Martin Place Terrorist did NOT hold Firearms licence

[ex_reven]

OK, 1. Less requirement to maintain handgun. //Sugar, 10 matches/practice per year, very reasonable.

2. Side arm for hunting> // hunting what, that's what rifles are for. Not much harm to a pig using a .22.

Handguns are a great way of quickly dispatching livesstock and vermin - I can think of a few times I've had to use a rifle where a pistol would have been far more practical to put down animals. Provided the user is correctly versed in handling a pistol safely, I can't see any issue with it.

As for attendances - I have to agree - while having an attendance requirement can be a huge PITA I'm glad in a way as it discourages the wrong kind of people from buying them for the sake of it or other nefarious reasons. In a perfect world, people licenced for pistols should know their handgun in and out and should be able to use it by second nature in a safe and responsible manner - something that requires practice at a range.

[cavok]

OK, 1. Less requirement to maintain handgun. //Sugar, 10 matches/practice per year, very reasonable.

2. Side arm for hunting> // hunting what, that's what rifles are for. Not much harm to a pig using a .22.

Handguns are a great way of quickly dispatching livesstock and vermin - I can think of a few times I've had to use a rifle where a pistol would have been far more practical to put down animals. Provided the user is correctly versed in handling a pistol safely, I can't see any issue with it.

As for attendances - I have to agree - while having an attendance requirement can be a huge PITA I'm glad in a way as it discourages the wrong kind of people from buying them for the sake of it or other nefarious reasons. In a perfect world, people licenced for pistols should know their handgun in and out and should be able to use it by second nature in a safe and responsible manner - something that requires practice at a range.

Totally agree that the use of a pistol to put down animals that need to be, I cannot in the life of me see vermin unless they are caught in a trap, or lying injured, then I agree.
I have trouble with "Provided the user is correctly versed in handling". As a RO I can assure you categorically that many pistol and rifle shooters after very many years fail. They barely make it through a course of fire without being disqualified, I can think of 2 examples in the past month. I have also seen some from other professions who's pistol handling abilities leave a great deal to be desired.
Actually in part I hold responsible many people who are asked to train, show, explain how and the correct way to shoot pistols, few are even half competent, but good pistol training officers at private ranges are difficult to find. Hence many pistol shooters still use a semi and hold it like it's a revolver, totally different grips required. No wonder many can't shoot. IT'S not about practice, it about good techniques and correct practice. Like driving, a bad driver is a bad driver, possibly because he or she have never been given correct driving tuition.

[ex_reven]

I have trouble with "Provided the user is correctly versed in handling". As a RO I can assure you categorically that many pistol and rifle shooters after very many years fail. They barely make it through a course of fire without being disqualified, I can think of 2 examples in the past month. I have also seen some from other professions who's pistol handling abilities leave a great deal to be desired.
Actually in part I hold responsible many people who are asked to train, show, explain how and the correct way to shoot pistols, few are even half competent, but good pistol training officers at private ranges are difficult to find. Hence many pistol shooters still use a semi and hold it like it's a revolver, totally different grips required. No wonder many can't shoot. IT'S not about practice, it about good techniques and correct practice. Like driving, a bad driver is a bad driver, possibly because he or she have never been given correct driving tuition.

Not going to argue there.
I've also experienced a mix of this:

Newbies who have been inadequately taught - generally with poor muzzle and trigger discipline - this is a failing of our clubs.
It is the responsibility of the club to hammer in safety and training to newbies - this is partially what pistol probationary periods exist for!
If you can't train someone to handle a firearm safely in 6 months then there is something fundamentally wrong with the trainer or their methodology.

Then there's the long time shooters who have become complacent, not as common, but they exist.

I had a shooter a few weeks back - just having come off their probation at his own club and purchased a brand new pistol. Needless to say he was excited to shoot it, but his first actions after unboxing it on the range were to admire it with the barrel pointing down the length of the firing line. I stepped in and gave him a rundown of range safety and how the principles are more or less universal to every range. I was a bit disappointed that a club had not taken more responsibility and provided (and tested) the shooters training throughout the course of his probation. Not to mention his shooting peers.

Safety is everyone's responsibility, and I'm happy that the guys I shoot and hunt with are not afraid to pull their peers up when any breach is made.

[cavok]

I have trouble with "Provided the user is correctly versed in handling". As a RO I can assure you categorically that many pistol and rifle shooters after very many years fail. They barely make it through a course of fire without being disqualified, I can think of 2 examples in the past month. I have also seen some from other professions who's pistol handling abilities leave a great deal to be desired.
Actually in part I hold responsible many people who are asked to train, show, explain how and the correct way to shoot pistols, few are even half competent, but good pistol training officers at private ranges are difficult to find. Hence many pistol shooters still use a semi and hold it like it's a revolver, totally different grips required. No wonder many can't shoot. IT'S not about practice, it about good techniques and correct practice. Like driving, a bad driver is a bad driver, possibly because he or she have never been given correct driving tuition.

Not going to argue there.
I've also experienced a mix of this:

Newbies who have been inadequately taught - generally with poor muzzle and trigger discipline - this is a failing of our clubs.
It is the responsibility of the club to hammer in safety and training to newbies - this is partially what pistol probationary periods exist for!
If you can't train someone to handle a firearm safely in 6 months then there is something fundamentally wrong with the trainer or their methodology.

Then there's the long time shooters who have become complacent, not as common, but they exist.

I had a shooter a few weeks back - just having come off their probation at his own club and purchased a brand new pistol. Needless to say he was excited to shoot it, but his first actions after unboxing it on the range were to admire it with the barrel pointing down the length of the firing line. I stepped in and gave him a rundown of range safety and how the principles are more or less universal to every range. I was a bit disappointed that a club had not taken more responsibility and provided (and tested) the shooters training throughout the course of his probation. Not to mention his shooting peers.

Safety is everyone's responsibility, and I'm happy that the guys I shoot and hunt with are not afraid to pull their peers up when any breach is made.

Excellent piece, well said. The last sentence is great, yes, safety is everyone's responsibility.

[vonfram88]

Sorry, pistols or revolvers are useless for humane destruction of animals unless you have 800J of energy available downrange and or muzzle is against the animals head. I can't think of a sensible handgun that would still be making 800J at 50 yds. Humane kill means instant death, not putting the poor creature down with a hole in its chest waiting to die.

[cavok]

Sorry, pistols or revolvers are useless for humane destruction of animals unless you have 800J of energy available downrange and or muzzle is against the animals head. I can't think of a sensible handgun that would still be making 800J at 50 yds. Humane kill means instant death, not putting the poor creature down with a hole in its chest waiting to die.

Guess you have never fired a Desert Eagle in .50 cal or S&W 500. That's just 2. As for humane destruction of animals 1 metre is great, little danger. Beats a .233 with 56grn projectile. If what you write is required, Humane kills means instant death, WHY do our governments allow Halal slaughtering of cattle and other animals, guess we need to wake the governments and Muslims up to the fact we will no longer allow halal killings.

[ex_reven]

Humane = as painless as is practically possible

Most rifle kills would be chest shots and I can tell you now that they are rarely an instant death.
The bottom line is minimising suffering, a pistol used at the correct distances (or as a follow up shot on an injured animal) is perfectly capable.

[vonfram88]

Sorry, pistols or revolvers are useless for humane destruction of animals unless you have 800J of energy available downrange and or muzzle is against the animals head. I can't think of a sensible handgun that would still be making 800J at 50 yds. Humane kill means instant death, not putting the poor creature down with a hole in its chest waiting to die.

Guess you have never fired a Desert Eagle in .50 cal or S&W 500. That's just 2. As for humane destruction of animals 1 metre is great, little danger. Beats a .233 with 56grn projectile. If what you write is required, Humane kills means instant death, WHY do our governments allow Halal slaughtering of cattle and other animals, guess we need to wake the governments and Muslims up to the fact we will no longer allow halal killings.

I have fired all of the DE in 357, 44 and 50AE. Still wouldn't use one for hunting or pest destruction even if we were allowed. Every now and then someone brings out their 357 DE for a prac pistol match. The damn thing is jam city, utter useless piece of crap. Never have fired the 500 SW that all keyboard warriors fantasize about shooting one handed x ring double taps. But I have seen a bunch of handgunners trying to hunt goats back in the early 1990s. It was pathetic and cruel.

I don't have a "233" but my 223 Remingtons make more muzzle energy than the published figures for the 50AE - I'm being a bit of a google expert now since I have never chrono'd a 50AE.

In WA a primary producer is allowed to carry a revolver during mustering for protection against charging cattle. It's not necessarily going to be an instant kill, but hopefully it will prevent the worker from being harmed or killed by stopping the threat.

How people of Abrahamic faiths slaughter animals for consumption has no relevance. When the main blood vessels in the neck are cleanly severed, the animal loses consciousness. There are plenty of failures in commercial non Halal and non Kosher slaughterhouses that lead to animal suffering. I notice you have singled out Muslims here, is there any reason for this?

[cavok]

From the above, ""I have fired all of the DE in 357, 44 and 50AE. Still wouldn't use one for hunting or pest destruction even if we were allowed. Every now and then someone brings out their 357 DE for a prac pistol match. The damn thing is jam city, utter useless piece of crap. Never have fired the 500 SW that all keyboard warriors fantasize about shooting one handed x ring double taps.""

The D/Eagle is extremely reliable, I'm sorry someone must have a crook model. I have never seen one jam, a few rounds tumble as it its the target, but that was his load error. In 9mm still a fantastic reliable and pistol. Anyone who has ever fired a S&W 500 and dreams of a double tap is in noddy land, one handed I have never seen it shot. Keyboard warriors dream of many things, but never fired an actual shot. My .223 is much as yours, just typing to fast.
As for singling out Muslims in my post, yes I did, there was a topic run on halal killing of cattle, muslims were mentioned, I know of no others that slaughter animals so inhumanely, the government should ban the practice, in all states. Guess it's politically correct to allow them rights that other abattoirs are not allowed. Let them all eat meat as we slaughter it or become vegans, should get some pork on their fork. Support or farmers.

[Westy]

I know of no others that slaughter animals so inhumanely, the government should ban the practice, in all states. Guess it's politically correct to allow them rights that other
Just Curious Cavok have you ever seen a Ahull head knock system??? Hate to be the one to tell you but it isn't at all Barbaric, in fact I think the cattle just might like it more than the standard practise Either way they just end up in boxes or in my Belly

[1290]

ForFS we as mankind have slaughtered our food the same way for what? 10s of thousands of years or more? I'm from a Christian European family and we always used the same method, yes, its not pretty to watch but suddenly the MUSLIMS are barbarians, maybe we are but we just forgot....

wgaf how the meat is converted from live to steak.

[Lorgar]

10 shoots per year, you drive your car daily, it's required just to maintain a very low level skill level.

My level or skill (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. I don't want to have to maintain anything, I would want to go for fun only, when I felt like it.

It would be nice to be able to do that with my own equipment when I felt like it is what I'm saying, just like I can with my rifles.

[Point223]

Dear Cavok

Kosher is identical to Halal just the jewish version... and all Animals are stunned in Australia whether they're Halal, Kosher, or none. THEY MUST BE STUNNED! so your argument on banning Halal is moot.

And there's no humane way to kill an animal... I've seen Borsak himself shooting a pig in the thigh and then running up to it and slitting it's throat with a pocket knife. Big fu#kin deal man the fu#k up you greenie soft hearted oh please don't kill animals inhumanely i'm a girly little boy whose feelings are going to be hurt!

[North East]

Westy - agree
1290 - agree
Lorgar - agree
Point223 - agree

Cavok - DISAGREE

I don't shoot pistols, no interest whatsoever get bored ****** at a range putting holes in paper with a pissy little caliber.

...and I don't give a damn where my meat comes from or how it was slaughtered, as long as it tastes good.

[cavok]

Dear Cavok

Kosher is identical to Halal just the jewish version... and all Animals are stunned in Australia whether they're Halal, Kosher, or none. THEY MUST BE STUNNED! so your argument on banning Halal is moot.

And there's no humane way to kill an animal... I've seen Borsak himself shooting a pig in the thigh and then running up to it and slitting it's throat with a pocket knife. Big fu#kin deal man the fu#k up you greenie soft hearted oh please don't kill animals inhumanely i'm a girly little boy whose feelings are going to be hurt!

Pity you can't get your facts right, guess you are still learning. Guess attacking the messenger is about right?

[cavok]

Dear Cavok

Kosher is identical to Halal just the jewish version... and all Animals are stunned in Australia whether they're Halal, Kosher, or none. THEY MUST BE STUNNED! so your argument on banning Halal is moot.

And there's no humane way to kill an animal... I've seen Borsak himself shooting a pig in the thigh and then running up to it and slitting it's throat with a pocket knife. Big fu#kin deal man the fu#k up you greenie soft hearted oh please don't kill animals inhumanely i'm a girly little boy whose feelings are going to be hurt!

Thought you might like to read this. An apology anytime would be good.

For cattle and sheep, the requirements for religious slaughter without prior stunning are set out in a nationally adopted guideline Ritual Slaughter for Ovine (Sheep) and Bovine (Cattle):

For cattle, stunning is still required but this occurs immediately after the throat is cut. Two separate slaughtermen must be present: one to perform the cut (which must sever both the carotid arteries and jugular veins) and one to perform the stunning.
For sheep, stunning is not required except where the animal is distressed or does not rapidly lose consciousness, in which case they must be immediately stunned.
The requirements for cattle and sheep are different because cattle take longer than sheep to lose consciousness as they have an extra blood supply to the brain at the back of the neck running along the vertebrae.

The RSPCA is concerned there are much greater risks of an animal suffering during slaughter without stunning than for conventional slaughter. Slaughtering an animal while fully conscious requires additional handling and restraint and means that the animal will experience pain associated with the throat cut and subsequent bleeding out. For these reasons, the RSPCA is strongly opposed to all forms of slaughter that do not involve prior stunning of the animal.

[tom604]

put a link up cavok, is that for Australia ?

[ex_reven]

put a link up cavok, is that for Australia ?

Looks like it originated here:
http://kb.rspca.org.au/what-is-halal-sl ... a_116.html

[1290]

I could care less how the beast that are bred for our FOOD are slaughtered, as long as hygiene is maintained

What I do care about is the hypocrisy; we are ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES allowed to kill the animals without stunning......

buuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we could make some exceptions....

Similar to the Victorian law that we ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES allowed to carry a knife.....

buuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we could make some exceptions....like for Sikhs.. Nothing against Sikhs, but the one rule for some, different for others because they are a minority or to be politically correct... is plain wrong. If a Sikh is permitted to carry a 1 metre long knife! why cant I carry a 3inch folding knife to cut my fruit????

[Point223]

Cavok Didnt you post earlier stating: "I know of no others that slaughter animals so inhumanely"

Ever heard of Kosher??

And that article you googled to back your point works against you..

"For cattle, stunning is still required but this occurs immediately after the throat is cut. Two separate slaughtermen must be present: one to perform the cut (which must sever both the carotid arteries and jugular veins) and one to perform the stunning.
For sheep, stunning is not required except where the animal is distressed or does not rapidly lose consciousness, in which case they must be immediately stunned.
The requirements for cattle and sheep are different because cattle take longer than sheep to lose consciousness as they have an extra blood supply to the brain at the back of the neck running along the vertebrae.

All Halal slaughter of chickens in Australia includes prior stunning."

Cattle is stunned... As the throat gets cut
Chicken gets stunned
Sheep gets stunned if distressed.

And these aren't all halal slaughterhouses by the way, these are the few halal slaughterhouses that are exempt and not all of them are the same.

[ex_reven]

I feel this thread has gone waaaay off topic now lol

[cavok]

Totally agree, I'm out. Must be a reason why it went that far, lucky it's a new year. Think I might avoid some areas, to many land mines.

[anthillinside]

Totally agree, I'm out. Must be a reason why it went that far, lucky it's a new year. Think I might avoid some areas, to many land mines.

Yeah but some has to clear them.
Keep it up, I admire your tenacity.

[brett1868]

I'm having a case of deja vu here....didn't some other thread deal with all the killing of food stuff? I think the mods cleaned that one up and this is heading in a similar direction.

The big questions on this Martin Place deal are:-
1. Why have no hostages come forward to cash in on their experience?
2. Why did it take 90 shots to take down the gunman?
3. When will the full report be made public?

[Westy]

Hey Brett do you think the State police have put a gag order on what happened??? LOL!!!! I reckon something went cluster f*** in that show down myself!!!!Didn't you have people on the inside at the Lindt Café ???? Well it was always going to end bad as it IMHO dragged on for way to long !!! Sadly the innocent are always the victims in Terrorist attacks.... this includes the police and others involved, dropping the hammer on any human life isn't a easy thing to do but if the 90 shots number is true then that's about 89 to many In my book!!!!! the only other question I have is what the f*** are we feeding and training police dogs for then

[1290]

......well, very quickly a shot gun pellet was blamed for one of the death.... thennnnnnn they werent so sure. coullllllld have been a BULLET, say a 224 diameter bullet!!!

oh... very quiet now

[anthillinside]

The big questions on this Martin Place deal are:-
1. Why have no hostages come forward to cash in on their experience?
Mayne because all the media personalities are on holiday
More likley is they and te media havebeen told to keep their mouths shut untill after #3
2. Why did it take 90 shots to take down the gunman?
You know you've got to empty your mag before a cease fire
3. When will the full report be made public?
When they have come up with some "recomendations" that the govt. spin to their own advantage and/or point the finger away from all the failings raised here

On a ore serious note, I can't remember the Media dropping such a dramatic event so fast.
I really do wonder why.

[brett1868]

Hey Brett do you think the State police have put a gag order on what happened??? LOL!!!! I reckon something went cluster f*** in that show down myself!!!!Didn't you have people on the inside at the Lindt Café ???? Well it was always going to end bad as it IMHO dragged on for way to long !!! Sadly the innocent are always the victims in Terrorist attacks.... this includes the police and others involved, dropping the hammer on any human life isn't a easy thing to do but if the 90 shots number is true then that's about 89 to many In my book!!!!! the only other question I have is what the f*** are we feeding and training police dogs for then

Our 4 guys haven't returned to work as yet and I'm not sure if they'll return anytime soon. I suspect that the police have slapped a gag order on the hostages to prevent them going public for fear of being charged with obstruction and forfeiture of any money paid for their story. Watch that 90 number, I think you'll find it's fairly accurate and justifying it will take some serious spin. Sending the dog in wasn't an option as in the confusion there was no guarantee it would attack the correct person and it would have ruled out the use of flash bangs. The media are regulated by government regulations and I suspect are under orders to go silent on the matter. I suspect we'll be drip fed fragments of truth in such a way so as not to enrage the general public into wanting the governments head on a plate.

[cavok]

Not sure I want to say anything more, the topic of what etc should be left alone, for reasons stated above.

[Westy]

Hey Brett do you think the State police have put a gag order on what happened??? LOL!!!! I reckon something went cluster f*** in that show down myself!!!!Didn't you have people on the inside at the Lindt Café ???? Well it was always going to end bad as it IMHO dragged on for way to long !!! Sadly the innocent are always the victims in Terrorist attacks.... this includes the police and others involved, dropping the hammer on any human life isn't a easy thing to do but if the 90 shots number is true then that's about 89 to many In my book!!!!! the only other question I have is what the f*** are we feeding and training police dogs for then

Our 4 guys haven't returned to work as yet and I'm not sure if they'll return anytime soon. I suspect that the police have slapped a gag order on the hostages to prevent them going public for fear of being charged with obstruction and forfeiture of any money paid for their story. Watch that 90 number, I think you'll find it's fairly accurate and justifying it will take some serious spin. Sending the dog in wasn't an option as in the confusion there was no guarantee it would attack the correct person and it would have ruled out the use of flash bangs. The media are regulated by government regulations and I suspect are under orders to go silent on the matter. I suspect we'll be drip fed fragments of truth in such a way so as not to enrage the general public into wanting the governments head on a plate.

Personally I'd rather be bitten by a Copper than shot by one!!! Flash Bang is as good as useless in most instances maybe they had some with best before dates on them????? Hope your collages are all doing well although it would have been very traumatic for them and I hope they recover soon from this shameful ordeal. !!!! as for the cops wouldn't like to put my hand up foir that gig on that day, dammed if you do-- dammed if you didn't. Poor Bastards