knife attack / shooting - westfield Hornsby

[Wylie27]

Have a look at the shoot again. Look at the offenders back when he turns.. There is no exit wound.

No richocet it was a miss...

[happyhunter]

I dunno man.. poor markmanship does my head in. I can't believe that with all the money the government gives L.E that they don't train their people to shoot properly when under duress.

[AusTac]

It'll all go to the traffic department on all the latest gadgets like the ' textalizer ' thing lol

[Supaduke]

I dunno man.. poor markmanship does my head in. I can't believe that with all the money the government gives L.E that they don't train their people to shoot properly when under duress.

The problem is recreating that duress in a training exercise. As a side note on training look up the SAS encounter at the Iranian embassy in the 80's. Those guys do nothing but train, yet many mistakes were made when they made entry.

The only way you can get experience is through real life events. Hence combat veterans are cold as ice, yet rookies, no matter how intensive their training are still rookies until 'baptised by fire' as it were. Not to mention that sort of intensive training for the entire police force would be prohibitively expensive.

I saw a similar thing in the security industry. Bouncing, cash escort, personal protection. Some people just 'have it' , others are all talk and go to water when real pressure is applied. Cops are no different, some are good , some are just bullies in it for the power trip, some are just misguided souls trying to make a difference. Having the right stuff in a real pressure situation is not always something you can teach.

[<<Genesis93>>]

If an individual doesnt have what it takes under pressure..... well then, whether theyre a woman or a bloke, maybe they should re-assess their job suitability., before someone else does.

So is she on sick leave job site trauma or something similar yet???

[Supaduke]

If an individual doesnt have what it takes under pressure..... well then, whether theyre a woman or a bloke, maybe they should re-assess their job suitability., before someone else does.

So is she on sick leave job site trauma or something similar yet???

Again, can be hard to weed that out. There are various phych tests and fitness tests that she obviously passed. Training is only about 33 weeks and a lot of that is law. Most people , you just can't tell how they will react until the excrement hits the rotating cooling device.

[darwindingo]

I agree that replicating "Under Duress" is difficult to achieve. But I do think its worth trying to maintaining vigorous ongoing training and assessment, I agree it would come at a considerable $ expense. However, Could anyone argue that it would not constitute a $ well spent ? Even if it only ever saved one innocent life, then its well worth every cent that could be directed to it in my opinion. Cost should not be a factor in such circumstances.....

Force on force training is pretty good, yes it's not the real deal, but its a pretty good indicator from what I have seen.. It could at least help in the assessment of an individuals ability to make such decisions, I mean if they cant demonstrate a reasonable ability in a simulated environment, then its probably safe to say that they will likely not perform desirably in an actual "Under Duress" situation.. ? Yes, its true there are some things that cannot be taught, but there are always some things that can be learned while trying to find that out..

Jeff

[on_one_wheel]

I'm only going to make one more comment on this one.

Over the years I've missed the occasional sitter, general under pressure due to limited time to take the shot or a mate saying " shoot shoot shoot ! quick quick quick ! " or just plain adrenalin when something unusal presents itself unexpectedly.... nobody's perfect.

But one thing has never failed to happen regardless of the situational pressure ... I ALWAYS ask myself before my finger touches the trigger " What's behind the target? Am I shooting over the horizon? Is it safe to shoot ?

[darwindingo]

[tom604]

If an individual doesnt have what it takes under pressure..... well then, whether theyre a woman or a bloke, maybe they should re-assess their job suitability., before someone else does.

So is she on sick leave job site trauma or something similar yet???

jeez not much give in you is there you do realise that it might of been her first time under that type of stress and she may give the cops away but she may come out of it stronger put yourself in her situation, called out to a nutter with a knife who then runs at you, you shoot the nutter, one miss two hits?. then you get people second guessing you and saying that you should of done this or that,,, you know , the things that could of got you hurt,, like letting said nutter get close to you with said knife and saying things like,,well, if ya cant hack it?? if it was me, i would of shot the guy and felt bad about shooting the old ladies but i would feel worse if i was in the hospital.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Sorry, but you dont get a 'do over' when you're talking about discharging your firearm in public and potentially killing innocent bystanders while 'protecting yourself'...just as we've seen... there's really no room for 'maybe I'll do better next time' - eff that idea...

If I'm allowing the peace officers to carry firearms - by golly gosh they'd better be fully trained before hitting the streets.

[AusTac]

Dosen't matter, you only shot on innocent civillian, you'll do better next time good job

[tom604]

training costs money, being holier than thou/soap box is cheap, but ill shut up now maybe

[darwindingo]

Not trying to start a fight, or attempting to slam you Tom604. So I honestly hope its is not taken as such, I'm just attempting to put myself in a theoretical position, in the way that you suggested to "G93".. that's all.....

In saying that,

I'd bet I'd feel a hell of a lot worse than I would, ending up in hospital or even dead for that matter from a stab wound, if a stray round I fired had of ended up hitting a baby in the head or something like that. Thankfully that didn't happened in this case. But I'm just saying.. ? How would you feel if that was the outcome?
I certainly don't blame her (its a tough call given the situation and time-frame at hand), however the standard of training is something worth further examination as to its suitability, in my opinion though...

So please don't go you are equally entitled to express your opinions and views as the rest of us.



Jeff

[Spudman75]

There is video available. Watch it. The cop panicked and shot into the crowd rather than the bad guy. Poor marksmanship and stupidity. She had a tazer on her belt too but pulled the gun.

[tom604]

all true but what if you were killed? instead of the baby? how would your "family" feel ? plus you have to live to feel? all the training in the world and still sh*t would happen it just annoys me with the she should do this or that and if she couldn't then she's useless ,,and don't worry i have a thick skin normally i dont comment on these topics anyway just on my soapbox

[darwindingo]

I'm glad your still here Tom604, I just got off the phone with my folks, they actually said that they would be devastated, but also proud if I made such a sacrifice in the circumstance (I'm actually pleased that they feel that way).. I can certainly accept that things examined in hindsight, generally seem quite simple in comparison to the time that they occur, particularly under the circumstance of duress..!

However I still maintain my opinion that regardless the cost, the level of training and assessment could be improved upon, for the protection and benefit of all concerned. That's all..



Jeff

[Baronvonrort]

The Police wounded 4 women and killed one with the Lindt siege when they knew there was a single offender with a beard.
3 people were wounded yesterday while trying to shoot a single male who chanted Allahu Akbar.

She was supposed to shoot centre torso she wasn't following her limited training.

[Title_II]

The Police wounded 4 women and killed one with the Lindt siege when they knew there was a single offender with a beard.
3 people were wounded yesterday while trying to shoot a single male who chanted Allahu Akbar.

She was supposed to shoot centre torso she wasn't following her limited training.

To clarify, you don't aim for the center like the circles on the silhouette targets suggest. That is for combat. In defensive shootings, you draw a triangle between the two nipples (I actually have 5 LOL) and the bottom of the Adam's apple and aim for the center of the triangle. All kinds of good stuff up in there.

That's for handgun. If you are blasting with a .303 with soft points or an AR then it probably doesn't matter much.

[bluerob]

The Police wounded 4 women and killed one with the Lindt siege when they knew there was a single offender with a beard.
3 people were wounded yesterday while trying to shoot a single male who chanted Allahu Akbar.

She was supposed to shoot centre torso she wasn't following her limited training.

To clarify, you don't aim for the center like the circles on the silhouette targets suggest. That is for combat. In defensive shootings, you draw a triangle between the two nipples (I actually have 5 LOL) and the bottom of the Adam's apple and aim for the center of the triangle. All kinds of good stuff up in there.

That's for handgun. If you are blasting with a .303 with soft points or an AR then it probably doesn't matter much.

I wouldn't be telling too many people that you have 5 nipples, otherwise, when the "burning at the stake starts," you'll be 1st in line.

[tom604]

I wouldn't be telling too many people that you have 5 nipples, otherwise, when the "burning at the stake starts," you'll be 1st in line.

i knew a bloke with five dicks,,,his pants fitted him like a glove sorry bit of a dad joke that one

[Title_II]

LOL, yeah, I'm a freak of nature. I'm sure you know that minor extra nipples are not extremely rare, but I got more than my fair share. And, that's amusing, because there was time they considered it a sign of the devil or something.

[happyhunter]

The plot thinckens..

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/man-who-rescu ... pgmzv.html

As the officer shot at Mr Sourian three times, three women standing around Alan suddenly dropped to the ground.

3 for 3.. not bad except she hit the wrong tragets.

His family also disputed reports in other media that Mr Sourian was heard yelling "Allahu Akbar" and rambling in Arabic before the shooting, saying he was a devout Catholic who couldn't speak a word of Arabic.

If you read the report the patient was already well aquainted with the two police officers.

Fairfax Media understands the male and female police officer who shot at Mr Sourian knew him personally because they frequently drop patients off at Hornsby Hospital's mental health unit, where Mr Sourian had been an involuntary patient.

[Supaduke]

Could be a government conspiracy to reduce the burden of pensioners on government revenues.......

[sandgroperbill]

Definitely need to improve training. Maybe police should also train in IPSC or similar? Perhaps also train team on team with airwoft or paint ball, hell, even laser tag?

Now, I ask, who here has ever pulled the trigger without first checking behind, above, either side or in front of target? No? Me either.

Now for what really annoys me:

I'm just gonna ask, and yeah yeah, geneva convention and all that, but when are the police going to realise that fmj is not the correct choice in situations where there may be bystanders?

Fmj ricochets, passes through, etc, not wise anywhere there may be collateral damage.

Yes, I understand that fmj means there is a greater chance for survival for the person being fired at, but IMHO, better them than an innocent bystander.

[bluerob]

LOL, yeah, I'm a freak of nature. I'm sure you know that minor extra nipples are not extremely rare, but I got more than my fair share. And, that's amusing, because there was time they considered it a sign of the devil or something.

Mate, there are some that believe that "your extra accessories" shows strong psychic abilities.

Any tips on any upcoming lotteries or....?

[bluerob]

Definitely need to improve training. Maybe police should also train in IPSC or similar? Perhaps also train team on team with airwoft or paint ball, hell, even laser tag?

Now, I ask, who here has ever pulled the trigger without first checking behind, above, either side or in front of target? No? Me either.

Now for what really annoys me:

I'm just gonna ask, and yeah yeah, geneva convention and all that, but when are the police going to realise that fmj is not the correct choice in situations where there may be bystanders?

Fmj ricochets, passes through, etc, not wise anywhere there may be collateral damage.

Yes, I understand that fmj means there is a greater chance for survival for the person being fired at, but IMHO, better them than an innocent bystander.

I think you'll find that Police are issued with JHP ammo and not FMJ's. FMJ's are military issue only.....

The cost of training is the major issue according to my pal. Sometimes the specialist units train with simuntion, but, having 4500 people shoot 1000 rounds per month would amount to a fair bit of $$$ being spent.

I reckon Police officers should be encouraged to join a pistol club, whether that be service or IPSC type shoots.

At least they'll have some time behind a handgun. I've seen new recruits drop the handgun after firing it - "gee, I didn't think it'd kick as much." That was in a range, with earmuffs on. Imagine the racket of a .40 barking in a shopping mall.

[valkyrie]

Not to mention that the .40sw is a weak ass cartridge. Very very easy to shoot very well. It came about because the fbi werent happy with the qualification scores that their agents were getting with the much much hotter 10mm round. So sw shortened the case and downloaded it till it shoots easier than a 9mm to bring their scores up.


Then they got in a few shootouts with it and realised it was s**t at neutralising targets so they went back to 9mm. Having completely ruined 10mm for everyone else lol

[happyhunter]

haha.. classic thread.

Getting cops to shoot ISPC won't solve the problem. It will possibly make it worse.

When people are faced in a high danger/stress scenario, they experience sensory overload, hence the 'spray and pray' reaction. They also revert to the first thing they learned when being taught to shoot so it is important that they are instructed correctly the first time they fire a weapon. That's called primacy in learning. They only way to overcome sensory overload is 'over learning' so the right action becomes instinct without thinking and the only way to achieve that is to training, training, training in realistic as possible simulations.

This applies to any dangerous activity, not just shootings.

[Title_II]

Definitely need to improve training. Maybe police should also train in IPSC or similar? Perhaps also train team on team with airwoft or paint ball, hell, even laser tag?

Now, I ask, who here has ever pulled the trigger without first checking behind, above, either side or in front of target? No? Me either.

I wasn't there. But if it's a crowded area and you decide you must intervene, you charge the target and either shoot them at extremely close range or you take a knee and shoot upward at them so you don't hit anyone. It's not ideal because you may not have cover and you lose mobility, but that's the way it's done.

Usually, if someone is waving a gun around, the place clears out pretty fast and the only people remaining on both sides of the fight have guns.