knife attack / shooting - westfield Hornsby

[<<Genesis93>>]

Splashed all over the news earlier was this 'knife attack' with a guy apparently running amuck on a stabbing frenzy, 4 people injures by this loon...

hours later it starts emerging;

The guys has a kitchen knife however news reports the 'weapon' as the object in the photo;

Although I believe the photo is the remnants of the Ambo's work, with them leaving the bloodied bandage scissors behind;

As the 'weapon' looks suspiciously like;


AND to top this ridiculous piece of incompetent reportage off...
The injured 4 or 3?? victims turn out to have been SHOT by the COP!!!

The vision clearly show her shooting at the guy (cant see a weapon) with a crowd directly behind he target...

???

and shot 3 times and the guy is lucid and not too uncomfortable?? Was she using a starters pistol?

[Mr.Seacucumber]

What I don't understand is she fired her weapon to protect herself however in the process risk the lives of MULTIPLE bystanders in the process aswell as having less then lethal options available to her she could of easily of killed those four people and she should of been in the position to deal with the attacker without having to resort to deadly force.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I'm wondering if she thought ..... for a split second ... to let the army handle it. not really a laughing matter... but this is Martin Place again

and if you note on the vision, the guy appears to have been not running at the cop, but aiming to run past her....

Either way, another eff up c/o the popo

[darwindingo]

Wow, when I was carrying (not in a police capacity) we were always told that that such an action (namely, discharging a firearm) was only acceptable, after all other means had been exhausted (including running for a distance if required) and that even then only if it posed "no danger" to innocent persons.. As far as the media goes, its generally report first, and then start reporting some of the facts later. . Got the big breaking story though....

If only the general public could be trusted with a taser, then problem solved.. huh

Also just read something to the effect of, the decision needs to be made in a fraction of a second. While I agree that is a fair statement, the case remains in my view that It does not offer an acceptable excuse if the decision is made to advance to lethal force without exploring other options first, or in error. Certainly not if it endangers the very people that are one is to be supposedly be protecting fron such a danger . A mate in the SF community once said that "its a requirement of the job to be able to make the right decision before pulling the trigger", perhaps the police need to up the standard, regarding testing each individuals decision making in that regard prior to handing out such a significant responsibility.......

Check the law and then ask some officers you meet, under what specific section of the act that they can resort to lethal force, you may be shocked at the many blank stares you get ? I'm not anymore!!!! Well I'm still shocked but the level of surprise has long since dwindled....

Jeff

[on_one_wheel]

It's about time we gave police the resources they need to train.

It's no good giving them a side arm a d expect them to perform with it on minimum range time, they should be shooting weekly at least, not just 25m targets but full tactical on the run Rambo style shot.

Or perhaps take their guns away and leave it up to the swat teams if proper training isn't an option.

[tom604]

the cop running away was not an option, the nut case could of stabbed an old lady/kid, and the nutter ran at the cop it was only when she put one into him that he veered away,not that easy to shoot/aim a pistol in a split second with the amount of training they get. it was a large knife or similar that he had and he had just got out of the loony bin a week or so ago,perhaps blame the health system

[Title_II]

In the US, cops are notoriously bad and reckless shooters. Concealed carriers almost never hit a bystander, I can't even remember one. Cops do it all the time. Two cops attacked a guy in New York City a couple years ago and shot 9 bystanders. To shoot one guy. Most city cops "qualify" once a year and don't shot other than that. A trainer discussed stories of them not being able to pull their guns because they were in the holster for so many months in mixed weather that the mechanisms were frozen shut, or watching them draw their guns and coins and lint flying out. They are also constantly shooting themselves or leaving their guns in bathrooms. You take 10 cops to the range in the US and 9 civilians that happened to be there by chance will each beat 9 of those cops, one being the exception on both sides. Many of them have been starting to take it more seriously in recent years. When I have been to defensive handgun training there is usually a cop there taking the course.

[<<Genesis93>>]

the cop running away was not an option, the nut case could of stabbed an old lady/kid, and the nutter ran at the cop it was only when she put one into him that he veered away,not that easy to shoot/aim a pistol in a split second with the amount of training they get. it was a large knife or similar that he had and he had just got out of the loony bin a week or so ago,perhaps blame the health system

but did he run AT the cop, or was he running past the cop, I know there are so many what ifs etc....but what if the cop side stepped, backed away??

Interesting theyre NOW showing the wider shot with the scissors AND a knife...wasnt the knife there previously??

Yes, she was defending herself....apparently, but in doing so she shot how many people...is her life invaluable? that shooting a total of 4 people is justifiable?? Lets see what comes of this...

The sad thing is that this 'event' will go down in history, and be referred to forever and a day as one of those 'mass shootings' that the tards relentlessly refer to as justification for more 'civilian' gun control laws.... the police can have their guns as they are more trustworthy and responsible - oh hang on....

This will be swept under the proverbial carpet quicker than you can say 'yes union defends its members to the through thick and thin right or wrong'

[happyhunter]

..and more
http://www.theage.com.au/nsw/knifeman-s ... pffsx.html

"It will be alleged that the man approached the police with the large carving knife," Assistant Commissioner Clifford said.

"The officers each fired shots at the offender. He was wounded several times. Unfortunately some bystanders were also injured with either bullet or fragment wounds and, all up, we have four people who have been injured in gunfire."

The three bystanders are all female, aged between 60 and 80, and in hospital in a stable condition.

The report doesn't mention anybody was threatened. It just states an escaped mental patient was reported to be carrying a knife and approached police. WTF is "fragment wound.." and how do you get hit by one? Are they talking about over penetration or bullet fragmentation? Without going into the nitty gritty, the cops should know what type of projectile to use.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I'm honestly disgusted the presstitutes are STILL referring to this as a 'SHOOTING'... lawful owners across this land 'shiver' when they read such headlines, as it invariably precedes the predictable calls, c/o the Green and GCA and associated hangers-on of tighter gun laws and the brainless face-achers who provide the oxygen to such oxygen thieves.

Yes, it was a 'shooting'....but that was the response to the guy in public carrying a knife(or scissors?) so really it is a 'POLICE SHOOTING' but that wont push their barrow as well...

[happyhunter]

the cop running away was not an option, the nut case could of stabbed an old lady/kid, and the nutter ran at the cop it was only when she put one into him that he veered away,not that easy to shoot/aim a pistol in a split second with the amount of training they get. it was a large knife or similar that he had and he had just got out of the loony bin a week or so ago,perhaps blame the health system

but did he run AT the cop, or was he running past the cop, I know there are so many what ifs etc....but what if the cop side stepped, backed away??

Interesting theyre NOW showing the wider shot with the scissors AND a knife...wasnt the knife there previously??

Yes, she was defending herself....apparently, but in doing so she shot how many people...is her life invaluable? that shooting a total of 4 people is justifiable?? Lets see what comes of this...

The sad thing is that this 'event' will go down in history, and be referred to forever and a day as one of those 'mass shootings' that the tards relentlessly refer to as justification for more 'civilian' gun control laws.... the police can have their guns as they are more trustworthy and responsible - oh hang on....

This will be swept under the proverbial carpet quicker than you can say 'yes union defends its members to the through thick and thin right or wrong'

Pure speculation, but quite possibly suicide by cop. Remember, there are no reports of people being attacked. The psych patient approached the police, with a knife and we all know how that usually ends.

[on_one_wheel]

"WTF is "fragment wound.." and how do you get hit by one? Are they talking about over penetration or bullet fragmentation? Without going into the nitty gritty, the cops should know what type of projectile to use."

The projectile probably hit something hard and fragmented.

[AusTac]

Kind of annoying how a cop is given a firearm for the purpose of protecting themselves, which lets face it they have a greater chance of being in danger daily, ( is a officers life more valuble than a civillians life? ) but then in the act of protecting themselves shoots the very people that shes employed to protect,

You'd think that police officers would have at least qualified to a good standard in the use of their service firearm.

i suppose more training is needed?

[happyhunter]

The projectile probably hit something hard and fragmented.

By the display of markmanship (or lack of) I'd say there was a second shooter, hiding near a grassy knoll, the bullet passing through the first old lady then hitting the baymarree of the hotdog stand, thenthe bullets fragmentation wound stricking the second old lady then, as it passed through her hand bag, it was defleted by her pension card into the third old lady.

Obviously, there is a government conspiracy to solve the ageing population problem, one police shooting at a time. Somebody call the Xfiles.

[Supaduke]

At the risk of copping flak, it is easy to make judgement calls post incident. I worked in a security role for quite a few years where I carried.

A few points for your consideration. The known effective radius for a knife is around 20ft. Use of tasers and pepper spray will generally put you within that 20ft radius. Neither options are always instantly effective. Thus opening you to the possibility of being stabbed.

The police more than likely had no information about the offenders mental issues. He was reportly shouting "allahu ahkbar", which would certainly spark fears of possible suicide bombing or similar terrorist event. It was a public area so they had no choice but to contain the situation wherever he was located. Love or loath cops, they have the right to go home safely. The peanut with the knife created the situation. Mental issues or not.

True life and death situations affect people differently. Some are cool and calm, some panic, some simply freeze up and do nothing at all. Whatever the reaction, more often than not it will cloud judgement and create tunnel vision, no matter how trained or experienced a cop is.

Certainly I believe cops need more training in firearms. The security industry used exactly the same training as police. You requalify once a year and that was all that is required. Any extra practice or training was off your own bat.

Was it a clean shoot? No, they rarely are. The bystanders being injured is unfortunate. What were the cop's real options though, to a knife wielding assailant in a crowded area that would not comply. Let him go? Talk him down?

Just food for thought.

[Supaduke]

The projectile probably hit something hard and fragmented.

By the display of markmanship (or lack of) I'd say there was a second shooter, hiding near a grassy knoll, the bullet passing through the first old lady then hitting the baymarree of the hotdog stand, thenthe bullets fragmentation wound stricking the second old lady then, as it passed through her hand bag, it was defleted by her pension card into the third old lady.

Obviously, there is a government conspiracy to solve the ageing population problem, one police shooting at a time. Somebody call the Xfiles.

And this made me laugh, then I could feel the satellites reading my brainwaves so I popped my tinfoil hat on, can't be too careful

[<<Genesis93>>]

The projectile probably hit something hard and fragmented.

By the display of markmanship (or lack of) I'd say there was a second shooter, hiding near a grassy knoll, the bullet passing through the first old lady then hitting the baymarree of the hotdog stand, thenthe bullets fragmentation wound stricking the second old lady then, as it passed through her hand bag, it was defleted by her pension card into the third old lady.

Obviously, there is a government conspiracy to solve the ageing population problem, one police shooting at a time. Somebody call the Xfiles.

Oh goooood you're right... may have inadvertently ricocheted off a water melon... or perhaps one of those notoriously un-naturally ripened tomatoes, split into a dozen pieces before downing half the crowd...

Perhaps all the shots (may have been 2 cops actually doing the magazine emptying) hit the perps knife, straight on thence turning into explosive shrapnel...

[Mick280]

I feel a bit sorry for the young officer involved if the level of training involved I've observed is indicative statewide!!!
Our local range is booked for about an hour once a month and from what I've seen they could do with a bloody lot more range time!!!
Targets end up looking like they've been hit with a load of SG's !!!
Mick.

[Wylie27]

Have a look at the shoot again. Look at the offenders back when he turns.. There is no exit wound.

No richocet it was a miss...

[happyhunter]

I dunno man.. poor markmanship does my head in. I can't believe that with all the money the government gives L.E that they don't train their people to shoot properly when under duress.

[AusTac]

It'll all go to the traffic department on all the latest gadgets like the ' textalizer ' thing lol

[Supaduke]

I dunno man.. poor markmanship does my head in. I can't believe that with all the money the government gives L.E that they don't train their people to shoot properly when under duress.

The problem is recreating that duress in a training exercise. As a side note on training look up the SAS encounter at the Iranian embassy in the 80's. Those guys do nothing but train, yet many mistakes were made when they made entry.

The only way you can get experience is through real life events. Hence combat veterans are cold as ice, yet rookies, no matter how intensive their training are still rookies until 'baptised by fire' as it were. Not to mention that sort of intensive training for the entire police force would be prohibitively expensive.

I saw a similar thing in the security industry. Bouncing, cash escort, personal protection. Some people just 'have it' , others are all talk and go to water when real pressure is applied. Cops are no different, some are good , some are just bullies in it for the power trip, some are just misguided souls trying to make a difference. Having the right stuff in a real pressure situation is not always something you can teach.

[<<Genesis93>>]

If an individual doesnt have what it takes under pressure..... well then, whether theyre a woman or a bloke, maybe they should re-assess their job suitability., before someone else does.

So is she on sick leave job site trauma or something similar yet???

[Supaduke]

If an individual doesnt have what it takes under pressure..... well then, whether theyre a woman or a bloke, maybe they should re-assess their job suitability., before someone else does.

So is she on sick leave job site trauma or something similar yet???

Again, can be hard to weed that out. There are various phych tests and fitness tests that she obviously passed. Training is only about 33 weeks and a lot of that is law. Most people , you just can't tell how they will react until the excrement hits the rotating cooling device.

[darwindingo]

I agree that replicating "Under Duress" is difficult to achieve. But I do think its worth trying to maintaining vigorous ongoing training and assessment, I agree it would come at a considerable $ expense. However, Could anyone argue that it would not constitute a $ well spent ? Even if it only ever saved one innocent life, then its well worth every cent that could be directed to it in my opinion. Cost should not be a factor in such circumstances.....

Force on force training is pretty good, yes it's not the real deal, but its a pretty good indicator from what I have seen.. It could at least help in the assessment of an individuals ability to make such decisions, I mean if they cant demonstrate a reasonable ability in a simulated environment, then its probably safe to say that they will likely not perform desirably in an actual "Under Duress" situation.. ? Yes, its true there are some things that cannot be taught, but there are always some things that can be learned while trying to find that out..

Jeff

[on_one_wheel]

I'm only going to make one more comment on this one.

Over the years I've missed the occasional sitter, general under pressure due to limited time to take the shot or a mate saying " shoot shoot shoot ! quick quick quick ! " or just plain adrenalin when something unusal presents itself unexpectedly.... nobody's perfect.

But one thing has never failed to happen regardless of the situational pressure ... I ALWAYS ask myself before my finger touches the trigger " What's behind the target? Am I shooting over the horizon? Is it safe to shoot ?

[darwindingo]

[tom604]

If an individual doesnt have what it takes under pressure..... well then, whether theyre a woman or a bloke, maybe they should re-assess their job suitability., before someone else does.

So is she on sick leave job site trauma or something similar yet???

jeez not much give in you is there you do realise that it might of been her first time under that type of stress and she may give the cops away but she may come out of it stronger put yourself in her situation, called out to a nutter with a knife who then runs at you, you shoot the nutter, one miss two hits?. then you get people second guessing you and saying that you should of done this or that,,, you know , the things that could of got you hurt,, like letting said nutter get close to you with said knife and saying things like,,well, if ya cant hack it?? if it was me, i would of shot the guy and felt bad about shooting the old ladies but i would feel worse if i was in the hospital.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Sorry, but you dont get a 'do over' when you're talking about discharging your firearm in public and potentially killing innocent bystanders while 'protecting yourself'...just as we've seen... there's really no room for 'maybe I'll do better next time' - eff that idea...

If I'm allowing the peace officers to carry firearms - by golly gosh they'd better be fully trained before hitting the streets.

[AusTac]

Dosen't matter, you only shot on innocent civillian, you'll do better next time good job