include linkages with psychiatric services.
Safe storage of firearms so only the adult is responsible. Children under 21 can't drive so if they want to shoot they need to be supervised by an adult license holder.

NRA can help vet and ensure the police don't go crazy like they sometimes do in Australia

I don't think you understand how it works here in the USA, again too much TV babble from clueless pundits.

I want you to read this below because every single gun sold in the USA at a gun store, every single purchaser must fill out a Form 4473, every time you buy a gun, no exceptions:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473- ... 9/download

I want you to read question 21 and it's contents.

Understand that in the USA if you are held in involuntary commitment for mental issues, even for one night, you are banned from buying a gun.

If you lie on this form you face 5 years in prison either from the feds or the state.

When you complete this form at the gun store, you then get called into a hotline and your record is looked at by an operator. If there are any questions, they deny or put a person into holding where they can't buy until it's cleared up.

That's just the federal side of things, depending on the state or local city there may be further forms and checks on must go through.

Now can bad guys circumvent this with straw purchasers, sure, but again this is the bureaucracy they told us we had to have.

When it comes down to it, we already have 30000 guns laws on the books in the USA. Saying if we add another 10000 or something aint gonna change anything, probably make it worse like in Texas.

Yep - and what about Private Sales?

Any crazy person can buy a gun right?

[Boundry Rider]

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/05/armed-woman-stops-career-criminal-shooting-at-a-birthday-party/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)#axzz7UuO4e700

Reflects my sentiment exactly. There's more of this going on than reported.

Sadly in WA she would have been arrested.

WaPOL are so paranoid they even arrested and handcuffed on the footpath 2 or 3 of their own after the responding officers fatally shoot a bloke whom knifeing an innocent delicatessen worker during an active situation. Shameful treatment of brave responders

[wanneroo]

Yep - and what about Private Sales?

Any crazy person can buy a gun right?

All depends on what the states rules are and if legal in that state you can only sell to another state resident and one who is not prohibited. If you sell to someone you know is prohibited you are looking at jail time.

In my state you can sell rifles or shotguns to another state resident provided again they are not prohibited.

To protect themselves, a lot of people will simply transfer it via an FFL(gun store) to the other person. The other person does the background check and pays a fee to do so. The other thing many people will do if they want to sell a gun or guns is simply consign them to a gun store and let them handle it.

Also you have to watch selling firearms as you can't run a business selling guns without an FFL from the ATF.

I actually have a Curio and Relic Federal Firearms License so I can buy 50 year old plus guns without a background check and have them delivered to my home from another FFL.

In terms of "crazy" again it comes down to if a person has never been adjudicated as "crazy" or done any of the other things listed on that Form 4473, then they will pass a background check. Ultimately there are limits to what bureaucracy can do if someone flies under the radar for 40 years and then "snaps and goes crazy". We saw this not that long ago in Australia with the mass killing of the family by the grandfather in Margaret River.

[bladeracer]

Yep - and what about Private Sales?

Any crazy person can buy a gun right?

Same as here you mean?

[geoff]

Yep - and what about Private Sales?

Any crazy person can buy a gun right?

All depends on what the states rules are and if legal in that state you can only sell to another state resident and one who is not prohibited. If you sell to someone you know is prohibited you are looking at jail time.

In my state you can sell rifles or shotguns to another state resident provided again they are not prohibited.

To protect themselves, a lot of people will simply transfer it via an FFL(gun store) to the other person. The other person does the background check and pays a fee to do so. The other thing many people will do if they want to sell a gun or guns is simply consign them to a gun store and let them handle it.

Also you have to watch selling firearms as you can't run a business selling guns without an FFL from the ATF.

I actually have a Curio and Relic Federal Firearms License so I can buy 50 year old plus guns without a background check and have them delivered to my home from another FFL.

In terms of "crazy" again it comes down to if a person has never been adjudicated as "crazy" or done any of the other things listed on that Form 4473, then they will pass a background check. Ultimately there are limits to what bureaucracy can do if someone flies under the radar for 40 years and then "snaps and goes crazy". We saw this not that long ago in Australia with the mass killing of the family by the grandfather in Margaret River.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

[bladeracer]

Yep - and what about Private Sales?

Any crazy person can buy a gun right?

All depends on what the states rules are and if legal in that state you can only sell to another state resident and one who is not prohibited. If you sell to someone you know is prohibited you are looking at jail time.

In my state you can sell rifles or shotguns to another state resident provided again they are not prohibited.

To protect themselves, a lot of people will simply transfer it via an FFL(gun store) to the other person. The other person does the background check and pays a fee to do so. The other thing many people will do if they want to sell a gun or guns is simply consign them to a gun store and let them handle it.

Also you have to watch selling firearms as you can't run a business selling guns without an FFL from the ATF.

I actually have a Curio and Relic Federal Firearms License so I can buy 50 year old plus guns without a background check and have them delivered to my home from another FFL.

In terms of "crazy" again it comes down to if a person has never been adjudicated as "crazy" or done any of the other things listed on that Form 4473, then they will pass a background check. Ultimately there are limits to what bureaucracy can do if someone flies under the radar for 40 years and then "snaps and goes crazy". We saw this not that long ago in Australia with the mass killing of the family by the grandfather in Margaret River.

Exactly, laws already "prevent" selling guns illegally to individuals, laws that some people envisage will stop all firearm violence, just as drug laws prevent drug abuse and crimes associated with drug use, laws that prevent rape and assault, laws that prevent car theft, laws that prevent burglary...'cos laws are good right? Laws will not prevent anything, only people can do that, and the best way is to change people's attitudes so they don't have any reason to consider a criminal lifestyle.

[bullzeye]

Yep - and what about Private Sales?

Any crazy person can buy a gun right?

All depends on what the states rules are and if legal in that state you can only sell to another state resident and one who is not prohibited. If you sell to someone you know is prohibited you are looking at jail time.

In my state you can sell rifles or shotguns to another state resident provided again they are not prohibited.

To protect themselves, a lot of people will simply transfer it via an FFL(gun store) to the other person. The other person does the background check and pays a fee to do so. The other thing many people will do if they want to sell a gun or guns is simply consign them to a gun store and let them handle it.

Also you have to watch selling firearms as you can't run a business selling guns without an FFL from the ATF.

I actually have a Curio and Relic Federal Firearms License so I can buy 50 year old plus guns without a background check and have them delivered to my home from another FFL.

In terms of "crazy" again it comes down to if a person has never been adjudicated as "crazy" or done any of the other things listed on that Form 4473, then they will pass a background check. Ultimately there are limits to what bureaucracy can do if someone flies under the radar for 40 years and then "snaps and goes crazy". We saw this not that long ago in Australia with the mass killing of the family by the grandfather in Margaret River.

Private Sales is a big topic to conveniently leave out. Considering people can sell guns privately with no license or gun registration required, basically makes it SUPER EASY for anyone to buy a gun - criminal, mentally ill etc. If you sell a gun to someone cash only out the back of some carpark - who's there to check you are selling to someone legit?

In Australia - criminals/ mentally ill (who have records with the police/ health dept) can't even get a gun license. No gun license - no gun purchases.

You are right about the Margaret River shooting. This was unfortunately 7 people killed in 2018. No mass shootings since.

[bladeracer]

Private Sales is a big topic to conveniently leave out. Considering people can sell guns privately with no license or gun registration required, basically makes it SUPER EASY for anyone to buy a gun - criminal, mentally ill etc. If you sell a gun to someone cash only out the back of some carpark - who's there to check you are selling to someone legit?

In Australia - criminals/ mentally ill (who have records with the police/ health dept) can't even get a gun license. No gun license - no gun purchases.

You are right about the Margaret River shooting. This was unfortunately 7 people killed in 2018. No mass shootings since.

Which is exactly how it is here, people that don't obey laws, and don't have licences still buy guns...

[bullzeye]

Private Sales is a big topic to conveniently leave out. Considering people can sell guns privately with no license or gun registration required, basically makes it SUPER EASY for anyone to buy a gun - criminal, mentally ill etc. If you sell a gun to someone cash only out the back of some carpark - who's there to check you are selling to someone legit?

In Australia - criminals/ mentally ill (who have records with the police/ health dept) can't even get a gun license. No gun license - no gun purchases.

You are right about the Margaret River shooting. This was unfortunately 7 people killed in 2018. No mass shootings since.

Which is exactly how it is here, people that don't obey laws, and don't have licences still buy guns...

Of course - but you and I both know it's far easier for a criminal to buy a gun in America, than in Australia.

In America, a criminal can goto a gun sale website and find a private sale by someone who doesn't care who they sell to.

In Australia, you can't goto a gun website and find a private gun sale. To purchase guns illegally in Australia I image people need to know someone in a criminal network.

I'd say it's much easier browsing the internet and meeting someone for a cash only sale in a parking lot - than getting in contact with a criminal gang.

[bladeracer]

Of course - but you and I both know it's far easier for a criminal to buy a gun in America, than in Australia.

In America, a criminal can goto a gun sale website and find a private sale by someone who doesn't care who they sell to.

In Australia, you can't goto a gun website and find a private gun sale. To purchase guns illegally in Australia I image people need to know someone in a criminal network.

I'd say it's much easier browsing the internet and meeting someone for a cash only sale in a parking lot - than getting in contact with a criminal gang.

It doesn't change the fact that our laws do not keep firearms out of the hands of our criminals, they never have and they never will. More laws will not fix the issue of gun violence, it is already illegal.

[bullzeye]

Of course - but you and I both know it's far easier for a criminal to buy a gun in America, than in Australia.

In America, a criminal can goto a gun sale website and find a private sale by someone who doesn't care who they sell to.

In Australia, you can't goto a gun website and find a private gun sale. To purchase guns illegally in Australia I image people need to know someone in a criminal network.

I'd say it's much easier browsing the internet and meeting someone for a cash only sale in a parking lot - than getting in contact with a criminal gang.

It doesn't change the fact that our laws do not keep firearms out of the hands of our criminals, they never have and they never will. More laws will not fix the issue of gun violence, it is already illegal.

You are right, they will never keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But our severely strict rules certainly make it much harder for criminals or mentally ill people to get their hands on guns.

I'm all for guns, but I don't agree with having such lax rules with them.

Here is a story worth reading:
Guns were No. 1 killer of children and adolescents in 2020, CDC data shows
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/guns-killer-children-adolescents-2020-cdc-data-shows/story?id=84249874

[bladeracer]

You are right, they will never keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But our severely strict rules certainly make it much harder for criminals or mentally ill people to get their hands on guns.

I'm all for guns, but I don't agree with having such lax rules with them.

Here is a story worth reading:
Guns were No. 1 killer of children and adolescents in 2020, CDC data shows
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/guns-killer-children-adolescents-2020-cdc-data-shows/story?id=84249874

It's interesting data that I don't have time just now to investigate in depth, but how much of this trauma could be mitigated by changes within society without resorting to piling more and more laws on top of the existing laws? We need people to learn to be involved with the community around them. We need people to notice when their fellow community members are having problems, not fitting in, feeling isolated or bullied, and we need people to act when they do see this happening. So much violence (with and without firearms) can be avoided simply by people being interested in the people around them and helping others when they're able to. Becoming more and more self-obsessed will never fix this problem, regardless of how many laws you pile on it. Firearm violence is an _us_ problem, you and me, not a lack of laws. In Australia we don't have such high levels of violence because we are closer knit, in my opinion, though with recent influxes of cultures that prefer to isolate from the mainstream I can see it falling apart. That's essentially the basis of all gang violence, and religion, an isolationist view of your own community and trying to keep your people segregated from people that don't share your views. Until we accept that _we_ includes everybody, including people we don't like, or approve of, or agree with, they are still _us_, then we will continue to see violence. Laws can't fix this, people have to fix themselves.

The biggest issue with firearms is that so many lives are saved and protected by firearms that it would be a retrograde step to increase the difficulties for people to be able to access them. The media is money driven, every time firearms are used to cause carnage the media makes _big_ money, when lives are saved by firearms there is no money to be made so the media don't run the stories. So we get a very one-sided view of what appears to be a world-changing issue, when it actually isn't. When you balance the lives lost to firearm violence and the lives saved by firearms it evens out to be a non-issue. I'm sure that more lives are lost to road trauma than are saved by having vehicles on public roads, but just like firearms, the vast majority cause zero issues at all to anybody. Many more lives are ruined through alcohol abuse than are improved by using alcohol, but people enjoy drinking so we're stuck with it, despite it serving no useful benefit to our society at all. I would much rather see alcohol more restricted than firearms, every day of the week. We may not have much firearm violence here but we have no shortage of alcohol-fuelled violence, crime and family break-down that most people seem happy to accept as normal.

[geoff]

This whole notion that there are people who don't comply with laws as being some reason not to bother enacting them is such low rent

Of course restricting access to firearms isn't a perfect solution. But, and I appear to be one of the few here with such a conviction, it does appear to be a far better and more workable scenario than allowing them to be owned by any Tom, Dick or Harry who wants to take them into schools. Confiscation and regulation isn't the panacea of public safety policy but "it won't stop everyone" or "it won't stop all shootings" is a position that has all the critical thought of a box of ham

[Larry]

This whole notion that there are people who don't comply with laws as being some reason not to bother enacting them is such low rent

Of course restricting access to firearms isn't a perfect solution. But, and I appear to be one of the few here with such a conviction, it does appear to be a far better and more workable scenario than allowing them to be owned by any Tom, Dick or Harry who wants to take them into schools. Confiscation and regulation isn't the panacea of public safety policy but "it won't stop everyone" or "it won't stop all shootings" is a position that has all the critical thought of a box of ham

Nicely put +1

[Oldbloke]

You assume that the amount of guns directly relates to rates of gun crime.
Our rate of gun crime might be lower per capita because we are a healthier society in general and lack the racial tension and other unhealthy social traits that America has.

If gun numbers meant more gun crime then why isn't Switzerland a hell hole riddled with hatred and gun crime? Might be something to do with a healthy society where citizens respect each other and are trained in the use of firearms.

And,

Just a few have all the wealth
Poor mental health assistance.
Poor medical care.
Very low wages for most
Very little assistance for the unemployed.
Very low old age pension

Yep, primarily social.

[Larry]

Well you know those socialists and left wing people are going to ruin the country.

[bladeracer]

This whole notion that there are people who don't comply with laws as being some reason not to bother enacting them is such low rent

Of course restricting access to firearms isn't a perfect solution. But, and I appear to be one of the few here with such a conviction, it does appear to be a far better and more workable scenario than allowing them to be owned by any Tom, Dick or Harry who wants to take them into schools. Confiscation and regulation isn't the panacea of public safety policy but "it won't stop everyone" or "it won't stop all shootings" is a position that has all the critical thought of a box of ham

The issue is that these shootings are rare in the big picture as the vast majority, and I mean _vast_ majority, of firearm owners never commit any such acts. So why even consider restricting access to such a huge proportion of law-abiding people that do not and likely never will hurt anybody, when you already know that such laws will have little effect on the actual issue of firearm violence?

[bladeracer]

We have almost a century of enacting more and more gun control against civilians around the world that should by now prove definitively that it is not effective against firearm violence, yet some people insist it is the only answer.

[Oldbloke]

We have almost a century of enacting more and more gun control against civilians around the world that should by now prove definitively that it is not effective against firearm violence, yet some people insist it is the only answer.

Not sure thats correct blade. Imagine if AU was like the wild west. Half the blokes carried firearms daily. Are you trying to say it would be safer. Fewer firearm deaths? Mmmmm, I doubt that.

IMO it's little or no different to an aircraft licence. Or many other licences.

Not anyone can have one. For instance if they a not mentally well. Or can't fly safely.
There are various licences, some only day use, some single prop or jets, etc. Regular retesting. Air craft maintenance requirements.
We accept that those restrictions are in place for safety reasons. I mean we wouldn't allow a 16 year old to fly a 747 would we. And air craft are designed for the purpose of transport just happens people can also die in them. Firearms are specificy designed for the purpose of killing. Some conveniently forget that.

Firearms are no different. The question is, is the system fair, workable and sensible?

We will never stop idiots or criminals. But doesn't mean we should make it easy for them.

It's a trade off. Safer society, but the cost is some restrictions.

But culture is also a big part of the equation. In the US in particular.

[bladeracer]

We have almost a century of enacting more and more gun control against civilians around the world that should by now prove definitively that it is not effective against firearm violence, yet some people insist it is the only answer.

Not sure thats correct blade. Imagine if AU was like the wild west. Half the blokes carried firearms daily. Are you trying to say it would be safer. Fewer firearm deaths? Mmmmm, I doubt that.

IMO it's little or no different to an aircraft licence. Or many other licences.

Not anyone can have one. For instance if they a not mentally well. Or can't fly safely.
There are various licences, some only day use, some single prop or jets, etc. Regular retesting. Air craft maintenance requirements.
We accept that those restrictions are in place for safety reasons. I mean we wouldn't allow a 16 year old to fly a 747 would we. And air craft are designed for the purpose of transport just happens people can also die in them. Firearms are specificy designed for the purpose of killing. Some conveniently forget that.

Firearms are no different. The question is, is the system fair, workable and sensible?

We will never stop idiots or criminals. But doesn't mean we should make it easy for them.

It's a trade off. Safer society, but the cost is some restrictions.

But culture is also a big part of the equation. In the US in particular.

Yes, the basics of gun control are fine, they infringe very little into law-abiding people's lives, as they should. I'm talking about the many thousands of laws that have been added onto those basic requirements over the past ninety-years that really haven't done anything at all to prevent criminals from accessing firearms. The basis of all gun control laws anywhere that has such basic controls are that if a person is a criminal, or mentally unsound, or intends to commit harm against others then they are not allowed access to firearms, and yet these are the very people that do get them because they don't care what the law demands of them, and that doesn't change simply by adding another thousand laws for them to ignore.

Has anything ever been successfully regulated out of the hands of the non-law-abiding by prohibiting access to the law-abiding?

[Oldbloke]

Some US stat's

US Rate is 12.21
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... a-by-state

AU rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

https://www.safehome.org/resources/crim ... -by-state/

[Oldbloke]

We have almost a century of enacting more and more gun control against civilians around the world that should by now prove definitively that it is not effective against firearm violence, yet some people insist it is the only answer.

Not sure thats correct blade. Imagine if AU was like the wild west. Half the blokes carried firearms daily. Are you trying to say it would be safer. Fewer firearm deaths? Mmmmm, I doubt that.

IMO it's little or no different to an aircraft licence. Or many other licences.

Not anyone can have one. For instance if they a not mentally well. Or can't fly safely.
There are various licences, some only day use, some single prop or jets, etc. Regular retesting. Air craft maintenance requirements.
We accept that those restrictions are in place for safety reasons. I mean we wouldn't allow a 16 year old to fly a 747 would we. And air craft are designed for the purpose of transport just happens people can also die in them. Firearms are specificy designed for the purpose of killing. Some conveniently forget that.

Firearms are no different. The question is, is the system fair, workable and sensible?

We will never stop idiots or criminals. But doesn't mean we should make it easy for them.

It's a trade off. Safer society, but the cost is some restrictions.

But culture is also a big part of the equation. In the US in particular.

Yes, the basics of gun control are fine, they infringe very little into law-abiding people's lives, as they should. I'm talking about the many thousands of laws that have been added onto those basic requirements over the past ninety-years that really haven't done anything at all to prevent criminals from accessing firearms. The basis of all gun control laws anywhere that has such basic controls are that if a person is a criminal, or mentally unsound, or intends to commit harm against others then they are not allowed access to firearms, and yet these are the very people that do get them because they don't care what the law demands of them, and that doesn't change simply by adding another thousand laws for them to ignore.

Has anything ever been successfully regulated out of the hands of the non-law-abiding by prohibiting access to the law-abiding?

Not sure if that's the right question to ask.

Perhaps:

If fully auto firearms are banned from use by citizens, will it stop criminals from getting them? Will it prevent deaths?

A. Some criminals will still get them, some will not. Some will decide the penalty if caught is too great and get a 5 shot BA instead, perhaps do less harm.

Full auto has been effectively banned for many years in AU. (1945?) Never seen one. I imagine Crims would find it hard to get one along with a few mags and heap of ammo.

Yes, some of our laws are pretty stupid, and pointless, but most OK, IMO.

[DecaHex]

Budget store commie dictator wannabe strikes again.

[wanneroo]

Private Sales is a big topic to conveniently leave out. Considering people can sell guns privately with no license or gun registration required, basically makes it SUPER EASY for anyone to buy a gun - criminal, mentally ill etc. If you sell a gun to someone cash only out the back of some carpark - who's there to check you are selling to someone legit?

In Australia - criminals/ mentally ill (who have records with the police/ health dept) can't even get a gun license. No gun license - no gun purchases.

You are right about the Margaret River shooting. This was unfortunately 7 people killed in 2018. No mass shootings since.

It's not conveniently left out. The vast majority of sales are done via FFL. It's not "SUPER EASY" in the sense that if you sell a rifle or shotgun in my state to some known criminal for cash and it gets traced back to you, you are looking at doing time in prison. Hence most private sellers as I mentioned simply go through an FFL or expect to see some sort of documentation such as a license to carry.

In the end criminals don't give a crap about any of this, they aren't interested in some old farts rifle sold out the back of his truck. They simply get clean straw purchasers to go in to a gun store and buy whatever they want or they drive a stolen truck into a gun store at night in a ram raid and steal as many guns as they can. All illegal and often they get busted, but again they are criminals.....

It's no different than Australia, criminals and mentally ill(with records) cannot buy or possess firearms. And it's a lifetime ban as well. I think Australians are under the impression that criminals and mentally ill people can buy or possess firearms in the USA and they can't, not legally and if caught they can face some long prison time.

[wanneroo]

Of course - but you and I both know it's far easier for a criminal to buy a gun in America, than in Australia.

In America, a criminal can goto a gun sale website and find a private sale by someone who doesn't care who they sell to.

In Australia, you can't goto a gun website and find a private gun sale. To purchase guns illegally in Australia I image people need to know someone in a criminal network.

I'd say it's much easier browsing the internet and meeting someone for a cash only sale in a parking lot - than getting in contact with a criminal gang.

I'd look into it more, the criminal trade in firearms is lucrative and extensive in Australia, I'm not sure you are aware how bad it is. Several of the newspapers in Australia have published extensive expose type articles on the extent of the illegal gun trade. Australian police even say some of the muslim bike gangs have anti tank rockets in their possession.

[cz515]

So wannaroo are you saying that every state has ffl laws, as its fake news that a person can buy a gun without a background check?

The issue is that these shootings are rare in the big picture as the vast majority, and I mean _vast_ majority, of firearm owners never commit any such acts. So why even consider restricting access to such a huge proportion of law-abiding people that do not and likely never will hurt anybody, when you already know that such laws will have little effect on the actual issue of firearm violence?

Blade, so you saying that enacting rules will not solve anything. So why do we (including usa) have drivers license, licence for trades, license to fly a plane, sail a ship etc etc etc. Let's just have no rules in the society.

While rules will not fix everything, enforcement means it makes the society overall better. Sure you will get the odd person who cannot get a b license due to continuous drink driving offences but it means that most people will not drink and drive, thus resulting in less accidents and deaths on the road.

Enacting reasonable laws will not stop gun violence overnight in the USA, it will likely take years, but think about the people and children who will not needlessly die every year. Put yourself in the parents shoes and think about it.

Having armed people does not work, because many areas where these shootings happen already have concealed carry laws. And if the country didn't have enough money to allow their police officer to do more then obe training shoots a year who is going to pay for so many school teachers to have regular training every year. Maybe they can charge people to send their children to school like a private school. Or maybe they can not have electric lights and use the money saved to pay for training for their teachers