"Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

"Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Mich » 22 Jun 2015, 9:27 am

Hi Ozzies,

This is an article being argued about in the here between some shooting buddies of mine and some non-shooting friends who are leaning towards the anti-gun side if I'm honest.

The pro position is there aren't a large number of self-defence related shootings because the deterrent of carrying alone does the defence for you.

I know you don't have CC there, how do the numbers of crimes there compare to this? Looking for some examples from similar countries without CC to throw in a friends face :lol:

Guns rarely used for self-defense in US

Washington (AFP) - Contrary to what the gun lobby argues, personal firearms in the United States are rarely used for self-defense, a gun control advocacy group said Wednesday.

In an analysis of FBI and other federal government data, the non-profit Violence Policy Center said Americans are far more likely to hurt themselves or others when handling a lethal weapon.

In 2012, it said, only 259 "justifiable homicides" involving a private citizen were reported, compared to 8,342 criminal homicides committed with a gun.

Put another way, for every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. And that does not take into account "tens of thousands" of gun-related suicides and unintentional shootings.

The influential National Rifle Association contends that "guns are necessary for self-defence," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

"But this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact," he said in a statement.

"In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense."
User avatar
Mich
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 182
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by trekin » 22 Jun 2015, 11:21 am

You could always use the Minefield Theory;
As the theory goes, with people armed randomly and concealed, you do not know who has a gun.
Thus for a potentially violent criminal, it's like walking through a minefield because they do not know who might try to kill them if they commit a crime.
However in a gun free zone, there is no such risk.
As such, the zone has created a bunch of soft targets that are easier to attack.
The theory has been repeatedly proven valid because, well, no one walks through a minefield.
Image Rifle stock and pistol grip reproduction.
"legally obligated to be a victim in this country"
I earned every grey hair I have.
User avatar
trekin
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 803
Queensland

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by adam » 22 Jun 2015, 11:53 am

I think all the evidence you need is in your own army. You haven't used one ICBM - but just having them has proven to be a significant deterrent in the past. Would these same people say to disarm all your subs, and launch sites and reduce your defense force because they haven't been used, or to cancel your army reservists?
Last edited by adam on 22 Jun 2015, 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
adam
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 319
Victoria

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by David Brown » 22 Jun 2015, 11:57 am

Hundreds of "non-shootings" happen every day in the USA. However if you want the statistic to show up in all the phoney surveys the gun grabbers use, you need to actually shoot to kill in every defensive situation.

Simply thats the facts. But that is not how us good guys want things to be.

What the USA needs to do is implement a register where it is a legal requirement that every CCW defence has to be recorded for statistical purposes. That would be a law worth supporting.

Listen to Toms opening segment of this weeks Gun Talk radio show. Probably about 20 minutes in the second caller hits the nail on the head.

Enjoy! http://guntalk.libsyn.com/guntalk-06-21-2015-part-a
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Title_II » 22 Jun 2015, 12:09 pm

Obama's Capstone project was a 10 million dollar research report on gun violence in early 2013 was supposed to prove once and for all that guns must be banned. It was item #1 on his list of about 20 Executive Orders.

Remember that?

Did you hear the results?

Of course you didn't. The results of the most important gun control effort never got any media attention.

The report said firearms are used by normal civilians to stop crime in the US up to 100x as often as they are used in crimes, but it is hard to determine what the real rate might be. However, there is no doubt that firearms are used to stop violent crime in the US more than they are used to perpetrate crime, at a minimum

He must have been Fing Pissed.

It also said self defense is ALWAYS safer than submission.

And THAT's why the most important thing Obama ever did was never discussed in the media.

http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priori ... d-violence

http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priori ... d-violence
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Baronvonrort » 22 Jun 2015, 6:35 pm

Mich wrote:Hi Ozzies,

This is an article being argued about in the here between some shooting buddies of mine and some non-shooting friends who are leaning towards the anti-gun side if I'm honest.

The pro position is there aren't a large number of self-defence related shootings because the deterrent of carrying alone does the defence for you.

I know you don't have CC there, how do the numbers of crimes there compare to this? Looking for some examples from similar countries without CC to throw in a friends face :lol:

Guns rarely used for self-defense in US

Washington (AFP) - Contrary to what the gun lobby argues, personal firearms in the United States are rarely used for self-defense, a gun control advocacy group said Wednesday.

In an analysis of FBI and other federal government data, the non-profit Violence Policy Center said Americans are far more likely to hurt themselves or others when handling a lethal weapon.

In 2012, it said, only 259 "justifiable homicides" involving a private citizen were reported, compared to 8,342 criminal homicides committed with a gun.

Put another way, for every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. And that does not take into account "tens of thousands" of gun-related suicides and unintentional shootings.

The influential National Rifle Association contends that "guns are necessary for self-defence," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

"But this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact," he said in a statement.

"In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense."


Many people surrender without a shot being fired,even the most hardened of criminals surrender without shooting when police point a gun at them.
My mother had 2 tresspassers surrender by pointing a .22lr rifle at them,without a gun I doubt they would have surrendered to an old lady.

From what my American friends tell me there are no statistics on people who surrender without a shot being fired, we know the number is not zero yet that is how much attention is paid to this defensive gun use.
If someone pulls a gun on someone and says empty the till that is armed robbery even if no shots are fired, defensive gun use should also include figures for people who surrender without a shot being fired.

I would agree with people saying guns are rarely used for defence,i would also add I think the numbers of people who surrender when a gun is pointed at them without a shot being fired is quite substantial.
Baronvonrort
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 896
New South Wales

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by David Brown » 22 Jun 2015, 8:08 pm

Yep……you need to kill them to get a good score. Makes sense doesn't it.
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by adam » 22 Jun 2015, 9:36 pm

When America was first founded, it's founders realized the importance of citizens being armed. Now, centuries later, you have a government that is bent on doing the exact opposite - wanting to undo what the founders established - and disarm it's own citizens.

The former intent was for freedom. What is the latter for? One could consider that maybe it was good intention with naivety - but if they keep covering up the 'facts' to push their agenda, that quickly puts doubt and eliminates that from a possibility.

I can't help but wonder if the American government has done a 180° and is becoming the exact tyrant that was the intention of the 2nd amendment in the first place to discourage.
adam
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 319
Victoria

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by David Brown » 23 Jun 2015, 7:59 am

adam wrote:When America was first founded, it's founders realized the importance of citizens being armed. Now, centuries later, you have a government that is bent on doing the exact opposite - wanting to undo what the founders established - and disarm it's own citizens.

The former intent was for freedom. What is the latter for? One could consider that maybe it was good intention with naivety - but if they keep covering up the 'facts' to push their agenda, that quickly puts doubt and eliminates that from a possibility.

I can't help but wonder if the American government has done a 180° and is becoming the exact tyrant that was the intention of the 2nd amendment in the first place to discourage.



BINGO!

And we are no better. Parade Rest!
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by adam » 23 Jun 2015, 8:46 am

David Brown wrote:
adam wrote:
BINGO!

And we are no better. Parade Rest!


True. We have gone from a government with desire to keep itself accountable by implementing laws, the free press, etc to a government that wants to cover up, put spins on stuff, etc and a press that can be bought, or is bent on their own agendas - fails to allow debates to rest equally and fall on their own merits and the general population that accepts that capitalism is about the bottom line - instead of what's actually good for everyone.

And instead of looking back over the years to see where we've gone wrong, the country seems hell bent on 'moving forward' so they're not 'left behind' - keep up with the other countries.

Well, if keeping up means moving towards a huge train wreck, I'd much rather be slow and still 'living in the past' if it meant real freedom, and honest governments and press.
adam
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 319
Victoria

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Broom » 23 Jun 2015, 10:43 am

David Brown wrote:What the USA needs to do is implement a register where it is a legal requirement that every CCW defence has to be recorded for statistical purposes. That would be a law worth supporting.


Makes sense to me :thumbsup:
Ruger Gunsite Scout in three oh eight. Oh yeah!
User avatar
Broom
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 110
Tasmania

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Title_II » 23 Jun 2015, 12:02 pm

David Brown wrote:Hundreds of "non-shootings" happen every day in the USA. However if you want the statistic to show up in all the phoney surveys the gun grabbers use, you need to actually shoot to kill in every defensive situation.

Simply thats the facts. But that is not how us good guys want things to be.


Every study says it is really, really high. Like 95%+ of self defense uses of firearms (I haven't looked it up in a while).

What the USA needs to do is implement a register where it is a legal requirement that every CCW defence has to be recorded for statistical purposes. That would be a law worth supporting.


Careful there with writing my laws for me, mate ;)

In America, generally, if you kill someone, you are guilty of homicide. You could, of course, offer a defense of Self Defense. How that is handled varies by jurisdiction, but it is not a pleasant place to be.

In America, you are not required to testify against yourself under the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution.

Now, this is going to sound a little odd, so bear with me. It sounded a little odd the first time (and not the last) I was instructed on this by a Firearms Attorney. And I'm sure many people in Australia who are unconcerned with self defense will find it particularly disturbing, albeit for no rational reason at all. (none is required to feel disturbed these days)

Let's take the worst but most simple case. You completely blow away one or more attackers. They are dead as far as you can reasonably tell, and require no medical aid as such. What do you do? Are you out in public with no or few witnesses? Especially away from home? You could call the police. In doing so, you would tell them your name, your phone number, where you live, and that you are guilty of homicide. You just solved their case for them. They have an admission of guilt, even if you say it was self-defense. If they or the District Attorney decide to prosecute, you get your chance to make that claim later. But you walk into court as an admitted murder.

Or, you can walk away. Roughly half of murders are not solved. The majority involve either people who know each other (often solved) and/or gang activity (solved fairly often). One or two thugs with criminal records shot down away from home by someone they never met before is not a likely scenario for the police to find the victim (You) or necessarily even try that hard. If they do find you, you will be in the same position as you would have been except that you have not made an admission the the police have far less evidence. They might not even be able to prosecute. If they do, your lawyer can explain your actions not only under the 5th Amendment but also your fear of criminal retaliation when your name hits the papers next to pictures of their dead homies.
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Title_II » 23 Jun 2015, 12:05 pm

What if you don't shoot at all?

Bad cops, bad district attorneys, in bad areas that don't like guns or (insert your race here) people may decide to charge you with assault with a deadly weapon (a felony), terroristic threats, all sorts of things. So now I didn't even fire a gun and we are proposing a law that might get me sent to jail and lose my rights forever because I am required to waive my 5th Amendment rights and admit to police I did something they may decide is a felony if they want to get me.
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by coloradoboy » 23 Jun 2015, 1:16 pm

hahaha sometimes no rounds get discharged in the first place.

Once upon a time i heard a noise coming from downstairs in the early morning and I used to live by myself so no one should be down there. I got my 870 and buckshot, got out of my room and walked down. The front door was obs tampered with and left ajar. moved around further and heard some rattling coming from the rear of my house. saw the shadow of people as i approached (prbs from my light sensors) and racked the 870. heard them run and from the noise quite hastily.

on hindsight, i probably should not have been so intrepid but it is my home.

I think many defensive firearm uses don't actually involve any discharge in the first place, because to any sane person staring down the barrel or hearing the action of a firearm is enough a deterrent.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"
User avatar
coloradoboy
Private
Private
 
Posts: 50
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Eduardo » 24 Jun 2015, 1:56 pm

The "study" was done by the VPC. That's all I need to know about the veracity of their claims.
Funny, because groups that are funded by the same source stated that there were at least 100,000 self defense uses with guns per year back in 2012.
A volatile mixture of implacable OCD and vexatiuous ADD.
User avatar
Eduardo
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 178
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by David Brown » 25 Jun 2015, 10:47 pm

100,000 per year?

Is that all?

I bet it was more, by at least a factor of 2.
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Title_II » 26 Jun 2015, 11:14 am

David Brown wrote:100,000 per year?

Is that all?

I bet it was more, by at least a factor of 2.


Estimates are as high as 2 million. I think that number is probably high but read the Obama-Gun-Ban-Report I linked for a few good laughs. Think of Obama's face crying while you read it :)
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by David Brown » 26 Jun 2015, 3:15 pm

I try not to think of him. His stupidity not only effects you guys, but us as well.
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by mahna » 29 Jun 2015, 2:40 pm

It's a bugger you can't quantify the incidents it stops from happening completely by the deterrent factor.

I won't make a guess but I bet it's high.
.270 Savage Axis XP
Weaver 40/44 3-10x44
User avatar
mahna
Private
Private
 
Posts: 99
New South Wales

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Title_II » 29 Jun 2015, 11:25 pm

mahna wrote:It's a bugger you can't quantify the incidents it stops from happening completely by the deterrent factor.

I won't make a guess but I bet it's high.


We have a good idea where it lies. The range is pretty broad but we know it's probably around 500,000 to 2 million.
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: "Guns rarely used for self-defense in US"

Post by Herdsman » 01 Jul 2015, 11:45 am

Even at the low end, clear winner
Shepherding bullets down range.

Tikka Hunter Stainless Fluted 300 Win Mag
Tikka Battue Lite .308 Win
Tikka Varmint Stainless .222 Rem
User avatar
Herdsman
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 312
Victoria


Back to top
 
Return to Firearms related media and politics