Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by adam » 27 Jan 2016, 2:49 pm

Disgusting:

A 17 year old teenager avoided being raped by using a non lethal deterrent - pepper spray - against an offender whilst he was unbuttoning her pants.

Instead of congratulating her on avoiding being a victim, she is currently looking at facing charges because pepper spray is illegal in Denmark (the same as in Australia).

Their government, just like ours would prefer for their citizens to be indefendable and raped, and let the authorities pick up the mess later, rather than to give someone a chance at fending off a violent criminal with a non lethal defense option.

Yet the citizens in Denmark have backed her - with many offers to pay the fine on her behalf. Kinda get worried about how out of touch our "democratic" governments are with the people they "serve"...

Yes - let's keep saying "No to violence against women". Let's just keep talking - and not change anything.

source: http://www.inquisitr.com/2741389/danish ... per-spray/
adam
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 319
Victoria

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by happyhunter » 27 Jan 2016, 3:05 pm

.
Last edited by happyhunter on 16 Feb 2017, 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
happyhunter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1303
Other

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Title_II » 28 Jan 2016, 2:43 am

We had a police chief from one of our cities, might have even been Philadelphia (Pennsylvania), say, regarding people carrying guns, "I'd rather my officers show up to a shooting than show up to a gunfight."

In other words, it would be more convenient if you could please die before we arrive.
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Title_II » 28 Jan 2016, 2:47 am

Of course, he never mentioned the possibility of police STOPPING the attack. Because, they never do. Most cops spend their entire career never saving anyone from a violent assault or murder. It almost never happens. Yet they spend their careers investigating violent assaults, and in some places murders.

The cops will never save you. You are on your own. Their job is to investigate crimes and arrest suspects.
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by happyhunter » 28 Jan 2016, 6:57 am

.
Last edited by happyhunter on 16 Feb 2017, 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
happyhunter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1303
Other

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by adam » 28 Jan 2016, 7:59 am

I don't see this as being a police issue, but a government issue. Police don't make the laws - they enforce them.

As for police rarely being there to stop a crime - this is absolutely correct, but once again it's not the police's fault. Unless the government funded them so there was a cop on every corner AND changed the OH&S regulations - they can't be expected to do the impossible.

The problem isn't with the police - it's with us being expected to rely on them to do what they can't do. Blaming the police just distracts us from where the real problem lies - with the governing authorities. They are the only ones capable of changing the laws.

People are beginning to wake up to the fact that ambo's can't be there in a timely fashion in many cases. This is why defibrillators are now being deployed in numerous places including work environments, sporting clubs, etc and more people are encouraged for first aid training.

We can recognize the importance of every day people being equipped to handle certain emergency situations - at least until help arrives - why the opposite approach when it comes to violence? A simple can of spray was all it took for a teenager to defend herself from a violent rapist (and who knows what he may have done when he was finished - it could have escalated to murder which it has plenty of other times).

Instead in the governments eyes she did the wrong thing - if she wasn't capable of overpowering her attacker with her own strength she should have just accepted her fate?!? According to both the Denmark, and Australian authorities - the answer would appear to be 'Yes'. :-(
adam
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 319
Victoria

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by happyhunter » 28 Jan 2016, 8:58 pm

.
Last edited by happyhunter on 16 Feb 2017, 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
happyhunter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1303
Other

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Title_II » 29 Jan 2016, 4:10 am

happyhunter wrote:You are right in that police don't write the laws although these days they seem to be crossing the line by heavily influencing the legislators. A lot of the pressure to further restrict public access to weapons comes from police brass. These are the people the pollies seem to turn to for advice regarding the control of weapons.


This has come up here before. Let me talk about America a bit.

In America it is the same. But it is police union leaders (politicians) and city police chiefs (politicians). These people speak for police in public on behalf of the pollies, but they do not really represent the police.

It would not surprise me to hear that police in Oz are a little more anti-gun than police in America. That being said, I am sure your police overall are not as anti-gun as their chief "police politicians" say they are.

I know you guys get programing from the US and see our "top cops" saying the same stuff. Guns off the street, gun bans, etc. Here is what the cops REALLY think:

http://ddq74coujkv1i.cloudfront.net/p1_ ... y_2013.pdf
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Title_II » 29 Jan 2016, 4:16 am

User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 29 Jan 2016, 8:14 am

It is truly disgusting, but correct that we are through law, disarmed of any means whatsoever to defend ourselves and those around us. For the most part law initiated by police policy, advising the police minister, then working its way through the houses of parliament, generally with the aid of a media campaign be it social or mainstream, generally resting on a firm astroturf foundation.... to satisfy the public need/public acceptance and perpetuating the fantasy of the will of the people....

Look at the knife carriage situation in Vic, we had a spate of young gangs carrying and using knives, these gangs were a majority Sudanese (regugees... welcome to our country!) who were too frequently caught after using knives, or carrying them for obviously nefarious reasons.

Result? The right to carry a knife was stripped away from ALL Victorians, even a little pocket knife.

The victim victim; I wonder if the guy in Blackburn, who had his gun cabinet stolen while police watched them drive away - had charges laid for storage offences; not enough fixings on the cabinet, obviously chum, we'll have to charge you...
<<Genesis93>>
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2191
-

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by adam » 29 Jan 2016, 10:46 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:Result? The right to carry a knife was stripped away from ALL Victorians, even a little pocket knife.


And has that stopped the criminals from carrying knives? Nope... They have everything that is deemed illegal. Firearms, Knives, Tazers, you name it - police are constantly finding these weapons on criminals.

I saw a female openly admit on the news a few months ago that she carries a sharpened pencil with her where ever she goes as a means of defense.

Understandable, but I can't help but wonder - what would be better for her to have. That - which has the ability to inflict GBH or even be fatal - or a can of spray which could be used, and is not lethal?

By all means "SAY NO TO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN" - just make sure all you do is "Say" and use words - and nothing more. Definitely don't give them the ability to stop that violence themselves! :crazy:
adam
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 319
Victoria

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by happyhunter » 29 Jan 2016, 12:05 pm

.
Last edited by happyhunter on 17 Feb 2017, 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
happyhunter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1303
Other

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 29 Jan 2016, 12:56 pm

Yup, the police are 'required' to carry numerous implements, including a 40Cal pistol (restricted cal to common people, prohibited magazine for common people) specifically to kill someone the moment they 'feel' in danger... (please word that another way if you disagree, by all means...)

Yet the citizenry is absolutely prohibited to possess anything to defend themselves.... and possession is not necessarily on 'their person', merely having access to something....

We have a whole act of parliament that controls 'body armour' and the law is called the control of weapons Act (& regs) because of course we all know that protective clothing is a 'weapon' as in an implement that intended to or indeed used to injure another person.... :wtf:

So our system is so effed that merely 'having access' to body armour

"..that is designed, intended or adapted for the purpose of protecting the body from the effects of a weapon, including a firearm;"

So it would include wearing a Ned Kellyesque cylindrical iron face/head mask....

Would earn an obviously highly criminally intent Victorian a fine of 240pu ( $36,000 ?) or a 2 year vacation...

So I'm wondering how these brilliant public servants could satisfy any measure of sensibility in construing such ridiculousness?

I mean, its obvious that the concept of a crim undertaking a criminal action would be more difficult to kill with gear on..... just couple a few lines under the criminal code, say committing a crim WITH body armour, or intent to commit, or a prohibitted person WITH body armour.....

No they take away, from the law abiding all access, period.
<<Genesis93>>
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2191
-

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Wes » 15 Feb 2016, 10:41 am

happyhunter wrote:These methods of self defenses are illegal by request of the police. That is where the blame should be pointed.


+1
User avatar
Wes
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 364
Victoria

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 15 Feb 2016, 10:59 am

Wes wrote:
happyhunter wrote:These methods of self defenses are illegal by request of the police. That is where the blame should be pointed.


+1

-1.

We can not carry a knife, period, certainly not for self defence...
We can not own a gun for the reason of self defence...

But I'm unaware of any law that prohibits or permits the use of particular means or methods of self defence.

So, I would like to see the law that says "use of X in self defence is illegal"

I day without learning something is a wasted day :thumbsup:
<<Genesis93>>
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2191
-

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by chacka » 22 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

<<Genesis93>> wrote:We can not carry a knife, period, certainly not for self defence...
We can not own a gun for the reason of self defence...

But I'm unaware of any law that prohibits or permits the use of particular means or methods of self defence.

So, I would like to see the law that says "use of X in self defence is illegal"


I don't have the information handy to copy paste a quote from but I'm pretty sure it's worded in one of the acts that carrying anything for the purposes of self defence is illegal.

I guess if push came to shove and you defended yourself with something you had on you it would come down to the Police proving you were carrying it for the purpose of self defence, (or probably you have to prove you were not carrying it for that reason :roll:)

Ironically if you were attacked and picked up one of the same objects that was sitting on a table next to you and defended yourself with it, you wouldn't be at any risk because you weren't carrying it before hand.

Defending yourself with a pocket knive vs a knife picked off a cafe table you're sitting at? Different? Not to me....

:problem:
More Than Just The Gun
User avatar
chacka
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 331
South Australia

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Gwion » 22 Feb 2016, 1:50 pm

Can't carry for self defence; doesn't mean can't use for self defence.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 22 Feb 2016, 2:29 pm

you can not carry a baseball bat in the car.....(might be construed as carrying for S.Defence/offence)
You CAN carry a baseball bat, mitt and balls and associate stuff - because you are prepared for a random game of baseball!! ;)
<<Genesis93>>
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2191
-

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by David Brown » 23 Feb 2016, 4:59 pm

Gen93

You are making too much sense! Stop it immediately :-)

So in Victoria you can't have a small blade knife on you even if you have a useful reason, like using it at work. I carry one all the time. And there is no way on earth I would want to use it for self defence. It is not big enough and it would only add to the problem. A nice XDM or M&P or RAP etc would however be a nice option.
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 23 Feb 2016, 6:38 pm

David Brown wrote:Gen93

You are making too much sense! Stop it immediately :-)

So in Victoria you can't have a small blade knife on you even if you have a useful reason, like using it at work. I carry one all the time. And there is no way on earth I would want to use it for self defence. It is not big enough and it would only add to the problem. A nice XDM or M&P or RAP etc would however be a nice option.


Sorry DB, I'll try to contain myself..... ;)

Knife carriage only with as a 'lawful excuse', occupation etc, say farmer (who might need to undertake an emergency castration :lol: :unknown: ) I'm trying to think of another job where a knife is a common tool, no doubt there are many more....

But a knife "to cut my apply at lunch".... would probably see you in more crap than - a one legged.... dang I think I've run out of funny material today.
<<Genesis93>>
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2191
-

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by David Brown » 24 Feb 2016, 11:02 am

I use mine opening cartons, cutting packing straps…..has been used on fruit a couple of times.

Was that going to be than a three legged cat with a dog after it?
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Title_II » 24 Feb 2016, 11:28 pm

chacka wrote:
<<Genesis93>> wrote:We can not carry a knife, period, certainly not for self defence...
We can not own a gun for the reason of self defence...

But I'm unaware of any law that prohibits or permits the use of particular means or methods of self defence.

So, I would like to see the law that says "use of X in self defence is illegal"


I don't have the information handy to copy paste a quote from but I'm pretty sure it's worded in one of the acts that carrying anything for the purposes of self defence is illegal.


Do most people understand how completely insane that sounds? And how malevolently totalitarian it is?
User avatar
Title_II
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1430
United States of America

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by David Brown » 25 Feb 2016, 9:02 am

As best I can sum it up, it is this. If you need to use force in self defence you can use whatever you have available so long as it is reasonable. In other words you are threatened with death by spaghetti and you defend with an AR15. Kind of silly but you get the point.

If you use whatever is at hand, be it a cordless drill and drill bit, baseball bat or 1911, thats OK. But you are never allowed to have them close at hand for the purpose of self defence. You can have them for their normal intended purpose of course and the secondary use is OK if necessary. For firearms the only primary uses are occupational, hunting or target sports and they must be locked away except while being used, transported to and from your home or while cleaning.

You are not permitted to just have loaded 1911's laying around the house, that is unsafe storage.

The old joke about your wife being raped and murdered……just ask the crime to hold on a few minutes while you unlock the safe, get the pistol out, then unlock the ammo box (separate of course) and load the magazine.
David Brown
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 421
Queensland

Re: Aus isn't the only country that victimises victims...

Post by Gregg » 01 Mar 2016, 10:52 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:you can not carry a baseball bat in the car.....(might be construed as carrying for S.Defence/offence)
You CAN carry a baseball bat, mitt and balls and associate stuff - because you are prepared for a random game of baseball!! ;)


Keeping a breaker bar in the car is great for..... changing tires.
Howa 1500 .270 WInchester
Savage Model 10/110 Predator .204 Ruger
User avatar
Gregg
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 378
South Australia


Back to top
 
Return to Firearms related media and politics