What if law changed

[cavok]

What if the law changed ?

There have been several posts recently of members of this forum advocating that firearms be made legal for self defence. I’m actually in favour of it, however just a minute, what would be the immediate consequences of such changes to our/the situation.

So lets assume it’s now legal to purchase a handgun or other for self protection. As we already have over 2.5 million rifles registered to shooters here I assume everyone will want a pistol/handgun, fits into pocket or purse.

Possibly the first consequence of any legislative change would be.

1. Police swamped with simple background checks, police overworked, overtime budget blown away, more police required or other non police trained staff.
2. Shop inundated with requests, price double/triple as people scramble for items they have no idea how to handle. To many calibres available, to few shop outlets.
3. Not enough training facilities as some basic training in use of handguns mandatory.
4. Not sufficient ammunition available in correct calibre.
5. Training facilities can’t cope, unscrupulous operators cash in on demand, poor training provided.
6. People buy firearm and go home, practice, the first accidental discharge into TV, neighbours complain about hearing gun shots.
7. A very few firearms used in domestic violence, Anti Gun advocates gain momentum and want to ban all guns.
8. A very few guns used in holdups and other incidents, government approached by Anti Gun lobby.
9. A few incidents involving young children finding parents firearms not secured, child injured in accident, more Anti Gun lobbyists approach state governments. States impose stricter ownership conditions.
10. Not enough firearm ranges to cater for mass training programs now instituted.
11. A few incidents of people not thinking and using firearms inappropriately in situations of road rage or domestic disturbance, to many accidental discharges.
12. Anti Gun lobby and concerned citizens inundate parliamentary members with petitions and want law changed.

I will stop there, I have trained many new comers in handguns usage, holster qualifications, it is not a pretty site, there are some real nut cases out there, some real Rambo twits and then some.
I think someone once wrote, “be careful what you wish for, it may come true.”

[Westy]

Who the f*** wants an old pistol for this reason, just bring back the street sweeper (12 gauge) with the drum but make sure it works this time!!!!!It's never going to happen legally and so alas it will always be nothing more than a Dream!!!!! To think the government wants to protect you, yerrr right just ask the people inside the lindt café in Sydney a few weeks ago?????

12 Gauge = personal defence 101!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLDImQLRVQ

Now this is top of Westy;s wish list

[anthillinside]

OK I might be about to be crucified.
Our gun laws aren’t too bad … (duck under table and peer out between chair legs)
Well the license and registration part anyway.
You don't complain about having to have a drivers license and register your car (well maybe about the price )
A lot will disagree about registration quoting potential of confiscation, yes maybe.
But we all say let the cops crack down crims with illegal firearms.
No registration system makes it almost impossible, only “prohibited” firearms become “illegal”, semi-autos etc.
Now it’s this prohibited list that I want changed.
So if I’m licensed and the gun is registered, let me be.
If I’m a crim I’m not likely to have a license or have a firearm registered.
Even if it’s a .22 throw the book at me and lock me up for a LOOONG time.
A drug dealer gets away with heaps because it’s hard to get concrete evidence of “dealing” but if his got a gun then that’s SOLID evidence.
Perhaps if we, the police and the public get comfortable with registration and can prove that it WORKS, then we might have a real argument to get some of the restricted arms off the list.

Now it's your turn

[trekin]

What if the law changed ?

There have been several posts recently of members of this forum advocating that firearms be made legal for self defence. I’m actually in favour of it, however just a minute, what would be the immediate consequences of such changes to our/the situation.

So lets assume it’s now legal to purchase a handgun or other for self protection. As we already have over 2.5 million rifles registered to shooters here I assume everyone will want a pistol/handgun, fits into pocket or purse.

Possibly the first consequence of any legislative change would be.

1. Police swamped with simple background checks, police overworked, overtime budget blown away, more police required or other non police trained staff.
2. Shop inundated with requests, price double/triple as people scramble for items they have no idea how to handle. To many calibres available, to few shop outlets.
3. Not enough training facilities as some basic training in use of handguns mandatory.
4. Not sufficient ammunition available in correct calibre.
5. Training facilities can’t cope, unscrupulous operators cash in on demand, poor training provided.
6. People buy firearm and go home, practice, the first accidental discharge into TV, neighbours complain about hearing gun shots.
7. A very few firearms used in domestic violence, Anti Gun advocates gain momentum and want to ban all guns.
8. A very few guns used in holdups and other incidents, government approached by Anti Gun lobby.
9. A few incidents involving young children finding parents firearms not secured, child injured in accident, more Anti Gun lobbyists approach state governments. States impose stricter ownership conditions.
10. Not enough firearm ranges to cater for mass training programs now instituted.
11. A few incidents of people not thinking and using firearms inappropriately in situations of road rage or domestic disturbance, to many accidental discharges.
12. Anti Gun lobby and concerned citizens inundate parliamentary members with petitions and want law changed.

I will stop there, I have trained many new comers in handguns usage, holster qualifications, it is not a pretty site, there are some real nut cases out there, some real Rambo twits and then some.
I think someone once wrote, “be careful what you wish for, it may come true.”

Yeah.. so 23,693,686
This projection is based on the estimated resident population at 30 June 2014 and assumes growth since then of:
one birth every 1 minute and 45 seconds,
one death every 3 minutes and 32 seconds ,
a net gain of one international migration every 2 minutes and 05 seconds, leading to an overall total population increase of one person every 1 minute and 18 seconds.
These assumptions are consistent with figures released in Australian Demographic Statistics, June Quarter 2014 (cat. no. 3101.0). people are going to run out and get a licence and register a fireman for self defence the day that the law is passed. Now back in the real world......
If you were really all for carry for self defence, then instead of throwing all these negatives around man, you'd be working out work-around's for these problems for when the antis throw them up to block any such laws being made.

Edited to fix mistake pointed out by cavok

[cavok]

Actually drug dealers and unlicensed firearm user in all manner of illegal situations are arrested by hard working, dedicated police officers. To me the system falls down, and that's really not true either, as the Judge hears the evidence presented to him/her, and hands down a sentence. Simple, not too complex, it's just to some the sentence in many cases appears to those how have not been interested in looking at all the evidence cannot comprehend.

Many a family who have lost a child, been maimed by a drunk driver or have seen their child on drugs because of some criminals activities want harsh sentences, however these are usually reserved for murder. Yet families cry in anguish and what they perceive as lenient sentences.

So for 1st degree premeditated murder the sentence is 25 years. What does a judge give a drunk driver on drugs who ploughs through a red light at an intersection killing thee innocent people? I from memory recall him getting 9 years.

I also don't think our gun laws are to bad at the moment, not sure they will ever change so I can have my semi auto rifle back, but now we have all manner of handguns we can legally use, even .45 is legal again for our matches, well in Victoria at least.

[cavok]

Yeah.. so 30 million people are going to run out and get a licence and register a fireman for self defence the day that the law is passed. Now back in the real world......
If you were really all for carry for self defence, then instead of throwing all these negatives around man, you'd be working out work-around's for these problems for when the antis throw them up to block any such laws being made.

Sorry we do not have a population of 30 million, more like 23 million. Have you been keeping track of how many shooters on various forums would be first in line, rifle shooters, and then some. THE system cannot cope. I throw nothing negative around, you need to read what I wrote, and please in my 12 points, name what one you cannot see as being correct? All I did was make some observations based on people I have seen and tried to teach how to use a pistol.
Multiply that by several 100 out of 23 million and you get a great number.

[trekin]

Who the f*** wants an old pistol for this reason, just bring back the street sweeper (12 gauge) with the drum but make sure it works this time!!!!!It's never going to happen legally and so alas it will always be nothing more than a Dream!!!!! To think the government wants to protect you, yerrr right just ask the people inside the lindt café in Sydney a few weeks ago?????

12 Gauge = personal defence 101!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLDImQLRVQ

Now this is top of Westy;s wish list

Shotties good, but just being allowed other non-lethal means such as CS, or even one of those personnel alarms thingies (yes even they are illegal here in QLD when used defensibly), and getting the QLD Criminal Code changed so that if you use self defence as a defence YOU, the victim, no longer have to prove your innocence, and make it so the Prosecution have to prove your guilt. Getting the test of innocence changed from "what a reasonable person would do in a similar situation" to "what you, the victim, would do in that exact situation" would also be a step in the right direction too I believe.

[cavok]

Must have funny laws in Queensland. In all other states I am able to use a rifle, pistol, knife, brick, hammer, or anything else to defend myself against an aggressor as long as my actions are reasonable and proportionate, you might even find this applies in your state.
462a "A person may use such force not disproportionate to the objective as he believes on reasonable grounds to be necessary to prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence or to effect or assist in effecting the lawful arrest of a person committing or suspected of committing any offence."

[tom604]

i don't believe you are in favor cavok, your post was in fact negative and full of assumptions and ill give you a few

1,,, not all will want a pistol to fit their purse/pocket

2,,,the police will take their own sweet time so no overtime/swamping/ect

3,4,5,10,,supply and demand and you would have to think the cops would have checks on ranges,,price may go up but large demand= competition

6,7,8,9,,should be the same amount that happens with rifles now?

11,,can't stop crazy, again should be about the same that happens now

12,, they were always were going to anyway

to assume = to make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" but only if i believe you

[trekin]

Must have funny laws in Queensland. In all other states I am able to use a rifle, pistol, knife, brick, hammer, or anything else to defend myself against an aggressor as long as my actions are reasonable and proportionate, you might even find this applies in your state.
462a "A person may use such force not disproportionate to the objective as he believes on reasonable grounds to be necessary to prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence or to effect or assist in effecting the lawful arrest of a person committing or suspected of committing any offence."

Suggest you get a hold of the QLD Criminal Code and have a good read to see what the procedure is if you are charged with murder, manslaughter or GBH and using self defence as a defence, a little hint, it's the same as being charged with murder, manslaughter or GBH when you can't use self defence as a defence,
Also suggest you get a hold of the QLD Weapons Act and have a good read, it's called the Weapons Act for a reason.

[trekin]

i don't believe you are in favor cavok, your post was in fact negative and full of assumptions and ill give you a few

1,,, not all will want a pistol to fit their purse/pocket

2,,,the police will take their own sweet time so no overtime/swamping/ect

3,4,5,10,,supply and demand and you would have to think the cops would have checks on ranges,,price may go up but large demand= competition

6,7,8,9,,should be the same amount that happens with rifles now?

11,,can't stop crazy, again should be about the same that happens now

12,, they were always were going to anyway

to assume = to make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" but only if i believe you

And using made up BS statistical figures to strengthen your argument, a tactic best left to the Greens/CGA who use it all the time.

[cavok]

i don't believe you are in favor cavok, your post was in fact negative and full of assumptions and ill give you a few

1,,, not all will want a pistol to fit their purse/pocket

2,,,the police will take their own sweet time so no overtime/swamping/ect

3,4,5,10,,supply and demand and you would have to think the cops would have checks on ranges,,price may go up but large demand= competition

6,7,8,9,,should be the same amount that happens with rifles now?

11,,can't stop crazy, again should be about the same that happens now

12,, they were always were going to anyway

to assume = to make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" but only if i believe you

Sorry, you are making the same assumptions I used, neither of us know what may or may not occur, so lets not make mileage at each others expense. I have never been called negative, but with a population of 23 million, say 15 million persons, assumption of 9 million eligible, and 5 % wishing to buy a pistol. That's a figure around 450,000 individuals. All the best with your quest.

[cavok]

Must have funny laws in Queensland. In all other states I am able to use a rifle, pistol, knife, brick, hammer, or anything else to defend myself against an aggressor as long as my actions are reasonable and proportionate, you might even find this applies in your state.
462a "A person may use such force not disproportionate to the objective as he believes on reasonable grounds to be necessary to prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence or to effect or assist in effecting the lawful arrest of a person committing or suspected of committing any offence."

Suggest you get a hold of the QLD Criminal Code and have a good read to see what the procedure is if you are charged with murder, manslaughter or GBH and using self defence as a defence, a little hint, it's the same as being charged with murder, manslaughter or GBH when you can't use self defence as a defence,
Also suggest you get a hold of the QLD Weapons Act and have a good read, it's called the Weapons Act for a reason.

Think you need to understand if I am attacked say by a person who has a knife in their hands, they are attacking me, I pick up a rock and strike them as they are attempting to stab me. Sorry I cannot be charged with murder, manslaughter or anything else, I was defending myself. If charged no court would convict me, so you go back to your drawing board and check it out. So if a police officer is attacked in Queensland they are unable to defend themselves, I think not. A person has a right to defend themselves and their loved ones, courts will uphold that right, reasonable and proportionate response. A person comes at me with a weapon, they pass into the next world, why would police even charge me, I have not committed a crime, check it out. Remember police are just members of the public, same as you and I, the crimes act allows you that right.

[North East]

Why don't you blokes just go hunting...that's what shooting is all about.

[anthillinside]

Why don't you blokes just go hunting...that's what shooting is all about.

Yeah...
But sometimes it's fun to Stir the possum and/or Shoot the messenger

[Westy]

Shotties good, but just being allowed other non-lethal means such as CS, or even one of those personnel alarms thingies (yes even they are illegal here in QLD when used defensibly), and getting the QLD Criminal Code changed so that if you use self defence as a defence YOU, the victim, no longer have to prove your innocence, and make it so the Prosecution have to prove your guilt. Getting the test of innocence changed from "what a reasonable person would do in a similar situation" to "what you, the victim, would do in that exact situation" would also be a step in the right direction too I believe.

I still like the Shotty idea myself ,

[cavok]

Why don't you blokes just go hunting...that's what shooting is all about.

I sorry, I was under the delusion that forums was an exchange of ideas and opinions. You want all to not have any differing opinions on any subject, just so I understand you. One party was making an assertion, the other party did not agree and tried to explain. You have issue with that?
So as I understand you are always correct in your assumptions, your thoughts and any who do not agree with you are wrong and cannot be heard. Thanks, but no thanks.

[cavok]

Why don't you blokes just go hunting...that's what shooting is all about.

Yeah...
But sometimes it's fun to Stir the possum and/or Shoot the messenger

Yea, shoot the messenger, what they originally wrote looks like crap, stir them good, gets a response every time, great forum.

[tom604]

barrel has to be cut down a bit on that shotty

cavok,twice on this thread you have been called negative don't sweat it just pulling your chain

[Westy]

barrel has to be cut down a bit on that shotty

cavok,twice on this thread you have been called negative don't sweat it just pulling your chain

Yep me Too I also want a 40 watt plasma rifle but well you know!!!! Here I am pulling your Chain girl!!!!!

http://youtu.be/Nzf9bf0TtPQ or try this one it's a real chain pull!!!

http://youtu.be/M5VRTOiIBx0

[North East]

Why don't you blokes just go hunting...that's what shooting is all about.

I sorry, I was under the delusion that forums was an exchange of ideas and opinions. You want all to not have any differing opinions on any subject, just so I understand you. One party was making an assertion, the other party did not agree and tried to explain. You have issue with that?
So as I understand you are always correct in your assumptions, your thoughts and any who do not agree with you are wrong and cannot be heard. Thanks, but no thanks.

It's a shooting and hunting forum...usually revolves around killing animals.

I don't give a damn about your political ideas, not interested in hearing them, I don't give a stuff about any political parties or policies.

I just hunt.

[cavok]

Hunting is not about killing animals, its about hunting, you don't actually need to kill anything, take a photo it's much the same. Secondly if you look at the various categories of this site you may find it is much more than just about hunting. Many feel as you do, stuff politics, but in the end we are required to cast a vote, so it does affect you. All the best in your hunting and killing endeavours. So a Marxist or socialist policy will not concern you, you live in isolation, "far from the madding crowd." be well and may your hunts always be successful.

[tom604]

Westy,,,, you need help i was WTF went hunting last night will put a post up soon,,,r.i.p moby while its true that you can go hunting and not kill anything doing it on purpose means you went for a walk

[North East]

Hunting is not about killing animals, its about hunting, you don't actually need to kill anything, take a photo it's much the same. Secondly if you look at the various categories of this site you may find it is much more than just about hunting. Many feel as you do, stuff politics, but in the end we are required to cast a vote, so it does affect you. All the best in your hunting and killing endeavours. So a Marxist or socialist policy will not concern you, you live in isolation, "far from the madding crowd." be well and may your hunts always be successful.

All you do is crap on about political s**t and try and put other members down boasting about some political prowess. Do you ever get out hunting?...I think not.

[cavok]

All you do is crap on about political s**t and try and put other members down boasting about some political prowess. Do you ever get out hunting?...I think not.

In answer to your question, what I do and when I do it is none of your concern. I don't crap on about politics, read some of what I post, I never put anyone one down, not my style, again read what I post. Prowess is a good word for someone who claims no political allegiance, leave it be. Yes I do and have hunted for many years, but then who cares.

[North East]

You are in fantasy land.

[on_one_wheel]

Vegetarian .... A hunter who goes hunting and comes home empty handed.

I dont think our country, it's people or our systems are even close to being ready for c & c, imo we would see a rise in road rages ending in a shooting because the people who want guns for self defence are more likley to shoot another person than a hunter who knows the consequences and what the dammage looks like.

I believe that the only way it could work is if there was a wildcat round developed for custom self defence pistol that was sold to someone who held a self defense license and the ammo for it was sold at a police station only, training at a police range only, therefore controlling who, where, why and how people were using them.

All that said ...I doubt it would make Australia a safer place having c & c

[Westy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ONE you said a mouthful the best bit was "imo we would see a rise in road rages ending in a shooting because the people who want guns for self defence are more likely to shoot another person than a hunter who knows the consequences and what the damage looks like."

I think if people were made to shoot say a pig ,deer or the like and see what the carnage a Gun shot wound causes they maybe less likely to want to use it on a human being, then on the other hand some people are just plan Assholes and might get a rise from it???? I have lived all around the world including the U.S for work and Aussies by nature are some of the most Violent people I've had the privilege to meet and I'm a 6th Generation Australian!!!!!

[roob]

Our gun laws aren’t too bad … (duck under table and peer out between chair legs)

Get him!

[VICHunter]

Why don't you blokes just go hunting...that's what shooting is all about.

I like it.