Canada to ban sale of handguns

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Larry » 06 Jun 2022, 12:40 pm

Gamerancher wrote:If you want to look at statistics, swimming is more lethal than guns in Australia.
More people drown each year than are killed with firearms.

"Today, in a joint release, the Royal Life Saving National Drowning Report 2021 and Surf Life Saving National Coastal Safety Report 2021 were released. There were 294 drowning deaths in the past 12 months across Australia's coastline, inland waterways and pools, which is 20% higher than last year (245)."

I propose we introduce the same restrictions/requirements for swimming/pools/rivers/lakes/ocean etc. as we have on shooting and firearms.
You know, must be licenced, prove genuine need, all water must be secured/locked away from the non-swimming public, "think of the children"...


A good example but maybe not the best to make a point re laws. There are plenty around swing pools. They have to be locked away secure storage. Being on a register and having an approved pool and pool fence may not be too far off it may even be in place in some local council areas.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Gamerancher » 06 Jun 2022, 12:49 pm

You sort of missed my point a bit. Swimming is statistically more dangerous than shooting.
Why would anyone NEED to go swimming...The arguments against gun ownership could quite easily be used against swimming.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2022, 1:05 pm

Gamerancher wrote:If you want to look at statistics, swimming is more lethal than guns in Australia.
More people drown each year than are killed with firearms.

"Today, in a joint release, the Royal Life Saving National Drowning Report 2021 and Surf Life Saving National Coastal Safety Report 2021 were released. There were 294 drowning deaths in the past 12 months across Australia's coastline, inland waterways and pools, which is 20% higher than last year (245)."

I propose we introduce the same restrictions/requirements for swimming/pools/rivers/lakes/ocean etc. as we have on shooting and firearms.
You know, must be licenced, prove genuine need, all water must be secured/locked away from the non-swimming public, "think of the children"...


Correct. I have mentioned that in the past. And NSC, ADA SSAA, SFFP etc should push if HARD
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 1:16 pm

bullzeye wrote:It's time to investigate the data:

Population of Australia - 25 million
Population of USA - 331 million

So we are approx 7.55% the size of the USA in terms of population.

Now in 2020:

Australia had 34 homicides by firearm (out of 396 homicides in total).

The USA had 19,384 homicides by firearm (out of 24,576 homicides in total).

Now if we had the same rate of homicides by firearm as the USA - (7.55% of 19,384) - we would have 1463 homicides by firearm per year in Australia. But we only had 34.

You raise a point about trying to get the community working together to support each other. I think there will always be troubled and mentally ill people out there. That is just what makes us human. When these people get their hands on guns, the results as per above are clearly devastating.

Yes our gun laws are very restrictive, but it has allowed us to have a much lower rate of gun related murders proportionate to our population.


Now run your numbers again but remove the five most restricted cities/states...you'll find the numbers drop to negligible when you only count the places that don't have the tight restrictions.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 1:20 pm

cz515 wrote:Firstly this shows that locking up firearms in safe etc does help, it won't solve 100%... but then nothing does.

Well if wapol fake the results then you need to message your local mp. But we also know WA is a weird place to live in....i suppose thats what happens when you have extreme low population

Blade mate, you been watching too many conspiracy theory websites. UN is a lame duck. It's a bunch of burocrats arguing about s**t. Where bigger countries bribe smaller countries to agree to their agenda, but either off Russia/China/uk/us can veto whatever they don't like.

Look at WHO, that's a un organisation, what did it do with crona.... whatever China said, looked after china's interest as they paid its bills.
Look at the iraq war, there were no WMD, but America and UK bribed a bunch of countries and even without a proper mandate they attacked.

In short, while there might be another organisation or group of people wanting to do what you thinking about, but UN is not it... its just a giant meeting room where people who have no power meet and discuss things they cannot do anything about, to look like they are doing something to the population.


I suspect you probably watch more conspiracy theory sources than I do as I watch none of them. Agreed though, the UN is just one of the public arms of a larger conglomerate that wants us all disarmed for their profit.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 1:22 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


What are the rates if you exclude Chicago and New York, where owning firearms is the most difficult?
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by cz515 » 06 Jun 2022, 2:27 pm

Gamerancher wrote:If you want to look at statistics, swimming is more lethal than guns in Australia.
More people drown each year than are killed with firearms.

"Today, in a joint release, the Royal Life Saving National Drowning Report 2021 and Surf Life Saving National Coastal Safety Report 2021 were released. There were 294 drowning deaths in the past 12 months across Australia's coastline, inland waterways and pools, which is 20% higher than last year (245)."

I propose we introduce the same restrictions/requirements for swimming/pools/rivers/lakes/ocean etc. as we have on shooting and firearms.
You know, must be licenced, prove genuine need, all water must be secured/locked away from the non-swimming public, "think of the children"...


If you want to look at statistics then you will find anyone worth a grain of salt... and not the herald Sun/ fox news etc would compare number of deaths compared to how many participants at the minimum. So if 20m people swim in Australia during a year resulting in 294 deaths, and 1 million (licensed firearm owners, plus add a few thousand crims) shooters resulting in 10 deaths... shooting is a far more dangerous sport.

But as said, swimming had a lot of restrictions, you have to have a fence in vic, this fence needs to be inspected every few years, location of pool needs to be registered with council. In public pools you need lifeguards and parents are still required to be in direct contact of learner (young) swimmers. Etc etc etc
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by cz515 » 06 Jun 2022, 2:29 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


What are the rates if you exclude Chicago and New York, where owning firearms is the most difficult?


I would like to add that the areas you speak off are in general the most populas states, and those with a higher population of African Americans or latino/immigrants.

A better question would be did the rates of firearm offences decrease after the laws were changed averaged over population growth etc

So not really a good comparison.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Larry » 06 Jun 2022, 3:57 pm

A dozen mass shootings across the US this weekend. Perhaps there should be a different thread to solve the problems in the US rather than on one about Canada.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2022, 6:04 pm

cz515 wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:If you want to look at statistics, swimming is more lethal than guns in Australia.
More people drown each year than are killed with firearms.

"Today, in a joint release, the Royal Life Saving National Drowning Report 2021 and Surf Life Saving National Coastal Safety Report 2021 were released. There were 294 drowning deaths in the past 12 months across Australia's coastline, inland waterways and pools, which is 20% higher than last year (245)."

I propose we introduce the same restrictions/requirements for swimming/pools/rivers/lakes/ocean etc. as we have on shooting and firearms.
You know, must be licenced, prove genuine need, all water must be secured/locked away from the non-swimming public, "think of the children"...


If you want to look at statistics then you will find anyone worth a grain of salt... and not the herald Sun/ fox news etc would compare number of deaths compared to how many participants at the minimum. So if 20m people swim in Australia during a year resulting in 294 deaths, and 1 million (licensed firearm owners, plus add a few thousand crims) shooters resulting in 10 deaths... shooting is a far more dangerous sport.

But as said, swimming had a lot of restrictions, you have to have a fence in vic, this fence needs to be inspected every few years, location of pool needs to be registered with council. In public pools you need lifeguards and parents are still required to be in direct contact of learner (young) swimmers. Etc etc etc


"Rates" the number of, per 100,000 of population.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 6:36 pm

cz515 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


What are the rates if you exclude Chicago and New York, where owning firearms is the most difficult?


I would like to add that the areas you speak off are in general the most populas states, and those with a higher population of African Americans or latino/immigrants.

A better question would be did the rates of firearm offences decrease after the laws were changed averaged over population growth etc

So not really a good comparison.


I think there is no doubt that the rates of firearm violence have skyrocketed in these locations where strict controls were brought in believing they would fix the crimes.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2022, 6:42 pm

bladeracer wrote:
cz515 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


What are the rates if you exclude Chicago and New York, where owning firearms is the most difficult?


I would like to add that the areas you speak off are in general the most populas states, and those with a higher population of African Americans or latino/immigrants.

A better question would be did the rates of firearm offences decrease after the laws were changed averaged over population growth etc

So not really a good comparison.


I think there is no doubt that the rates of firearm violence have skyrocketed in these locations where strict controls were brought in believing they would fix the crimes.


This statement indicates a lack of understanding of that "rates" actually are. FYI they take the population into account. It is a ratio. Deaths per 100,000 of population.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2022, 6:52 pm

" I think there is no doubt that the rates of firearm violence have skyrocketed in these locations where strict controls were brought in believing they would fix the crimes."

Any statistics to show that?
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 7:38 pm

Oldbloke wrote:" I think there is no doubt that the rates of firearm violence have skyrocketed in these locations where strict controls were brought in believing they would fix the crimes."

Any statistics to show that?


This is Chicago's weekly crime report for last week. Not the state, just the city, less than half the population of Melbourne.
https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/1_PDFsam_Week-22.pdf
Chicago Weekly Crime.jpg
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Last week 12 murders, 46 sex assaults, 185 robberies, 122 batteries, 144 burglaries, 376 thefts and 234 motor vehicle thefts - in seven days.
This is an interactive map showing the location of all 12,000 murders in Chicago in the last 20 years - again, a city with half the population of Melbourne, covering an area roughly 40km tall by 20km wide.
https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Homicide-Map/53tx-phyr

This details the firearm laws in Illinois, and Chicago. From 1982 until 2010 possession of handguns was totally banned. For some years there were _no_ gun shops at all in the city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Illinois#Historical_restrictions_on_the_possession_of_handguns

Chicago should be the poster boy for anybody wanting to ban firearm ownership, the crime levels are worse than some warzones. But controls on firearm ownership have caused no changes in the crime stats over the decades - they do not work. They make it illegal for law-abiding people to own firearms, with no effect on crime, in a city that is being burned down around them. It is even illegal to carry a knife with a blade longer than 2.5-inches.

But the media focuses on a school shooting that takes nineteen lives...
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2022, 8:56 pm

"They make it illegal for law-abiding people to own firearms, "

My guess is that is a false statement.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 9:05 pm

Oldbloke wrote:"They make it illegal for law-abiding people to own firearms, "

My guess is that is a false statement.


Semantically or based on your reading of their laws?
If they ban firearms, and somebody wants a firearm, they have to get it illegally, meaning they are no longer law-abiding. Somebody that wants to own a firearm for a lawful purpose can't own one.

I saw some stats that 40% of the firearms seized in Chicago crime were found to have been sourced within Illinois, though still taken illegally into Chicago. The remaining 60% were found to have come from other states, also illegally. The strict firearm laws in Chicago didn't prevent criminal access to firearms at all.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2022, 9:17 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


What are the rates if you exclude Chicago and New York, where owning firearms is the most difficult?


It doesn't matter what happens in just a few cities. They are the rates for each country.

Something is not right in USA.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jun 2022, 10:10 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I think bullseye and I are on the same page, more or less. Its a trade off/compromise. You just have to compare the rates

US Rate is 12.21

AU Rate is 1.04

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


What are the rates if you exclude Chicago and New York, where owning firearms is the most difficult?


It doesn't matter what happens in just a few cities. They are the rates for each country.

Something is not right in USA.


Something is not right in some parts of the US, but most of it is very much like living in most parts of Australia, virtually no gun violence at all. Of _all_ 19,500 homicides in the US in 2021, 797 happened within that 40km by 20km rectangle in Chicago.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by womble » 07 Jun 2022, 4:27 am

That rectangle of generational gang violence goes back to the 1920,s .just an ongoing saga where they can never really broker peace.
Easy to access guns from Michigan.
Where there’s poverty theres drugs, where there’s drugs theres guns.
1 in 5 Chicago residents live in poverty.
Not so hard to explain Chicago.
Nevertheless Illinois dose’nt fare so badly overall considering. Credit where it’s due.https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm
Click on death rate per capita and Illinois dose’nt even make the top 12.
The link between wealthy real estate and poverty stricken areas is starkly obvious.
And your southern white trailer trash is easily outgunning your African American gangs.
Loss of industry and jobs, the crystal meth and subsequent opiate epidemics that tore through the southern states. Poverty and the stresses to survive, dose’nt discriminate.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bullzeye » 07 Jun 2022, 9:05 am

bladeracer wrote:
bullzeye wrote:It's time to investigate the data:

Population of Australia - 25 million
Population of USA - 331 million

So we are approx 7.55% the size of the USA in terms of population.

Now in 2020:

Australia had 34 homicides by firearm (out of 396 homicides in total).

The USA had 19,384 homicides by firearm (out of 24,576 homicides in total).

Now if we had the same rate of homicides by firearm as the USA - (7.55% of 19,384) - we would have 1463 homicides by firearm per year in Australia. But we only had 34.

You raise a point about trying to get the community working together to support each other. I think there will always be troubled and mentally ill people out there. That is just what makes us human. When these people get their hands on guns, the results as per above are clearly devastating.

Yes our gun laws are very restrictive, but it has allowed us to have a much lower rate of gun related murders proportionate to our population.


Now run your numbers again but remove the five most restricted cities/states...you'll find the numbers drop to negligible when you only count the places that don't have the tight restrictions.


Come on man. You've got 10,000 posts on here, surely you can see there is a problem in the US. You can't be blind to what is happening.

The issue in America is they have so many guns in circulation - no registration, no licenses - basically no record with a lot of these firearms. Any laws they enact won't have a strong impact for the simple reason that they are swimming in guns and basically any person can purchase a gun privately with no background check/ cooling off period/ no license or registration required. No safety training required either.

I've lived in the US, some areas feel fine. But you do get the feeling in certain cities/ towns/ neighbourhoods you shouldn't be walking around/ anything could randomly happen. Even walking through a big shopping centre with people everywhere - in the back of your mind you know something crazy could happen based on the simple fact that gun violence is more probable there.

You simply don't get this feeling in Australia. You know we used to have mass shootings in Australia pre 1996. Since then, these have dropped significantly. I think in Australia now - most of the gun homicides is gang on gang. Not random shootings of people in the public.

Yes, Chicago has a high number of gun homicides but look at the whole of the US - every state has many times more than Australia as a whole: https://www.statista.com/statistics/301 ... rearms-us/

Even US states with less than a million people have more gun homicides than the whole of Australia.

These are the statistics, plain and simple.

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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Oldbloke » 07 Jun 2022, 12:03 pm

bullzeye wrote:

These are the statistics, plain and simple.

usguns.jpg


No mate "mind boggling"
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 07 Jun 2022, 12:13 pm

bullzeye wrote:Come on man. You've got 10,000 posts on here, surely you can see there is a problem in the US. You can't be blind to what is happening.

The issue in America is they have so many guns in circulation - no registration, no licenses - basically no record with a lot of these firearms. Any laws they enact won't have a strong impact for the simple reason that they are swimming in guns and basically any person can purchase a gun privately with no background check/ cooling off period/ no license or registration required. No safety training required either.

I've lived in the US, some areas feel fine. But you do get the feeling in certain cities/ towns/ neighbourhoods you shouldn't be walking around/ anything could randomly happen. Even walking through a big shopping centre with people everywhere - in the back of your mind you know something crazy could happen based on the simple fact that gun violence is more probable there.

You simply don't get this feeling in Australia. You know we used to have mass shootings in Australia pre 1996. Since then, these have dropped significantly. I think in Australia now - most of the gun homicides is gang on gang. Not random shootings of people in the public.

Yes, Chicago has a high number of gun homicides but look at the whole of the US - every state has many times more than Australia as a whole: https://www.statista.com/statistics/301 ... rearms-us/

Even US states with less than a million people have more gun homicides than the whole of Australia.

These are the statistics, plain and simple.

usguns.jpg


I have said many times that there is most certainly a problem, but it's not the firearms, it's the people. They are killing each other at a huge rate, and will continue to do so even if they somehow managed to remove every single firearm from the country. Attacking the vast majority of Americans that have nothing to do with violent crime, despite owning millions of firearms will not fix the violence problem. If somebody is so intent on inflicting extreme violence against their community, taking lawful access to firearms away from them won't stop them.

Stop looking at it as if firearm violence is somehow different from any other violence, it's _all_ violence with the same root causes. When somebody murders with a car or truck we don't blame everybody that owns a vehicle, we blame the driver. When they use petrol we don't blame everybody that owns petrol, we blame the person. When a murder is prevented by a person with a firearm, we don't praise the firearm, we praise the person. But when somebody kills with a firearm...we blame everybody else that owns a firearm, millions of law-abiding people right across the country...and you believe that makes sense?

Yes, Americans can buy firearms illegally, just as Australians can here. We also have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of semi-auto rifles and shotguns here that simply disappeared in 1996. We know they were imported, we know they were sold into the population. And we know they were never handed in. Ruger 10/22's, Stirling Model 20's, Mini-14's, M1 Carbines, AK's, SKS's, AG42's, AR's, etc. But, we don't see them turning up in crimes, and they're not being used to commit mass murders. So clearly they're not an issue to public safety. Access to criminals illegally getting firearms can never be addressed through piling more laws on that will also be ignored. It certainly will not be addressed by lumping 99.9% of the law-abiding population in and labelling them all as mass murderers and putting restrictions on their choices of lifestyle when they have committed no crimes, and are a threat to nobody's safety. Countries that don't have the same level of violent crime have different societal values, they simply don't want to commit these atrocities against their communities, that's why they don't occur - it's not because they can't lawfully buy firearms. But treating the entire public as criminals, and placing more and more restrictions on their lawful activities, will, and does turn peaceful societies into the very societies that do want to strike back against their oppressors.

Stop deflecting violent crimes like these into your anti-gun arguments as it will never get us anywhere, as is proven every time it happens. The argument simply isn't logical so it can't possibly go anywhere. It simply dies out until the next atrocity occurs, then people like yourself will moan the same argument about guns being the cause until it again devolves into nothing - again.

As firearm owners we are the best placed to fix this. The anti-gun people are too frightened of firearms simply because they don't understand them and are happy to be told that they're bad and evil. We use them every day, we know there is no evil in them, or in we that use them. We can look at the problem logically without that mental block.

I have long believed that most anti-gun people are this way because of failings in their own character. They don't trust themselves to safely own a firearm due to their own failings and simply assume we are all just as useless as they are, they assume none of us have the self-control and discipline required to own firearms. We have owned firearms safely for many decades, and the vast majority of us never injure or kill anybody with them, not even accidently. These people certainly are not fit to own firearms, and nobody is forcing them to do so. But they have no right to insult the rest of us that are far more sensible than they are by assuming we're just like them.

These antigun morons are unsafe with most things, not just firearms. Tim Winton as a child used to sit in his bedroom window with his father's rifle and take sight on people in the street, so he assumes _you_ did the same things. I can't recall the name of the politician (I think) that found a pistol stashed in the toilet of his home, brought it out to the kitchen, pointed it at his brother and pulled the trigger. This guy believes _you_ would do the same thing given access to firearms simply because of his own horrendous failings in common sense and respect for other people. These people are absolutely correct that _they_ should never have access to firearms, but they do not have the right to assume you and I are messed up like they are.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bullzeye » 07 Jun 2022, 12:45 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bullzeye wrote:Come on man. You've got 10,000 posts on here, surely you can see there is a problem in the US. You can't be blind to what is happening.

The issue in America is they have so many guns in circulation - no registration, no licenses - basically no record with a lot of these firearms. Any laws they enact won't have a strong impact for the simple reason that they are swimming in guns and basically any person can purchase a gun privately with no background check/ cooling off period/ no license or registration required. No safety training required either.

I've lived in the US, some areas feel fine. But you do get the feeling in certain cities/ towns/ neighbourhoods you shouldn't be walking around/ anything could randomly happen. Even walking through a big shopping centre with people everywhere - in the back of your mind you know something crazy could happen based on the simple fact that gun violence is more probable there.

You simply don't get this feeling in Australia. You know we used to have mass shootings in Australia pre 1996. Since then, these have dropped significantly. I think in Australia now - most of the gun homicides is gang on gang. Not random shootings of people in the public.

Yes, Chicago has a high number of gun homicides but look at the whole of the US - every state has many times more than Australia as a whole: https://www.statista.com/statistics/301 ... rearms-us/

Even US states with less than a million people have more gun homicides than the whole of Australia.

These are the statistics, plain and simple.

usguns.jpg


I have said many times that there is most certainly a problem, but it's not the firearms, it's the people. They are killing each other at a huge rate, and will continue to do so even if they somehow managed to remove every single firearm from the country. Attacking the vast majority of Americans that have nothing to do with violent crime, despite owning millions of firearms will not fix the violence problem. If somebody is so intent on inflicting extreme violence against their community, taking lawful access to firearms away from them won't stop them.

Stop looking at it as if firearm violence is somehow different from any other violence, it's _all_ violence with the same root causes. When somebody murders with a car or truck we don't blame everybody that owns a vehicle, we blame the driver. When they use petrol we don't blame everybody that owns petrol, we blame the person. When a murder is prevented by a person with a firearm, we don't praise the firearm, we praise the person. But when somebody kills with a firearm...we blame everybody else that owns a firearm, millions of law-abiding people right across the country...and you believe that makes sense?

Yes, Americans can buy firearms illegally, just as Australians can here. We also have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of semi-auto rifles and shotguns here that simply disappeared in 1996. We know they were imported, we know they were sold into the population. And we know they were never handed in. Ruger 10/22's, Stirling Model 20's, Mini-14's, M1 Carbines, AK's, SKS's, AG42's, AR's, etc. But, we don't see them turning up in crimes, and they're not being used to commit mass murders. So clearly they're not an issue to public safety. Access to criminals illegally getting firearms can never be addressed through piling more laws on that will also be ignored. It certainly will not be addressed by lumping 99.9% of the law-abiding population in and labelling them all as mass murderers and putting restrictions on their choices of lifestyle when they have committed no crimes, and are a threat to nobody's safety. Countries that don't have the same level of violent crime have different societal values, they simply don't want to commit these atrocities against their communities, that's why they don't occur - it's not because they can't lawfully buy firearms. But treating the entire public as criminals, and placing more and more restrictions on their lawful activities, will, and does turn peaceful societies into the very societies that do want to strike back against their oppressors.

Stop deflecting violent crimes like these into your anti-gun arguments as it will never get us anywhere, as is proven every time it happens. The argument simply isn't logical so it can't possibly go anywhere. It simply dies out until the next atrocity occurs, then people like yourself will moan the same argument about guns being the cause until it again devolves into nothing - again.

As firearm owners we are the best placed to fix this. The anti-gun people are too frightened of firearms simply because they don't understand them and are happy to be told that they're bad and evil. We use them every day, we know there is no evil in them, or in we that use them. We can look at the problem logically without that mental block.

I have long believed that most anti-gun people are this way because of failings in their own character. They don't trust themselves to safely own a firearm due to their own failings and simply assume we are all just as useless as they are, they assume none of us have the self-control and discipline required to own firearms. We have owned firearms safely for many decades, and the vast majority of us never injure or kill anybody with them, not even accidently. These people certainly are not fit to own firearms, and nobody is forcing them to do so. But they have no right to insult the rest of us that are far more sensible than they are by assuming we're just like them.

These antigun morons are unsafe with most things, not just firearms. Tim Winton as a child used to sit in his bedroom window with his father's rifle and take sight on people in the street, so he assumes _you_ did the same things. I can't recall the name of the politician (I think) that found a pistol stashed in the toilet of his home, brought it out to the kitchen, pointed it at his brother and pulled the trigger. This guy believes _you_ would do the same thing given access to firearms simply because of his own horrendous failings in common sense and respect for other people. These people are absolutely correct that _they_ should never have access to firearms, but they do not have the right to assume you and I are messed up like they are.


Yep - you are right people are the problem and when you allow basically unhindered access of firearms to a large population - you ended up getting "people who eventually snap" purchasing guns (legally) and then shooting up schools.

Is it worth it?

If you take firearms out of the equation - you said ""They are killing each other at a huge rate, and will continue to do so even if they somehow managed to remove every single firearm from the country.""

So if we take away the firearms homicides in the US in 2020 they had 5191 non-firearm homicides out of 331 million people. = 15.6 per 1 million people.

Australia had 362 non-firearm homicides out of 25 million people. = 14.5 per 1 million people.

I don't think your statement is accurate. If you take out the firearms, our homicide rates are not wildly different.

Everyone has an opinion but the statistics speak for themselves.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 07 Jun 2022, 12:51 pm

bullzeye wrote:Everyone has an opinion but the statistics speak for themselves.


The beauty of statistics is that you can make them work to push whatever agenda you want to.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bullzeye » 07 Jun 2022, 2:08 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bullzeye wrote:Everyone has an opinion but the statistics speak for themselves.


The beauty of statistics is that you can make them work to push whatever agenda you want to.


So as I said earlier, in 2020:

Australia had 34 homicides by firearm = 1.4 per 1 million people
(25 million population)

The USA had 19,384 homicides by firearm = 58 per 1 million people
(331 million population)

Any chance you could post your stats that support your argument?
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by bladeracer » 07 Jun 2022, 2:19 pm

bullzeye wrote:Any chance you could post your stats that support your argument?


I just told you how meaningless statistics are.
Why don't you explain your reasoning as to how you figure the public will be safer by you giving up your access to firearms?
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by cz515 » 07 Jun 2022, 3:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Stop looking at it as if firearm violence is somehow different from any other violence, it's _all_ violence with the same root causes. When somebody murders with a car or truck we don't blame everybody that owns a vehicle, we blame the driver. When they use petrol we don't blame everybody that owns petrol, we blame the person. When a murder is prevented by a person with a firearm, we don't praise the firearm, we praise the person. But when somebody kills with a firearm...we blame everybody else that owns a firearm, millions of law-abiding people right across the country...and you believe that makes sense?




Yes let's remove the firearms, or just have some more restrictions related to unlicensed people having access to fitearms, including safe storage.

That's pretty reasonable and will effects a lot of gun violence. Will not bring it to zero, and no one says it can be done anyway
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by Larry » 07 Jun 2022, 3:20 pm

Micheal Moore did a good documentary into the violence issue in the US and directly compared it with Canada. His finding of the root cause was fear. He found that Americans had a much larger underlying level of everyday fear. Where as in Canada people where comfortable to live at home with the front door unlocked. I do believe that he is onto something with that conclusion. The US has a long history of fear being used as a tool by the government to manage the population. Gun ownership in the US is largely driven by fear and the need to feel protected.
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by womble » 07 Jun 2022, 4:21 pm

Canada is 2.05 per capita.
And yet they want to enact a handgun ban.
Umm why ?

Population roughly 40 million, 277 homicides by firearms 2020
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Re: Canada to ban sale of handguns

Post by womble » 07 Jun 2022, 4:37 pm

I dream of a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned
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