Adler Shotgun to be banned by PM Tony Abbott

[Gwion]

@ PenYank.

To understand what i mean re: 'radical fringe', you need to be familiar with our political history over the last 20 odd years. That's not something i am about to try to fill you in on.

I am all for looking at the legislation and making it easier for licensed shooters to access firearms suited to particular activities. It is bandied about a lot, but the New Zealand model seems to work very well.

To achieve any roll back, we would have to concede to more stringent licencing arrangements/qualification. EG: as they do in NZ, with interviews and individual vetting of licence applicants.

I guess the 'radical fringe' i'm referring to are those saying that no licencing or regulation is necessary and everyone should be able to get what ever they want for what ever purpose they want. Those days are long gone in Australia and the general population doesn't want to see them return; including many licensed shooters.

Many, if not the majority, are happy enough to comply with some regulations in the interest of public safety. Safe storage requirements are seen to keep children safe and prevent accidents. The vetting process for licenses is seen to keep access to fire arms out of "unstable" hands.

Pushing to have all firearms laws repealed does us no favours if we want to be seen as reasonable and responsible members of the community. Putting forward reasonable and considered alternatives is for more useful. If you aren't prepared to give, you can't expect to take.

And again, the Us & Them attitude just puts otherwise supportive people off side.

Just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

[Gwion]

in relation to voting though it appears to be a very controversial situation on how to vote to begin with...some people want us to vote above the line and some want us to vote below the line? anyone want to add their 2 cents please do.

Mate. Vote however YOU see fit. It is YOUR vote and no-one else's.

The more we are seen as ordinary Australians who are responsible and conscientious, the more moderate Pollies will see that there is a vote to be had in showing real support for responsible shooters.

Again, just my take on it.

[pajamatime]

@ Brett.
Cheers, mate. Being a responsible shooter is nothing to be ashamed of and being a shooter and also being PC are not mutually exclusive. Keep sharing your sport with those around you as though it were nothing out of the ordinary.

people are way to shy these days and to be honest I have been one of those secretive types. They are banking on this behavior me thinks and their campaign has only been this strong for this long because we just struggle to really be loud and proud (politely) and get the word out. They have us so scared that we can't even talk about it....maybe its time we stopped being their bitch?

[XP22]

@ PenYank.

To understand what i mean re: 'radical fringe', you need to be familiar with our political history over the last 20 odd years. That's not something i am about to try to fill you in on.

I am all for looking at the legislation and making it easier for licensed shooters to access firearms suited to particular activities. It is bandied about a lot, but the New Zealand model seems to work very well.

To achieve any roll back, we would have to concede to more stringent licencing arrangements/qualification. EG: as they do in NZ, with interviews and individual vetting of licence applicants.

I guess the 'radical fringe' i'm referring to are those saying that no licencing or regulation is necessary and everyone should be able to get what ever they want for what ever purpose they want. Those days are long gone in Australia and the general population doesn't want to see them return; including many licensed shooters.

Many, if not the majority, are happy enough to comply with some regulations in the interest of public safety. Safe storage requirements are seen to keep children safe and prevent accidents. The vetting process for licenses is seen to keep access to fire arms out of "unstable" hands.

Pushing to have all firearms laws repealed does us no favours if we want to be seen as reasonable and responsible members of the community. Putting forward reasonable and considered alternatives is for more useful. If you aren't prepared to give, you can't expect to take.

And again, the Us & Them attitude just puts otherwise supportive people off side.

Just my take. Some will agree, some will disagree.

And disagree strongly I do,

I am one of the radical fringe then, I had no issue when you could walk in buy whatever you wanted and didn't need a licence or even cared what others thought. Gun crime wasn't huge and most people who did commit a crime were able to be prosecuted under existing law. It wasn't until restrictions were put in place that we started to see issues.

Billions have been spent regulating a useless database (when no crime has been solved by reference to the firearms database since inception- therefore it is useless) and on unneccesary checks and restrictions on law abiding firearms owners(people who mostly would do whatever the Government tells them anyway).

Licencing and registration have done nothing to reduce crime in this country nor restricted the access criminals have to firearms(as proven by the new firearms criminals now posess that never entered the country legally as as reported to the recent commission).

So in light of the fact that nothing has been achieved by the level of regulation we currently have why keep it?

If laws restricting semi auto ownership, the use of silencers and registration allow you to sleep better at night then keep a tight hold of that illusion but you only need to look over the Tasman to see that the sky hasn't fallen in on NZ.without draconian laws.

[Oldbloke]

Who has sent an email to the PM or local member? Lots of talk here, but is there any action?

[XP22]

Who has sent an email to the PM or local member? Lots of talk here, but is there any action?

Stuff the emails, drop in when you are walking past the office and ask for an appointment, write proper letters, annoy the piss out of them, harass the local newspaper, tTrain family and club members to do the same thing. The secretaries for my local State and Federal members for the House of reps and senate know me by name(both now shoot too).

Support any party willing to take your case to parliament, even if they are bound to lose a solid number of primary votes shows up on statistics and pollies love stats.

[Gwion]

And it's that aggressive, uncooperative attitude i'm talking about.

It serves no purpose and will achieve nothing. You will never achieve a complete roll back and to say it's all or nothing, or that anyone with a more moderate approach is against you is so counter productive that it needs no further comment.

I am neither sycophant nor willing to accept what ever "pap" i'm fed, which is why i don't allow myself to be shouted down by unhelpful responses such as your own.

I too grew up in times when there were fewer gun laws and low rates of crime. Reality is, some form of law and regulation is here to stay. You use NZ as an example, but refuse to acknowledge that their selection and vetting process for firearms licenses are far more stringent and comprehensive than ours. For that vetting process, they then have greater freedoms once a license has been approved.

Us & Them.... You're With Us or Ag'in Us..... this is the attitude that drives the Average Aussie away from giving a damn about what happens in relation to firearms licensing and regulations or about what happens to responsible shooters.

[XP22]

And it's that aggressive, uncooperative attitude i'm talking about.

It serves no purpose and will achieve nothing. You will never achieve a complete roll back and to say it's all or nothing, or that anyone with a more moderate approach is against you is so counter productive that it needs no further comment.

I am neither sycophant nor willing to accept what ever "pap" i'm fed, which is why i don't allow myself to be shouted down by unhelpful responses such as your own.

I too grew up in times when there were fewer gun laws and low rates of crime. Reality is, some form of law and regulation is here to stay. You use NZ as an example, but refuse to acknowledge that their selection and vetting process for firearms licenses are far more stringent and comprehensive than ours. For that vetting process, they then have greater freedoms once a license has been approved.

Us & Them.... You're With Us or Ag'in Us..... this is the attitude that drives the Average Aussie away from giving a damn about what happens in relation to firearms licensing and regulations or about what happens to responsible shooters.

Here we go, as soon as someone disagrees with your views it is unco-operative and agressive! Who gave you the gavel to speak for all firearm owners? Passive laying down to whatever is served up to and learning to nod in sync with absolutely illogical laws has gotten us absolutely nowhere and never will.
YOU are willing to take whatever is given and allow excuses for what has been taken, your posts on the subject reinforce your standpoint.

So you are going to try and reason with the likes of Roland Browne and the Greens in the hope you may retain a vestige of what you once had? Well they don't restrain themselves to fact or the niceties, grow a spine. Timidly trying to avoid making waves hasn't worked so far and won't.

You are yet to allow ONE single factual argument as to why we should accept what we have been grudgingly allowed by the government and actually have the cheek to critiscise those that want more than your lick arsing views allow.

Then you have the temerity to whinge about being shouted at when you display total negativity and immediately roll over.

In actual fact our present parliamentary laws are just as tight as NZ's when it comes to vettting, it just doesn't get applied. AND THEY STILL HAVE SEMI AUTOS, SILENCERS AND NO REGISTRATION.

FWIW I come from an era when there were NO gun laws.

[deye243]

Who has sent an email to the PM or local member? Lots of talk here, but is there any action?

as has been pointed out by the shooters and fishers party this is a useless thing to do as the PM just has a junior staffer delete them

what you have to do is wright a letter yep the old school , because then they have to log it in and then reply to it but an email can just

be deleted .......

[Baronvonrort]

Who has sent an email to the PM or local member? Lots of talk here, but is there any action?

as has been pointed out by the shooters and fishers party this is a useless thing to do as the PM just has a junior staffer delete them

what you have to do is wright a letter yep the old school , because then they have to log it in and then reply to it but an email can just

be deleted .......

I have emailed many members of parliament over the last few years, they always replied by automated email saying they received email and will reply later,they usually reply by mail if you give your address,nothing has ever been deleted they have responded to everything and f#ck me dead they have even resolved problems to my satisfaction.

[DML]

Flack Jacket Johnny's brother, Abbott the Maggot, really likes to listen to the people.

I can hear him now: "It's what the people of Australia want."

[bigfellascott]

Flack Jacket Johnny's brother, Abbott the Maggot, really likes to listen to the people.

I can hear him now: "It's what the people of Australia want."

It's what his puppet masters want (New World Order) the slow but gradual disarming of civilians is happening all over the world, the question people really should be asking is why!

[anthillinside]

Do anything and everything you can it ALL helps.
The only thing that doesn't help is doing nothing.
Real paper letters help, they are hard to ignore.
They represent one demographic, primarily the older population.
Emails help, they represent another demographic, lets call it middle age.
Tweets, Facebook posts etc. represent the younger demographic.
Politicians have watchers analysing all these groups and play to what they are told are the most significant group for any given topic.
Ask yourself, why would a 60 year old poly have a face book and twitter account?
To watch and INFLUENCE.
OH and if you think it’s actually THEM that does to tweeting and posting then your probably not old enough to have a license.
It’s a numbers game, do anything your comfortable with.
Put pen to paper, email, post, tweet, sling a few bucks to the SFP or SSAA or whoever.
Dare I say all politicians are for sale in one way, all political parties and lobby groups need money, and they know where the money is coming from.

[Pennsylvania Yank]

It seems to me that the politicians in your country are clinging to the notion that ever since the great "buyback" and since restrictive laws were put into place, there have been no mass shootings in Australia since P Aurthur.... Now if that is what you value as a society, (ie forget about measuring some loss of freedom or potential increases in taxes and other burdens, or increases in the overall crime rates) then it's pointless to argue against that kind of "success".

But the problem is when these politicians see themselves as "having to do something" about this or that loophole in the law to further drill down on the public safety aspect of gun control. For instance, they engage in theatrics and hand wringing over the fact that the number of guns in the hands of civilians in Australia are at record levels and have even risk surpassing the number held before the buyback I'm told. They are different kinds of guns of course with greater restrictions, but why let that fact enter the equation when you are trying to use emotion to further an agenda of more control??? In Britain, these loopholes enjoyed by the law abiding that need to be closed are now reduced to things like replica guns and BB guns... That kind of nonsense is where the nanny state gun control model can lead.

I suspect based on the above, these gun grabbers already feel there is a growing and dangerous gun culture festering in Australia and they are pissed about it.... You have your hands full I think. Best of luck to you.

[DML]

the question people really should be asking is why!

That's a simple question to answer. A firearm, at the most basic and primitive level, makes a person stronger and more powerful; to be feared and not messed with. This is the reason why the Second Amendment of the US Constitution exists. Governments from around the world are quickly slipping into the next notch in their journey towards complete control, and those governments prefer their citizens weak - weak in their buying power, weak in their state of health, weak in their ability to think for themselves, weak in their personal independence and weak in their ability to defend themselves.

[anthillinside]

@ Pennsylvania Yank.
Exactly correct.
You have a very good insight into our situation.
From your previuos posts I think you have been through it in your own country in it's own unique way.
And I appreciate your sharing the knoweledge.

[Pennsylvania Yank]

the question people really should be asking is why!

That's a simple question to answer. A firearm, at the most basic and primitive level, makes a person stronger and more powerful; to be feared and not messed with. This is the reason why the Second Amendment of the US Constitution exists. Governments from around the world are quickly slipping into the next notch in their journey towards complete control, and those governments prefer their citizens weak - weak in their buying power, weak in their state of health, weak in their ability to think for themselves, weak in their personal independence and weak in their ability to defend themselves.

Yep. A weak and hungry and helpless citizen is easier to control. An unacceptable number of UN peacekeepers and aid workers normally engage in a vigorous trade of sex for food, and food and medicine in exchange for unquestioning compliance and submission, this wherever they are stationed. Enter guns for the law abiding into the equation, and perhaps it's not so fun for them anymore.

[pajamatime]

@ Pennsylvania Yank.
Exactly correct.
You have a very good insight into our situation.
From your previuos posts I think you have been through it in your own country in it's own unique way.
And I appreciate your sharing the knoweledge.

yeah his opinions are more then welcome here. I personally can't fault him.
Hes right the time for tippy toeing about has done nothing but slow disarmament not stop it.
We need something more powerful and high profile PRish similar to American NRA.

And I'm not 100% sure but shooters union may be maneuvering itself to be that "powerful PR" and or General Powerhouse that we need.
I like what they are doing with the whole Canadian MP visit to come over and talk to some of the higher ups about the whole registry issue.

SSAA, I'm not sure what its purpose is....but it might be pressured into action or end up loosing its solid footing. People don't think its doing good enough? I really don't know what to think. I think they are doing ok in terms of giving us a good name to the communities, responsible shooting education stuff etc. I firmly believe they have their place in all this...would be nice if they were more aggressive on the front lines though.

edit: with the pro gun political parties though...I'm not 100% sure what to think. the liberal democratic party is very passionate about Firearms though and appear to be making waves "nanny state inquiry" etc. which is interesting....

see considering how screwed everything really is...perhaps Australia needs something as passionate and radical as the liberal democrats in power for a while to roll back some of the rubbish lol. Shooters and fishers party probably wont like me saying that though...*shrugs*
can't please everyone all the time =(

[Title_II]

@ Pennsylvania Yank.
Exactly correct.
You have a very good insight into our situation.
From your previuos posts I think you have been through it in your own country in it's own unique way.
And I appreciate your sharing the knoweledge.

@ Pennsylvania Yank....

yeah his opinions are more then welcome here. I personally can't fault him.
Hes right the time for tippy toeing about has done nothing but slow disarmament not stop it.

Um, guys, read the thread again. I said all that stuff, Yank never did. He just pointed out why I was mistaken

[Wylie27]

Pajamatime,

I was banned from the SSAA Facebook page for asking what are they doing about this latest attack.. When I followed it up I was told it was a derogatory attack on the SSAA brand.

Yep. They are useless and weak. I like the Sydney branch they are righting but the National branch just shut up shop and go home.

[brett1868]

SSAA's response, looks appropriate at this stage of the battle. Lays out some facts and asks the right questions.

http://www.ssaansw.org.au/index.php/home-page-articles/449-ssaa-open-letter-to-justice-minister

[Harper]

Do anything and everything you can

I will eat this pancake in front of me in support of Adler

[trekin]

Pajamatime,

I was banned from the SSAA Facebook page for asking what are they doing about this latest attack.. When I followed it up I was told it was a derogatory attack on the SSAA brand.

Yep. They are useless and weak. I like the Sydney branch they are righting but the National branch just shut up shop and go home.

At least you didn't cop a life time ban like SSAA QLD did to large number of members up here in '97, when they pushed them to answer why they didn't take the then police minister's offer of adding sports use as genuine reason for Cat C/D.

[brett1868]

Do anything and everything you can

I will eat this pancake in front of me in support of Adler

Double your efforts by eating 2

[Wylie27]

Pajamatime,

I was banned from the SSAA Facebook page for asking what are they doing about this latest attack.. When I followed it up I was told it was a derogatory attack on the SSAA brand.

Yep. They are useless and weak. I like the Sydney branch they are righting but the National branch just shut up shop and go home.

At least you didn't cop a life time ban like SSAA QLD did to large number of members up here in '97, when they pushed them to answer why they didn't take the then police minister's offer of adding sports use as genuine reason for Cat C/D.

that is insane..why the hell didn't they.. god damned inept organisation.. I do like the turn around the Sydney branch has had.. stepping in the right direction defending the ssaa constitution.

i find it funny i was banned for asking if they have a template of messages we should send and will they run advertising campaign..lol

[trekin]

Pajamatime,

I was banned from the SSAA Facebook page for asking what are they doing about this latest attack.. When I followed it up I was told it was a derogatory attack on the SSAA brand.

Yep. They are useless and weak. I like the Sydney branch they are righting but the National branch just shut up shop and go home.

At least you didn't cop a life time ban like SSAA QLD did to large number of members up here in '97, when they pushed them to answer why they didn't take the then police minister's offer of adding sports use as genuine reason for Cat C/D.

that is insane..why the hell didn't they.. god damned inept organisation.. I do like the turn around the Sydney branch has had.. stepping in the right direction defending the ssaa constitution.

i find it funny i was banned for asking if they have a template of messages we should send and will they run advertising campaign..lol

Yeah, something to do with a $3 mil grant and a set of keys from the Feds.

[bear foot bowhunter]

http://m.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/national/gun-debate-coalition-senator-wants-shooters-to-have-seat-at-table/story-fnkfnspy-1227460073692

Thort the pole on this was interesting

[VICHunter]

I thought this would have all blown over by now as it's a storm in a tea cup but I was wrong.

Looks like it could well be one more incremental gun grab.

[DML]

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/sport/ ... 7474092079

With so much riding on this, he should've been kicked out if he didn't resign. Yeah, you can compare the lever to a pump, but only if that comparison is logical (ie. calling for pump actions to be put in Category A, where levers have been since the beginning, if they are so similar). If you can't hold the line, then get out of the way and let somebody else take your place... you're just going to do us damage.

The anti-freedom, globalist, gun-hating idiots are amassing (all 20 of them) and they see a small bump in the road - the freeway - to the complete ruin of Australia, and they'll work hammer and tong to get that bump smoothed and have us doing 200km/h in the direction of total pussification if pressure isn't maintained.

[bigfellascott]

Might be still on with a 5 shot mag apparently - time will tell I guess.