Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

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Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Seconds » 10 Mar 2015, 10:54 am

Spot the recreational drug users :lol:

From a petition 'ditch the dogs' on the site unharm.

Dear NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione,

Please use your powers as NSW Police Commissioner to end police use of drug detection dogs in public places. Drug dog operations have little or no deterrent effect and they increase the risk of drug overdose. They generate antagonism and distrust between members of the public and police. The searches conducted during these operations are intrusive and they usually find no drugs. No-one wins from this program. It's time to end it now.


Dogs cause drug over doses? :lol:

Someone's getting paranoid, I wonder why... :lol:
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Jack V » 10 Mar 2015, 1:03 pm

I don't get the overdose thing unless they are swallowing their stash which would be dangerous .

Well I do agree that in some circumstances the use of dogs can infringe peoples rights. Like in the situation that they find drugs on someone but then start putting the dog over other people that are in no way associated with the crime and the Police have no reasonable cause to suspect that they do have any association . So that is in fact an illegal search . Dogs at airports is different , you agree to customs security and inspection by entering the airport building .

I think Police have to be more accountable for how and when they use dogs and be less storm trooper mentality but dogs are a necessary tool to combat illegal drugs .

There are people in society that have a real fear of dogs especially Police type dogs , people who have been attacked by a dog as children etc. Police have to be more mindful of this kind of thing in the way they let the dog approach people who may be totally innocent of any wrong doing and very scared .

I have had some experience in this area and the training systems employed are not vey good . They forget that the handler needs to be smarter than the dog .
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by trekin » 10 Mar 2015, 1:25 pm

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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Jack V » 10 Mar 2015, 5:37 pm

They object to drug dogs because most of them are druggies .
Look at the leaders face .
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Antie » 10 Mar 2015, 9:04 pm

The "logic" (and I use that word very loosely) is that people see a dog and swallow their stash resulting in an overdose, as Jack said.

Idiotic argument frankly.

Agree with it or not drugs are illegal and they know it. Swallowing them is to avoid getting in trouble for something they new they weren't allowed to go.

The dog's got nothing to do with it.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Davies » 10 Mar 2015, 9:05 pm

Antie wrote:The "logic" (and I use that word very loosely) is that people see a dog and swallow their stash resulting in an overdose, as Jack said.


In this context I think you use that word wrongly :lol:
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by VICHunter » 10 Mar 2015, 9:11 pm

Jack V wrote:I think Police have to be more accountable for how and when they use dogs and be less storm trooper mentality but dogs are a necessary tool to combat illegal drugs .

There are people in society that have a real fear of dogs especially Police type dogs , people who have been attacked by a dog as children etc. Police have to be more mindful of this kind of thing in the way they let the dog approach people who may be totally innocent of any wrong doing and very scared.


You say "police type dogs", the implication being breeds like German Shepherd, Doberman etc.

I've done my share of travelling and had the dogs come through many times. Only ever seen Beagles, Cocker Spaniels, a few Labs. Not liking dogs is one thing but none of them are breeds or sizes that any rational person could be afraid of.

Do they ever use more intimidating breeds here in Australia? I've never seen one 30 years.

Genuine question.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Octane » 11 Mar 2015, 8:40 am

Personally only seen the smaller/friendly guys in air ports.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Wil » 11 Mar 2015, 9:47 am

Hi all, full disclosure - I'm from Unharm. I'm curious about why you would support this program. It's never caught a major drug dealer and it hasn't had any substantial deterrent effect on drug use. Most searches don't find drugs. When they do, it's usually a small quantity of cannabis. Every dog and handler has a minimum of eight police accompanying them so it's expensive to run. You want to keep spending your tax dollars on this?
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Zilla » 11 Mar 2015, 1:15 pm

Attack of the killer Beagles!!!!! :lol:
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Seconds » 11 Mar 2015, 1:43 pm

Wil wrote:Hi all, full disclosure - I'm from Unharm. I'm curious about why you would support this program. It's never caught a major drug dealer and it hasn't had any substantial deterrent effect on drug use. Most searches don't find drugs. When they do, it's usually a small quantity of cannabis. Every dog and handler has a minimum of eight police accompanying them so it's expensive to run. You want to keep spending your tax dollars on this?


Hi Wil,

I'm not a avid supporter as such, but I disagree with the assertions of the petition and of some of your response.

As I highlighted, the point that particular earned my ire was that the dogs "increase the risk of drug overdose". As Antie said, this is a ridiculous assertion.

To have overdosed the person first needed to have obtained drugs they knew to be illegal.

If an over dose is possible then they have obtained and be carrying a quantity greater than required for personal use.

They then take their stash to avoid the ramifications of breaking the law.

These things were done, know and foreseeable before the dog was on site. They have no one to blame but themselves and to point the finger at the dogs is ridiculous.


"They generate antagonism and distrust between members of the public and police."

If I'm in an airport, train, wherever and an officer approaches with a dog wanting to sniff my bag they're more than welcome too. I know they will find nothing and the search will be concluded in 10 seconds. There is no reason to be antagonist or distrustful unless you have something to hide.


You say "Most searches don't find drugs. When they do, it's usually a small quantity of cannabis."

Quantity is not the issue. By that logic a small amount of stealing is ok. A small amount of wreckless driving. A little bit of verbal abuse.

I don't know what you're familiarity with firearms is but we're legally required to store them securely (which makes sense of course). I'm sure you wouldn't argue that if I had 10 firearms I should only have to secure most of them, that it's ok to have a 'small quantity' unsecured. Of course you wouldn't.


If I can ask a personal question of you - feel free not to answer but have a think about it - what's your opinion on recreational drugs? Is the core of your support for this because you believe a range of currently illegal recreational drugs should be legally available to you? Or are you completely against drugs and against the sniffer dogs solely and 100% for the reasons of privacy only. I have to say I don't think anyone will be able to convince me they're of the later.

If people, yourself included if applicable, believe marijuana or any other drug should be either decriminalised or legalised they're welcome to their opinion and there is no harm in having a discussion about it. I'm not a recreational drug user but personally I don't believe simply criminalising everything is a solution to these things, I think the countries that treat drug use as a public health issue and not a crime are doing it better. If people have reasonable assertions and evidence to support such changes on the topic they should voice them and good luck to them in their cause. My post is nothing against Unharm, if that's the groups goal then good luck to them.

That's not what this petition is though. In this particular petition the arguments made don't hold water as explained above and read like people not wanting to get caught, not concerned citizens fighting for privacy.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by trekin » 11 Mar 2015, 1:53 pm

Wil wrote:Hi all, full disclosure - I'm from Unharm. I'm curious about why you would support this program. It's never caught a major drug dealer and it hasn't had any substantial deterrent effect on drug use. Most searches don't find drugs. When they do, it's usually a small quantity of cannabis. Every dog and handler has a minimum of eight police accompanying them so it's expensive to run. You want to keep spending your tax dollars on this?


Mate, you have got my respect, only because of the size of your balls, for joining and posting on a forum such as this one. Don't know you from a bar of soap, so if you are anti gun, then change a few words in your post to read;

"I'm curious about why you would support this program. It's never caught a major illegal firearms trafficker and it hasn't had any substantial deterrent effect on illegal firearm use. Very few inspections find unregistered firearms or other prohibited items. When they do, it's usually a small quantity of ammo accidentally left out on the reloading bench."

Mate, the big difference here is, (see post No3) that drug use and procession is illegal, and what we do is legal and above board, yet we are treated, prosecuted and vilified worse than any dope head
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Jack V » 14 Mar 2015, 8:28 am

VICHunter wrote:You say "police type dogs", the implication being breeds like German Shepherd, Doberman etc.

I've done my share of travelling and had the dogs come through many times. Only ever seen Beagles, Cocker Spaniels, a few Labs. Not liking dogs is one thing but none of them are breeds or sizes that any rational person could be afraid of.

Do they ever use more intimidating breeds here in Australia? I've never seen one 30 years.

Genuine question.


Generally Yes , the customs drug type dogs are usually less threatening than the Police type dogs . You can't rationalise a phobia or entrenched fear .
Some people are very afraid of insects or spiders or even mice and rats . If a person has been attacked as a child by a dog then they can be afraid of all dogs even a little Chihuahua . There is not rational in it. I have watched peoples reaction to drug dogs and you can see the occasional person that is showing real fear . A good handler should try to soften the approach when someone is obviously afraid but unfortunately they tend to have a production line approach and no consideration for the individual or the fact that 99% of the people will be law abiding citizens . They all get treated like drug smugglers which is wrong . People should be asked if it's ok for a dog search and if they refuse they can be given a physical search instead but that takes time and money and peoples comfort and rights come second place to money .
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by VICHunter » 14 Mar 2015, 9:03 am

You can't rationalise a phobia or entrenched fear


True enough. But you can't be expected to, and shouldn't go to unreasonable lengths to cater for peoples phobias either. IMO.

Objectively a beagle sniffing your bag is no threat in any way.

2c.

Anyway... What can you do.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Arth » 25 Aug 2015, 9:26 am

VICHunter wrote:But you can't be expected to, and shouldn't go to unreasonable lengths to cater for peoples phobias either. IMO.


Our politicians and law makers obviously feel differently... :thumbsdown:
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by pajamatime » 25 Aug 2015, 1:54 pm

I don't even know why we are still talking about it! The dog is too cute to hate on, end of story! That is enough logic to end the argument for me and 99.9% of all women.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by adam » 25 Aug 2015, 2:49 pm

Wil wrote:Hi all, full disclosure - I'm from Unharm. I'm curious about why you would support this program.


Hi Wil,

Kudo's for coming on here and admitting that.

For me personally - I have a real problem when people don't take responsibility for their own actions, and the blame is put on another. (In this case the dogs).

I'm all for supporting and rehabilitating criminals if they want to support and help themselves - but prevention of crimes, and supporting victims comes first. People need to take responsibility for their own actions - and your policy does the opposite and put's the responsibility of the drug users actions on someone else.

Using the same "logic" it could be said that we shouldn't investigate and arrest people for pedophile crimes or put them in jail anymore because this has in some cases lead to their suicide. (Note: I'm not saying that drug users are the same as pedophiles. I'm just using the same logic of argument that you've used, on a worse crime to indicate it's flaw).

Stopping people from using drugs isn't just about enforcing a law. It's also about protecting people. Illegal drug use is not a victimless crime. Innocent 3rd party victims that have been hurt, abused, robbed, bashed and even killed by drug affected people directly or by driving, etc.

That's my first thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Baronvonrort » 25 Aug 2015, 6:50 pm

trekin wrote:Image


The son of Green senator Lee Rhiannon is a convicted dope dealer, if you try google for Lee Rhiannon sniffer dogs you might find the green senator who wanted drug sniffer dogs banned years before her son was busted for dealing yet she has no problem with gun sniffer dogs.

www.smh.com.au/nsw/greens-son-jailed--f ... 1542h.html
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Title_II » 26 Aug 2015, 11:18 pm

I believe it.


Exhibit A:










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Zoinks!
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Re: Dogs responsible for drug overdoses now

Post by Herdsman » 27 Aug 2015, 2:09 pm

pajamatime wrote:I don't even know why we are still talking about it! The dog is too cute to hate on, end of story!


:thumbsup:

Anyone who's worried about a beagle giving them a sniff has something wrong with them :lol:
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