$7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

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$7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 7:59 am

I guess this is what happens when you let politics get in the way of what should be just another normal everyday type hunting situation.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/7150-for-each-animal-killed-in-nsw-hunting-program-20140923-10kogt.html

$7150 for each animal killed in NSW hunting program

DateSeptember 24, 2014 - 12:15AM

"How much does it cost to kill a rabbit? More than $7100, if you are the NSW government, whose controversial hunting in national parks program has garnered ridicule from across the political spectrum.

Official figures show the government's so-called "pest control" trial, which began earlier this year, has killed fewer than 200 animals at a cost of $1.416 million.

The bill to taxpayers has cast serious doubt on the cost-effectiveness of the amateur hunting program, which was introduced after former premier Barry O'Farrell struck a deal with the Shooters and Fishers Party.

Some 198 animals, almost 70 per cent of them rabbits, were killed over five operations between February and August. It equates to $7152 for each animal. The government says most spending involved set-up costs.

Other animals killed included goats, pigs, deer and foxes. The operations involved 43 National Parks and Wildlife Service staff shifts.

Twelve parks are open to the program, which allows volunteer hunters to shoot animals in an area covering 485,000 hectares.

Not a single animal was killed over two weekend operations at Woomargama National Park and the Goonoo State Conservation Area, despite up to seven staff being rostered on each day.

Greens MP Mehreen Faruqi said the program was established to "placate the Shooters and Fishers Party" and NPWS staff were "babysitting amateur shooters at extraordinary cost to the taxpayer".

"This government needs to stop pouring money into ineffective and wasteful programs and direct it into scientifically proven programs carried out by professionals," she said.

The government agreed to hunting in national parks to win the support of Shooters Party MPs Robert Borsak and Robert Brown for electricity privatisation laws.

However, relations later frayed after Mr O'Farrell's decision to abolish the Game Council and restrict the access of hunters to national parks. Mr Brown described the money spent on the trial as "disgraceful". He said more national parks should be opened to licensed shooters, and the hunts should be unsupervised, claiming more animals could then be killed for a lower cost.

"I don't mean to be disrespectful to the National Parks and Wildlife rangers, but experienced hunters don't need toilet cleaners showing them how to hunt," he said.

A spokesman for the NSW Office of Environment and Heritage said establishment costs comprised most of the spending, including the development of "procedures and protocols".

He said ground shooting was required for a small number of "trap-shy or bait-shy animals" that were resistant to other pest management techniques.

"However, the strategic benefit of removing individuals from an already reduced population is extremely valuable," the spokesman said.

"Any pest animals removed in these reserves as part of the … trial will be vitally significant in ensuring that the pest populations do not increase and remain at these low levels".

About 26 qualified shooters have so far taken part in the program and a further 518 people have "formally expressed interest", the spokesman said."
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Usurper » 24 Sep 2014, 8:03 am

LMFAO.

No wonder our budget is f***ed.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 8:14 am

Usurper wrote:LMFAO.

No wonder our budget is f***ed.


Yep that's a glaring example of how things get so screwed up when politics is used to make decisions. Bloody hell it cost me about $5 to shoot a couple the other day including ammo, fuel and running costs. :lol:

We really need to do something about politics - its destroying our lives! :roll:
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Chronos » 24 Sep 2014, 8:30 am

Yep, it's called bureaucracy

What does it cost the government to do anything? About 10 to 20 times what the private sector could do it for.

Their regulations mean they had to fit out each volunteer with both a GPS loaded with maps showing exclusion zones as well as a spot tracker.

Three levels of communication including a VHF mast and repeater, sat phones, UHF.

Endless box ticking meetings, briefings, training, vehicles fitted out with recovery gear, first aid kits, gun lockers and defibrillators for every field officer

It should also be pointed out that these ground shooting operations are the last step in a pest control program of baiting, trapping and aerial shooting. No mention of the cost of those. Perhaps the high cost and low animal count is more a reflection of the success of these other operations.

For example in the park where I shot they had taken 1400 goats out of the park from January to April through trapping and arial shooting. 400 goats had been shot from helicopter the weekend before we went there. No wonder they were jumpy :)

It's called supplementary pest control and the laws of diminishing returns means the last step in the process will always yield less results for more cost/work and the fact is if SPC volunteers weren't going in to shoot they'd be paying pro shooters to do it.

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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Seconds » 24 Sep 2014, 9:26 am

If only there were hundreds of license law abiding firearms owners who were eager to go out and do this for free...

If only...
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 9:34 am

Chronos wrote:Yep, it's called bureaucracy

What does it cost the government to do anything? About 10 to 20 times what the private sector could do it for.

Their regulations mean they had to fit out each volunteer with both a GPS loaded with maps showing exclusion zones as well as a spot tracker.

Three levels of communication including a VHF mast and repeater, sat phones, UHF.

Endless box ticking meetings, briefings, training, vehicles fitted out with recovery gear, first aid kits, gun lockers and defibrillators for every field officer

It should also be pointed out that these ground shooting operations are the last step in a pest control program of baiting, trapping and aerial shooting. No mention of the cost of those. Perhaps the high cost and low animal count is more a reflection of the success of these other operations.

For example in the park where I shot they had taken 1400 goats out of the park from January to April through trapping and arial shooting. 400 goats had been shot from helicopter the weekend before we went there. No wonder they were jumpy :)

It's called supplementary pest control and the laws of diminishing returns means the last step in the process will always yield less results for more cost/work and the fact is if SPC volunteers weren't going in to shoot they'd be paying pro shooters to do it.

Chronos


Spot on Chronos, its sad to see these unnecessary costs coming about as the result of politics and all the other BS etc - it could have been done for free like we do for farmers.

Ah well what can we do, they want to play power struggle games at the expense of our wallets and we are powerless to stop them. :x just another example of the world go mad to my mind.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Shotfox » 24 Sep 2014, 9:38 am

Gee is that all $7150 good value I thought . Hmm lets compare the green / labour pink bats scheme. Or the solar rebate scheme - now there is value - NOT. As an R licence holder there is mountain of paperwork etc to get through and it is inefficent from a business standard but seems good value compare to other political brainstorms. Mabey just mabey they should consult with shooters OR is that a dumb idea?
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Redwood » 24 Sep 2014, 10:11 am

Seconds wrote:If only there were hundreds of license law abiding firearms owners who were eager to go out and do this for free...


I know this website which might have such people. :idea:
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by mausermate » 24 Sep 2014, 10:35 am

Chronos wrote:
It should also be pointed out that these ground shooting operations are the last step in a pest control program of baiting, trapping and aerial shooting. No mention of the cost of those. Perhaps the high cost and low animal count is more a reflection of the success of these other operations.

For example in the park where I shot they had taken 1400 goats out of the park from January to April through trapping and arial shooting. 400 goats had been shot from helicopter the weekend before we went there.

Chronos


there you go!
isn't it wonderful how our media encourage false political argument by only telling a small part of the story.
Must have been a bit stinky up there with 400 fresh dead goats on the ground Chronos :lol:
Now that's been said, who's coming for a shot?
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Baronvonrort » 24 Sep 2014, 1:18 pm

There was a study in Tasmania which put shooting by contract shooters as the cheapest option compared to poisoning etc,i will find it later and post it.

The Government FAAST regulations for aerial culling jack up the costs, must use a turbine powered chopper no piston engines, pay a spotter to do what a Go pro camera could do,lots of red tape to sort through.

If they use a R22/R44 it is much cheaper these choppers are used by the Police in some countries, the Pilot can see the shooters barrel and give the shooter a good angle without having to talk, sitting in the back of a turbine chopper makes it much harder because the Pilot cannot see the best angles for the shooter.

R44 doing aerial culling on the cheap in Texas-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx66ys4JG5o
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by teedo » 24 Sep 2014, 1:23 pm

Somebody at the gov has their scoring system wrong.

Spending is meant to be low like golf fellas... Not high like Bowling.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 2:36 pm

Yes it's definitely not a "Technique or Method" issue this is clearly another case of Bureaucracy being the issue and ramping up costs to a ridiculous level, no doubt in part to appease the anti hunting and legal types, just the usual crap which ends up costing everyone through the nose when it could be done for peanuts or even free like we do now for farmers without too many issues.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Fozzy » 24 Sep 2014, 2:41 pm

"I don't mean to be disrespectful to the National Parks and Wildlife rangers, but experienced hunters don't need toilet cleaners showing them how to hunt," he said.

That is possibly the quote of the year.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Chronos » 24 Sep 2014, 3:23 pm

Fozzy wrote:"I don't mean to be disrespectful to the National Parks and Wildlife rangers, but experienced hunters don't need toilet cleaners showing them how to hunt," he said.

That is possibly the quote of the year.



Unfortunately it's a bit off the mark, as I said in another thread the guys running the SPC program are all experienced hunters,shooters and pest controllers and not the stereotypical semi hippy university educated ranger I was expecting. Instead they are people who've applied for the job of traveling around the state for weeks at a time away from their wives guiding shooters through the process of hoop jumping.

I agree shooters should be allowed to "hunt" on more public land but unfortunately the frame work given to them and us by the Ofarrel government will not allow it. In fact it seems the very parks selected for the three year trial were chosen because of their difficult access and the failure of other program's to irradiate goats in particular

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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 3:24 pm

Fozzy wrote:"I don't mean to be disrespectful to the National Parks and Wildlife rangers, but experienced hunters don't need toilet cleaners showing them how to hunt," he said.

That is possibly the quote of the year.


That Quote was from Robert Borsak from memory - sounds about right, we don't need babysitters on any other hunting trips so why now? The whole thing was set up to fail and so it would appear it has (financially speaking).

I can't imagine it continuing on too much longer once the Media does their usual spin doctor treatment too it, only a matter of when not if I would think.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 3:29 pm

Chronos wrote:Unfortunately it's a bit off the mark, as I said in another thread the guys running the SPC program are all experienced hunters,shooters and pest controllers and not the stereotypical semi hippy university educated ranger I was expecting. Instead they are people who've applied for the job of traveling around the state for weeks at a time away from their wives guiding shooters through the process of hoop jumping.

I agree shooters should be allowed to "hunt" on more public land but unfortunately the frame work given to them and us by the Ofarrel government will not allow it. In fact it seems the very parks selected for the three year trial were chosen because of their difficult access and the failure of other program's to irradiate goats in particular

Chronos


Well it definitely sounds like it was set up to fail mate, sad isn't it, politics gets in the way of our pastime yet again, bloody disgrace really.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by SendIt » 24 Sep 2014, 3:40 pm

The bit that's more annoying about this, I bet the pollies will look at this and say "using civilian hunters doesn't work" like it's our fault their bulls**t racked up such an absurb price tag.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Chronos » 24 Sep 2014, 3:47 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Well it definitely sounds like it was set up to fail mate, sad isn't it, politics gets in the way of our pastime yet again, bloody disgrace really.


I'm not sure set up to fail is the right description but it's certainly a long way from the "hunting in national parks" we all thought we were going to get under the original 79 park agreement.

There is no hunting, just a shooting of ferals by volunteers program that may never see out its 3 year trial. But if no one gets behind it it's doomed anyway and some shooters will happily say "see we said it wouldn't work"

It's disappointing that only such a small number of shooters signed up, imagine the message it would have sent if 10,000 shooters volunteered to help the government rid our national parks of cats, goats, pigs and foxes.

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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Korkt » 24 Sep 2014, 4:10 pm

Chronos wrote:I'm not sure set up to fail is the right description but it's certainly a long way from the "hunting in national parks" we all thought we were going to get under the original 79 park agreement.


If you had the inside info on the program though and had the budget for the costs involved, number of people signed up etc. surely you could see this was doomed from the outset?

The bounties on critters are $5 - $50 depending on the animal and state right? Average it and say it's worth spending $25 an animal, that would be 56,640 pests culled for the budget of $1.416m

How were they expecting "about 26 qualified shooters" and "a further 518 people" who've expressed interest to take out 56,640 pests between them :roll:

Just let people hunt when they're able/willing without all the bulls**t red tape. How f***ing hard is it?

Edit - Not ranting at you if that's what it sounded like, Chronos ;)
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Re: $7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Chronos » 24 Sep 2014, 4:21 pm

If you suggesting I had any of this inside info on the program you're sadly mistaken.

I'm just one if the 500 odd optimistic suckers who filled out the form on the ssaa website, one of the 60 odd who did the required training and one of the 26 who've participated in the program. Nothing more

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Re: $7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Korkt » 24 Sep 2014, 4:22 pm

No mate, not pointing fingers at anyone here.

Edited my reply above to say as much.
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Re: $7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Chronos » 24 Sep 2014, 4:24 pm

Korkt wrote:No mate, not pointing fingers at anyone here.

Edited my reply above to say as much.


No worries

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Re: $7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by bigfellascott » 24 Sep 2014, 5:18 pm

Chronos I definitely feel this was set up to achieve the outcome it did, this was always going to be an expensive exercise using the model they chose and one can only assume the went this way to highlight how inefficient/expensive this programme is and the little reward for the $$ spent. Not having a go at you or the SSAA and anyone else involved but I reckon these Bureaucrats knew full well that this would be the outcome.

Quite simply you don't need babysitters and all the other stuff you mentioned in a previous post (maybe a GPS) but really all the other stuff as we know isn't really needed, the SF model seemed to work well, its a shame they wouldn't allow it to be rolled out into NP's too, but I guess there was a reason for that and I think we are seeing it in the news today - just another stitch up!

Anyway mate good on you for having a go, you can't do much more than that.
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Re: $7150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Warrigul » 24 Sep 2014, 7:29 pm

Baronvonrort wrote:There was a study in Tasmania which put shooting by contract shooters as the cheapest option compared to poisoning etc,i will find it later and post it.



However there is a big difference between experienced shooters and blokes from a city rifle club who have shot at a target to prove their marksmanship. I do a little bit and often take someone for a trip to further the sport, some of them are woeful in the bush when starting out. Most of the contract shooters I know have done it from a very young age and it is second nature.

In Tasmania it is a bit easier for us as most of it is spotlighting, what little I have done on the mainland has involved a lot of miles and highly developed skills

I wonder how the program would have went if there was more vetting based on experience? It should also have been allowed to develop over a few years, no one knows an area properly on their first visit.
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Re: $7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Turtleburp » 24 Sep 2014, 8:40 pm

In the paper so it must be true...

Compare this to starting up a towing business - the $7,150 includes, buying a truck, advertising and persuading the missus to take calls (no small cost) - if asked how much to tow your first vehicle what would you quote?

Here are some quotes that I would take to the bank:

But if no one gets behind it it's doomed anyway

It should also be pointed out that these ground shooting operations are the last step in a pest control program of baiting, trapping and aerial shooting. No mention of the cost of those. Perhaps the high cost and low animal count is more a reflection of the success of these other operations.
- or provision of a comparison cost by species-

the guys running the SPC program are all experienced hunters,shooters and pest controllers and not the stereotypical semi hippy university educated ranger I was expecting

Where Chronos is wrong though...

In fact it seems the very parks selected for the three year trial were chosen because of their difficult access and the failure of other program's to irradiate goats in particular
NO ONE WANTS RADIOACTIVE GOATS ;)
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Re: $7,150 for each animal killed in NSW Hunting Programme

Post by Chronos » 24 Sep 2014, 9:16 pm

Turtleburp wrote:In the paper so it must be true...

Compare this to starting up a towing business - the $7,150 includes, buying a truck, advertising and persuading the missus to take calls (no small cost) - if asked how much to tow your first vehicle what would you quote?

Here are some quotes that I would take to the bank:

But if no one gets behind it it's doomed anyway

It should also be pointed out that these ground shooting operations are the last step in a pest control program of baiting, trapping and aerial shooting. No mention of the cost of those. Perhaps the high cost and low animal count is more a reflection of the success of these other operations.
- or provision of a comparison cost by species-

the guys running the SPC program are all experienced hunters,shooters and pest controllers and not the stereotypical semi hippy university educated ranger I was expecting

Where Chronos is wrong though...

In fact it seems the very parks selected for the three year trial were chosen because of their difficult access and the failure of other program's to irradiate goats in particular
NO ONE WANTS RADIOACTIVE GOATS ;)



LOL would make them easy to find at night though...shame shooting must be done during daylight hours.

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Last edited by Chronos on 25 Sep 2014, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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