Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

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Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by adam » 06 Apr 2016, 3:58 pm

Most people here are well aware that gun laws are having little impact on gun crime, and that tightening the laws on LFO's will continue to do little to affect crime, but only hurt innocent people.

More importantly, if the country continues to pursue the same path has 20 years ago will cost more lives because changes will be in effect.

The Greens and GCA have takeen the opportunity to take the lead on this subject as solution providers - and I believe in part we are to blame for that.

If no one is putting forward good solutions to the problem, the vacuum that remains will suck in any other trash that is presented instead.

If we can start pushing a far better idea we may be able to push them out as the solution bearers. It's not enough to show the faults in their logic - we need to be providing a proper solution as well.

So - a thread as a brainstorm. What ideas can we come up with - that will be effective in targeting gun crime? Something that could be presented to a MP, or an organization that's serious about the problem - not just about their own phobias.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Gwion » 06 Apr 2016, 4:35 pm

Harsh penalties for stealing guns, selling illegal guns and possessing illegal guns would be a start.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by pajamatime » 06 Apr 2016, 4:57 pm

Gwion wrote:Harsh penalties for stealing guns, selling illegal guns and possessing illegal guns would be a start.


While to some degree I agree with this I must point out that allot of good people won't register their firearms purely out of protest against the draconian laws to begin with.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by pajamatime » 06 Apr 2016, 5:13 pm

ok so you want to stop crime? lets look at how much "risk" is involved with crime in the first place. Currently criminals have it pretty good here in Australia and crime is a relatively low risk occupation given most citizens are reasonably defenseless and if a criminal is unlucky their victims will most likely pull out at most a baseball bat or a torch something like that.

1. Ok so first we need to evaluate the risk associated with the crime/s these maybe intermediate risks which are the most important risks which for example may include dying, being injured, maybe the target is heavily armed (gun etc) and also external risks for example. police, going to jail if convicted, or maybe even possible being shot by police etc.

2. then we need to evaluate whether or not the immediate risk is high enough to deter crime, or stop a crime from continuing.

3. then we need to evaluate who the first responder is in relation to the crime and whether or not the first responder is capable of increasing the risk substantially at that moment in time. ( most of the time its the victim who is the first responder and most of the time the victim is ill equip to protect and preserve themselves and also up the risk substantially to stop a crime in progress in what ever way that may eventuate (death of the criminal, incapacitating the criminal temporarily, citizens arrest etc etc) .


I hope it makes sense, it was a bit of a rush job.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by adam » 06 Apr 2016, 5:23 pm

pajamatime wrote:
Gwion wrote:Harsh penalties for stealing guns, selling illegal guns and possessing illegal guns would be a start.


While to some degree I agree with this I must point out that allot of good people won't register their firearms purely out of protest against the draconian laws to begin with.


Better them than law abiding people. Far too much has already been targeted at those doing the right thing as opposed to those breaking the laws. And if that actually does help - then it's a move in the right direction...

However in saying that, while I believe harsher penalties would be a good start - but what should those penalties be?

You have with that are that the government is reluctant to send anyone to Jail - and when they do they support minimum time because it costs them too much money.

Deportation for any immigrant who's caught under criminal the firearm offenses. (Heck - expand that to not only be guns. Drugs, sexual assaults, murder, etc. That would be a good start, a cheaper option, and deals directly with the problem person). Of course that would only work if the person(s) involved were immigrants... (I'd like to deport other criminals too - even Australian borne ones - but that wouldn't be realistic)...
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by adam » 06 Apr 2016, 5:25 pm

pajamatime wrote:ok so you want to stop crime? lets look at how much "risk" is involved with crime in the first place. Currently criminals have it pretty good here in Australia and crime is a relatively low risk occupation given most citizens are reasonably defenseless and if a criminal is unlucky their victims will most likely pull out at most a baseball bat or a torch something like that.


You raise a good point, and you're right - when Vicpol don't pursue criminals who have just placed a stolen safe full of guns in the back of a stolen car and drive away - you gotta start thinking that something needs to be done to make it tougher for criminals - not LFO's.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by RoginaJack » 06 Apr 2016, 6:07 pm

Well, how about for starters the courts start enforcing the current laws. Must drive the boys in blue crazy - armed robbers out before the paperwork is completed...
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Die Judicii » 06 Apr 2016, 8:06 pm

adam wrote: the government is reluctant to send anyone to Jail - and when they do they support minimum time because it costs them too much money.
.


To hell with all that crap,,,,,

For anyone committing murder using a firearm (other than some poor bas*ard trying to protect family etc),,,, Bring back CAPITAL punishment.

That would be cheaper,, lower the numbers in prison,, and be a dammm good deterrent for future prospective perpetrators.

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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by tom604 » 06 Apr 2016, 8:24 pm

mandatory sentencing ,say 10 years for a first offence. reduced to five if they turn on their mates and tell where they got the guns from but only if it results in a conviction, no conviction back up to ten. or you could reduce it to five for info on murders drugs ect but only if the cops get convictions. judges would have to man up for it to be effective and thats just not going to happen :thumbsdown:
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Noisydad » 06 Apr 2016, 9:40 pm

A properly funded, staffed and resourced customs service would help by sealing some of our colander like borders.
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 06 Apr 2016, 10:02 pm

Die Judicii wrote:
adam wrote: the government is reluctant to send anyone to Jail - and when they do they support minimum time because it costs them too much money.
.


To hell with all that crap,,,,,

For anyone committing murder using a firearm (other than some poor bas*ard trying to protect family etc),,,, Bring back CAPITAL punishment.

That would be cheaper,, lower the numbers in prison,, and be a dammm good deterrent for future prospective perpetrators.

:clap: :drinks:

You're just selfish and discriminatory. Make the spiritual, economic and sociological benefits of capital punishment available to ALL murderers. Surgical snip chop to all paedos.... deportation to any new or newish arrival on conviction of specified offences.... what else, make pollies accountable for their decisions but most importantly to reduce gun crime; its not up to us or the greens.... its up to the police to do their JOB. unless any new types of crimes have been invented recently - their are laws and penalties covering most all things the crims will get up to including gun crime.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by juststarting » 06 Apr 2016, 10:09 pm

Soviet Russia circa 1947, illegal firearm = 15 years in pound me in the arse prison. Problem solved. None of this bullsh*t three strikes business.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by pete1 » 06 Apr 2016, 11:01 pm

First need to work out how many illegal firearms are out there Police aren't sure and a large percentage they don't even know where they come from.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by pomemax » 07 Apr 2016, 12:14 am

Its very simple realy you use a firearm of ANY TYPE 15 years Minimum/ Mandatory ADDED TO ANY SENTENCE WITH NO PAROLE
IE: Current in NSW LIFE IS 25 use a firearm it 40 with no parole and no time for time already servered on the fall of the hammer 40 years
assault with a wepon 15 plus ever you would get for assault and so on
Just to make it interesting make it like a federal Crime to use a firearm and if needs be set up federal Prison even federal Judges too get rid of these soft cock magistrates.
But it will never happen in Australia
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Title_II » 07 Apr 2016, 12:47 am

Reduce it to what rate? You say there is a problem, what is the goal?

Actions and measures are not goals. State the goal.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by pomemax » 07 Apr 2016, 1:03 am

Title_II wrote:Reduce it to what rate? You say there is a problem, what is the goal?

Actions and measures are not goals. State the goal.

thats Easy too zero tolarance on gun crime = zero gun crime
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Title_II » 07 Apr 2016, 1:26 am

That will never happen.

Pick an actual goal. A number. Don't just propose laws, that's assbackwards. Without a goal, random actions usually accomplish little to nothing.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by happyhunter » 07 Apr 2016, 7:00 am

Crimes involving guns have been on the decline for decades. The illegal drug trade and poverty are the biggest cuases of crimes, including crimes where guns are used. Legalise drugs and reduce poverty are the obvious solutions and would dramatically decrease most types of crime.

Secondly, The OP is showing why he is really here. Agitator.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Title_II » 07 Apr 2016, 8:17 am

happyhunter wrote:Crimes involving guns have been on the decline for decades. The illegal drug trade and poverty are the biggest cuases of crimes, including crimes where guns are used. Legalise drugs and reduce poverty are the obvious solutions and would dramatically decrease most types of crime.

Secondly, The OP is showing why he is really here. Agitator.


No matter how low crime becomes in Australia, people will show up saying they have to reduce it. It will involve punishing both legal citizens and criminals, "criminals" including law abiding citizens that just got swept up in the law for arbitrary reasons. I know in the USA, generally speaking, only law abiding citizens are convicted of "gun crimes." Several years in jail for a mistake. Rob a liquor store with a gun and the gun charges are the first thing to go away, you do a few months in jail instead.

It will NEVER be enough for the people that want to take your rights. Australia could have the lowest crime rate of any nation on Earth, and they will still come back and want to pass more laws that do nothing.

Australia's murder rate is very, very low. Yet somehow it's a "problem" that requires the government to come after everyone. It will never end.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by adam » 07 Apr 2016, 9:46 am

Title_II wrote:Reduce it to what rate? You say there is a problem, what is the goal?

Actions and measures are not goals. State the goal.


That's a fair point: My goal is simple, and that is to get the focus onto the real problem - criminals, and away from pointless tasks that won't do any good, but only harm LFO's.

At present the way I see it criminals are mostly getting a free run. Because GCA, the Greens and JH (from herein refered to as Gungrabbers) are too busy targeting us and fighting with us, and we're too busy defending ourselves and targeting them. The criminals are left with little to no attention on them to continue as they want.

There's another problem. People who have been affected by gun crime, or are concerned about gun crime only see one group of people that are trying to do anything about it - the gun grabbers. They have no option to back anyone else, so by default they fall into the gun grabbers hands.

When they look at LFO's they see us as a problem - in part because we're seen to show little concern about the crime, and more concern about our rights. They see us as the enemy because we're unsympathetic towards their concerns and fight them at every turn, and we offer no alternative to them. We're seen as only wanting to stop or hinder them.

I've had a chat to a number of people who are concerned about gun crime. I believe if they had another option or organisation to back that had better ideas many would. But there is no alternative option?

So my thought is to see whether or not there are other options. Who knows - maybe even an opportunity to create another group. One that isn't based on ignorance, emotion and other agenda's, but one that can come up with effective measures that will not hurt LFO's doing the right thing but have significant impact against crime. One that can see the concerns of those worried about gun crime, and at the same time also see the concerns about LFO's and come up with campaigns that help everyone involved.

This would help those wanting to target guncrime without having to back the gungrabbers. This would help LFO's not only by getting the target off our backs, but also hopefully dealing far harsher with those who would break into our houses and steel our firearms. And hopefully this would help have an impact into gun crime as well. (Or at the very least stop some of those scumbags from reoffending).

But to get there first we need to have better solutions to put forward.

At present, we're simply fighting amongst each other. Give the gun grabbers a different enemy to go after, and the solutions. (Let's face it, at present they're too ignorant, emotional, etc to see outside of targeting LFO's with their agenda to help themselves)... so instead of fighting them, why not steer them in a different direction.

It's far easier to change the direction of a moving object than it is to stop and reverse it...
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 07 Apr 2016, 10:53 am

Putting all the political nonsense to the side....

I will qualify what follows by stating I have zero interest in drugs and classify those who use, whether recreationally (whatever that means)as severely laking in substance of life and judgement....

However, I firmly believe that the only way to reduce (with the view to removing as far as practically possible) ALL VIOLENT crime from our society; is to regulate the trade in all chemical substances identified as those used/traded/manufactured in the drug trade.

By Regulation I mean the controlled manufacture distribution and TAXATION......

It would remain an offence to use or be intoxicated in public, to steal, to assault etc..... so do it in the privacy of some place with a product that is quality controlled and taxed......

Is this a ridiculous idea? maybe, I know the first response by the hypnotised masses will be "...you can't legalise drugs society will implode..think of the children"..... well, theyve be illegal until now, and hows that experiment going??

We've got to a point where hospitals are calling for separate emergency rooms for ice users! not to mention the violence attributed ust to this one group of substances....
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Title_II » 07 Apr 2016, 12:24 pm

Still no goal. Which country's crime rates do you wish to match? What is the goal?

Stop proposing government oppression simply for the sake of it. That makes no sense.

I'll try to bow out now, since I am a guest and don't want to push my thoughts on you. But give it a quick thought.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by adam » 07 Apr 2016, 1:55 pm

Title_II wrote:Still no goal. Which country's crime rates do you wish to match? What is the goal?


Getting people's focus and aim away from targeting LFO's and onto real crime, as well as getting police resources redirected in a better way is my goal. I have no crime rates of which to match.

I'm not proposing government oppression. I'm proposing that resources and focus that's already there is turned away from those who are already doing the right thing - and towards those who have the intent of doing wrong. Redirect the heat somewhere more positive. And to do that we need good solid ideas of how to achieve that.

There are always going to be people who want a goal to be passionate and emotional about. They want to protest. They want their voice heard. When they "solve" one, they move onto the next. For many at the moment it's guns (or more precise - being anti-guns). You will never stop them from being passionate about it. You will never shut them up, until they have what they want, and even then they won't stop - they'll want more. What might be possible however is redirect that passion in a better suited direction, and for those who won't because they're so hard headed, at least we'd have alternative for others to follow who are concerned, so the dead head gun grabbers are not leaders anymore for all others to follow.

There are a number of historic battles won against the statistics - because people thought laterally... differently - not just with figures. If not winning their enemies over, at least getting their enemies to fight their own battles for them, instead of against them.

As you can tell - I'm not overly keen on goals set with numbers. At the moment our government has a goal of zero for the road toll. That's right - the slogan is "Zero is possible". Fines (over $100USD) for doing just 2mph over the limit - once again targeting citizens trying to do the right thing because it's easier to do (and in that case it raises revenue) instead of trying to address the real problem drivers. Why - because they're chasing and focused on figures - statistics which can be measured instead of the bigger picture, and the money.

I don't believe all goals need to have a statistical target figure. :)
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Gwion » 08 Apr 2016, 8:23 am

adam wrote:Getting people's focus and aim away from targeting LFO's and onto real crime, as well as getting police resources redirected in a better way is my goal. I have no crime rates of which to match.

I'm not proposing government oppression. I'm proposing that resources and focus that's already there is turned away from those who are already doing the right thing - and towards those who have the intent of doing wrong. Redirect the heat somewhere more positive. And to do that we need good solid ideas of how to achieve that.


Right behind you there, Adam. Lawful Firearms Owners, in my view (and i've stated this countless times before), need to change their public perception through open displays of concern and condemnation about gun crime and the misuse of firearms. With a proactive approach to tackling these issues, there will be greater chance of firearms owners retaining and clawing back more freedoms.

All these racial, political and idealogical slurs and insults that get bandied about in public do nothing good for the image of LFOs. An interest or passion about firearms or outdoor life styles are not predisposed by racial, political or socio-ecomomic/geographic boundaries. Those slinging epithets and slurs in a generalistic manner are actually doing the cause of firearms freedoms in Australia great harm and, in my view' may as well be working for the "ANTIs"; if they aren't already.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 08 Apr 2016, 8:29 am

Title_II wrote:Still no goal. Which country's crime rates do you wish to match? What is the goal?

Stop proposing government oppression simply for the sake of it. That makes no sense.

I'll try to bow out now, since I am a guest and don't want to push my thoughts on you. But give it a quick thought.


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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by happyhunter » 08 Apr 2016, 8:55 am

Title_II wrote:
It will NEVER be enough for the people that want to take your rights. Australia could have the lowest crime rate of any nation on Earth, and they will still come back and want to pass more laws that do nothing.

Australia's murder rate is very, very low. Yet somehow it's a "problem" that requires the government to come after everyone. It will never end.


Australia's rate of voilent crime is very low. Corporate crime and government corruption are at a high. Australia is a haven for organised crime to launder money made from the drugs and illegal weapons trade. This situation suits the government and lines the pockets of polititions. Why would government do anything effectual about crime when the individuals voted into government benefit from the proceeds of crime?
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by adam » 08 Apr 2016, 9:03 am

Gwion wrote:Right behind you there, Adam. Lawful Firearms Owners, in my view (and i've stated this countless times before), need to change their public perception through open displays of concern and condemnation about gun crime and the misuse of firearms. With a proactive approach to tackling these issues, there will be greater chance of firearms owners retaining and clawing back more freedoms.

All these racial, political and idealogical slurs and insults that get bandied about in public do nothing good for the image of LFOs. An interest or passion about firearms or outdoor life styles are not predisposed by racial, political or socio-ecomomic/geographic boundaries. Those slinging epithets and slurs in a generalistic manner are actually doing the cause of firearms freedoms in Australia great harm and, in my view' may as well be working for the "ANTIs"; if they aren't already.



Why didn't you start the thread Gwion - you word and explain things so much better (and using much less words) than I do. :)

Your post summarises exactly my concerns.
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Re: Think Tank: How can we reduce gun crime?

Post by Harts » 21 Apr 2016, 9:12 am

Reduce all crime by less cops sitting on their asses in parked cars taking pictures of people going 3km over the speed limit.

Have them get out there and do literally anything else...
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