Gun owner robbed and then charged...

[RoginaJack]

Came across this article as reported in the Gympie Times and made interesting reading re securely fixing safe to floor. -

BRENTON Jesse Miller's day was pretty bad on September 6 when he found out his house had been robbed.

Several items were stolen from the 26-year-old Gympie man's home while he was at work.

Included in the count of pinched property was a gun and gun safe.

The court heard the burglary happened after several people were evicted from the property and the thieves entered the home through a back door.

Miller reported the theft but things got a whole lot worse when police came to investigate the crime scene.

The story unfolded in Gympie Magistrates Court on Monday. It heard how Miller's luck went from bad to worse after the theft.

The court heard that police investigating Miller's home checked where the gun safe had been stored.

Miller, a licensed gun owner, had bolted the safe to the floor in a spare room in the house as his licence had required him to do.

However, police saw no signs of the gun safe being forcibly removed and concluded the two timber screws Miller used to bolt the safe down were not satisfactory.

The court heard that the screws, one 1.6cm and the other 1.9cm, were only long enough to screw through the linoleum floor and into a thin layer of masonite beneath.

The two screws did not bolt into the timber floor below, which the court heard meant the safe was not secure enough.

Gympie police prosecutor Sergeant Lisa Manns told the court police described the security job as "grossly inadequate to provide secure fixing of the safe to the floor" and as a result Miller was charged with failing to securely store weapons.

One gun, a category A Miroku Stirling shotgun, was in the safe when it was stolen and the court heard it was yet to be recovered.

Miller's defence lawyer Ripley Perkins said his client, who pleaded guilty to the single charge, was "quite the loser in all of this".

Magistrate M Baldwin said while Miller was a victim of crime himself, the charge highlighted the importance of being "mindful" of the laws surrounding gun ownership.

Miller, who had no previous criminal history, was fined $220.

No conviction was recorded against him.

http://m.gympietimes.com.au/news/gun-ow ... d/2444060/

Cheers,

[North East]

Well at least he knows how to secure a gun safe properly now.

[cavok]

I sometimes worry about some gun owners after reading some articles like this, surely on day 1 we are aware that we need to secure our firearms correctly, as mileage is made of incidents like this by those who want all our guns, store correctly or not. Storage of firearms has been headline news and all ranges I've seen display posters warning that firearms must be stored correctly, with posters. I assume all firearm owners have been to one range at one time, if only to get their training courses over.

[nords]

The court heard that the screws, one 1.6cm and the other 1.9cm, were only long enough to screw through the linoleum floor and into a thin layer of masonite beneath.

The robbery suck no two ways about it and I feel for the guy.

That's a pathetic effort at securing your shooters though

[Chronos]

Yup, probably someone we don't want in our shooting community.

Every month there's ads in the shooting mags that say "secure your guns, secure your sport"

Chronos

[Warrigul]

He probably has no practical carpentry skills(they are out there) and thought he was doing a great job and you want to exile him from the shooting community for doing a crap job of securing his safe?

At least they were locked up and should have been(probably were)inspected by the Police.

There is something sadly wrong when you come in on the side of the criminal rather than the gun owner- even if by default.

[cavok]

We as the gun owner are responsible for our attempts to secure our firearms. If we are in any doubt about how secure our firearms are we owe it to other shooters to get advice, get assistance if need be, get expert advice to ensure our safe is totally and absolutely secure. We could if in doubt attempt to move our secured safe by having some friends around to ensure out safe could not be moved. If that was inappropriate we could visit our local police station to get them to provide assistance. If police did not wish to be involved we could ask a fellow shooter the desired length and best way to secure our safe. If we wanted to take shortcuts or not put the effort in, yes, throw them to the wolves, so WE all learn from that event.

[Westy]

He probably has no practical carpentry skills(they are out there) and thought he was doing a great job and you want to exile him from the shooting community for doing a crap job of securing his safe?

At least they were locked up and should have been(probably were)inspected by the Police.

There is something sadly wrong when you come in on the side of the criminal rather than the gun owner- even if by default.

x 2 I believe there are no bad gun owners just thieving bastards that make having a safe nessecery!!!! I'd be happy with mine still in the wardrobe and carried on the parcel shelf of the car!!!!!

[RoginaJack]

He probably has no practical carpentry skills(they are out there) and thought he was doing a great job and you want to exile him from the shooting community for doing a crap job of securing his safe?

And I suppose you're going to try and convince us that he also lacks practical maths skills - 4 holes in bottom of safe plus 2 holes in back, so he only puts in 2 screws! Yeah, right. Warrigul, more likely a case of "Yeah, she'll be right, mate, 2 screws'll do."

[Warrigul]

We as the gun owner are responsible for our attempts to secure our firearms. If we are in any doubt about how secure our firearms are we owe it to other shooters to get advice, get assistance if need be, get expert advice to ensure our safe is totally and absolutely secure. We could if in doubt attempt to move our secured safe by having some friends around to ensure out safe could not be moved. If that was inappropriate we could visit our local police station to get them to provide assistance. If police did not wish to be involved we could ask a fellow shooter the desired length and best way to secure our safe. If we wanted to take shortcuts or not put the effort in, yes, throw them to the wolves, so WE all learn from that event.

Once again you are taking the side of the criminal over a law abiding gun owner, it was a judgement call. Had the law said two 3/8" coach screws 55mm long through hardwood at least 16mm thick and he didn't do that then he would have been guilty beyond all doubt, but the law doesn't state any definitive test of security nor any benchmark that we need to achieve.

Your proposing to throwing any gun owner to the wolves simply because they are crap carpenter and it will teach the rest of us a lesson is a bastard of an act and speaks volumes.

[Warrigul]

He probably has no practical carpentry skills(they are out there) and thought he was doing a great job and you want to exile him from the shooting community for doing a crap job of securing his safe?

And I suppose you're going to try and convince us that he also lacks practical maths skills - 4 holes in bottom of safe plus 2 holes in back, so he only puts in 2 screws! Yeah, right. Warrigul, more likely a case of "Yeah, she'll be right, mate, 2 screws'll do."

My issue is that it is purely judgement: on the part of the owner(yep that will do the job), the Police- "that is insufficient, there should have been four dynabolts into reinforced concrete on each surface and it should have been glued down with clag", and the Government- "Nah securely fastened should be enough"(WTF is securely fastened?).

So you are proposing that all securing holes are always filled?

Honestly I have seen many attempts by people to do their own tradework and in at least 25% of cases you just shake your head and wonder why they didn't go next door and get the four year old to do the job.

Unless you specify every single step for some people they are gonna make a dogs breakfast of it.

By default you are also supporting the criminal by saying it was the gun owners fault.

[cavok]

Not living in sunny Queensland, this is what a search provided. The person being made reference to here is guilty as charged, throw him/her to the wolves for there disregard of securing their firearms, and possibly not giving a stuff for the law.

" Storage and Display Firearms must be kept unloaded. When not in a person's physical possession, a firearm/weapon must be stored unloaded in a locked container with the bolt removed or the action broken. For category D, H or R weapons, the container must be a rigid structure made of solid steel and be bolted to the frame or floor of a permanent building. For any other weapons, the container must be a rigid structure made of solid steel or timber and if it weighs less than 150kg, be securely fixed to the frame or floor of a permanent building. The container also must have a sturdy lock and be kept locked when the weapon is not in use. If the weapon is in a vehicle, it must be either: locked in the boot; locked in a metal container fixed to the vehicle or in a securely closed container that is out of sight. The metal container or anything attached to it must not suggest a weapon is inside.""

NOTE I am nor making a judgement on the person, the courts have made the judgement based on evidence and the owner was represented. The owner of the firearms had responsibility to ensure that the storage complied with the act. Yes, thrown to the wolves, but get the criminal and throw them even further.

[North East]

The safe wasn't secured…every one else has to do it…stuff him.

[nords]

He probably has no practical carpentry skills(they are out there) and thought he was doing a great job and you want to exile him from the shooting community for doing a crap job of securing his safe?

I find it hard to get behind that.

The break in sucks, the thief is a %&(*#$ and the guy is a victim. All true.

The guy may not be a carpenter but he knows the point is to stock be safe being easily removed. After you've put two "screws, one 1.6cm and the other 1.9cm" into the timber floor you could just pull the safe out with 1 hand. Giving the thing a test push would have shown that after he did the work.

Could anyone look at it and honestly say "Yes... That is going to be hard to remove". I can't see it.

I'm no carpenter or tradie of any sort, but he must have been able to see this was weak? You don't think there is any truth in that?

I suspect a little laziness?

Makes the rest of us who do the right thing look bad.

[AusC]

The safe wasn't secured…every one else has to do it…stuff him.

I wouldn't say "throw him to the wolves" as has been suggested but fair enough losing his gear.

If there was no ill-intent no need to get criminal though?

[bigfellascott]

s**t happens - clearly ol mate didn't secure the safe well enough - however its a shame more focus isn't put on the ****** that broke in and robbed him in the first place, instead the victim gets nailed, lets hope they throw the book at the bastard when/if they catch him.

It wasn't all that long ago that we used to hang our firearms on the wall or leave em in the cupboard and that was considered normal and acceptable. now unfortunately in this world of control everything one does that no long is acceptable.

[Warrigul]

s**t happens - clearly ol mate didn't secure the safe well enough - however its a shame more focus isn't put on the ****** that broke in and robbed him in the first place, instead the victim gets nailed, lets hope they throw the book at the bastard when/if they catch him.

It wasn't all that long ago that we used to hang our firearms on the wall or leave em in the cupboard and that was considered normal and acceptable. now unfortunately in this world of control everything one does that no long is acceptable.

I agree totally,

Yes, I am tired of having to compensate for the Police's lack of ability to keep crime in check. For those that remember, Initially firearm safes were brought up as a means to keep firearms out of the hands of kids. Indeed a chained rack was considered sufficient. Then the recommendations turned into law and the focus turned on us being liable for something that was already a crime(theft of firearms).

They won't catch the theif, the only way they can look less idiotic is to deflect blame elsewhere.

The law requires us to secure the safe and as quoted "Miller, a licensed gun owner, had bolted the safe to the floor in a spare room in the house as his licence had required him to do."

Yep he is a crap handyman but for those like Chronos and Cavok who would readily throw someone to their fate, let them pray that some random Policeman or Judge doesn't find them to have not done sufficient - IN THEIR OPINION- to secure their safe should some low life bastard decide to break the law and steal their posessions..

There is no such beast as a safe that can't be flogged or opened, it is only a matter of how long your preparations delay the theif.

As far as throwing to the wolves and not wanting them be be a shooter, that is simplistic and reprehensible.

[RoginaJack]

No Warrigul you are talking dribble.

No where have I supported the criminal. The facts as reported by the police were that the safe was fixed to the floor with 2 screws, nothing else, nothing more. The screws were no longer than 1.9cm, (3/4inch) and of insufficient length to reach and screw into the wooden floorboards beneath.

And why should't ALL the holes be used to fix the safe, after all that's what they are there for and a lot of the safes are also supplied with bolts.
I suppose you would be happy to fix your 52" plasma TV to the wall with 2 similar length screws and let the kids play under it.

[Warrigul]

No Warrigul you are talking dribble.

No where have I supported the criminal. The facts as reported by the police were that the safe was fixed to the floor with 2 screws, nothing else, nothing more. The screws were no longer than 1.9cm, (3/4inch) and of insufficient length to reach and screw into the wooden floorboards beneath.

And why should't ALL the holes be used to fix the safe, after all that's what they are there for and a lot of the safes are also supplied with bolts.
I suppose you would be happy to fix your 52" plasma TV to the wall with 2 similar length screws and let the kids play under it.

I didn't say you did, Chronos and Cavok clearly offered the victim up for slaughter however and this is what I was on about.

Some people have no idea and totally lack any practical skills whatsoever. Unless there is a specific minimum requirement(e.g. two 50mm coach screws etc etc) you can't hang someone for being useless. "Securely fitted" is no standard or specification" it is airy fairy.If there was NO attempt to secure the safe at all that would be a different matter.

On the subject of mountings I have three safes, one has three fastenings and the other two only a couple each, more would be unneccesary overkill in their cases.

I would also draw your attention to the allowance in the law for a Wooden receptacle, this would make you wonder at how unjust it is to be fined for having a steel safe screwd to a wooden floor is.

It is a minefield.

[cavok]

Possibly that is why no conviction was recorded and the fine was minimal. Hence as no conviction was recorded he was not thrown to any wolves as what I wrote previously was over the top. We all learn as we move along, however some dare I say practices of securing a safe or securing a firearm in "a suitable safe" "suitable ammunition container" is obvious, and if someone is unsure, ask.

""Magistrate M Baldwin said while Miller was a victim of crime himself, the charge highlighted the importance of being "mindful" of the laws surrounding gun ownership.
Miller, who had no previous criminal history, was fined $220.
No conviction was recorded against him.

[RoginaJack]

By default you are also supporting the criminal by saying it was the gun owners fault.

Yeah, whatever!

The other downer to this sorry chapter is that there is a good chance that the Insurance claim for the theft of the safe and shotgun will be declined 'cause the Police Report states that the safe was not secured satisfactorily. Bummer!

[brisb]

Hopefully it's not too much of a black mark and old mate can reapply for his license in a few years and not make the same mistake.