U.S.A's worst mass shooting leaves 50 dead

[wimpb]

Doesn't really matter who he was or what he identified as to the media. They'll say he was just a crazy guy and the guns are the problem. That's the narrative they're painting. It really doesn't matter. If he was gay, he did it because homophobia made him crazy closeted and he went nuts. If he did it because of Islam then the media will say that it was Islamophobia and that he went nuts. Once they can establish he was crazy they'll say it's too easy to get firearms, that's their whole angle. They really do not care about the details at all.

[happyhunter]

A detailed report on the shooters life that does not blame guns as the problem.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando- ... pjooz.html

Orlando: This is where the investigative road divides spectacularly: was Orlando gunman Omar Mateen driven by a love of Islamic State, or by a deep sense of self-loathing – possibly triggered by an awareness that he was gay?

[<<Genesis93>>]

Eye witness accounts - those inside the club are claiming "someone held the door closed" preventing the escape from inside while the shooting took place......

hmmmm..... maybe there's more to the current narrative...

[Pennsylvania Yank]

A detailed report on the shooters life that does not blame guns as the problem.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando- ... pjooz.html

Orlando: This is where the investigative road divides spectacularly: was Orlando gunman Omar Mateen driven by a love of Islamic State, or by a deep sense of self-loathing – possibly triggered by an awareness that he was gay?

Islam is entirely woven into the shooter and his family's actions. This is the guy whos school classmates remember him celebrating on 9/11 after seeing the twin towers go down when he was 14 years old. His wife is now known to have been involved in some way. She is seen on camera purchasing ammunition for him and drove to the shooting location with him to scout. His Father hosts an anti-american radio show and is now his son's biggest apologist it seems. The shooter called 911 to proclaim his allegence to ISIS because he was allied with ISIS. Whether he was self loathing or not is quite irrelevent. By all accounts we see yet another Muslim who is seemingly living the American dream and working a very good job but who is still bitter and angry and wanting to murder innocent people because his religion compels him to do it and he brings down his entire family with him.. It's Fort Hood and San Bernadino all over again. Also more importantly, the authorities have known all about him and his issues with co-workers and his associations with known terrorists for years but let him slip out of their grasp solely because of Political correctness.

[brett1868]

I think it's probably a combination of several factors coming together climaxing in a violent outburst. His hate of himself, his religious beliefs, family pressure all combined to form a mental illness of sorts. When it's all done and dusted, he was a sick bastard that's thankfully now dead. He's paid the ultimate price for his crimes, lets hope they bury him at sea next to Osama. America took in this family, educated them, gave them a future and freedom and this is how they are repaid? I don't know how the FBI got it so wrong with this person.

[happyhunter]

A detailed report on the shooters life that does not blame guns as the problem.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando- ... pjooz.html

Orlando: This is where the investigative road divides spectacularly: was Orlando gunman Omar Mateen driven by a love of Islamic State, or by a deep sense of self-loathing – possibly triggered by an awareness that he was gay?

Islam is entirely woven into the shooter and his family's actions. This is the guy whos school classmates remember him celebrating on 9/11 after seeing the twin towers go down when he was 14 years old. His wife is now known to have been involved in some way. She is seen on camera purchasing ammunition for him and drove to the shooting location with him to scout. His Father hosts an anti-american radio show and is now his son's biggest apologist it seems. The shooter called 911 to proclaim his allegence to ISIS because he was allied with ISIS. Whether he was self loathing or not is quite irrelevent. By all accounts we see yet another Muslim who is seemingly living the American dream and working a very good job but who is still bitter and angry and wanting to murder innocent people because his religion compels him to do it and he brings down his entire family with him.. It's Fort Hood and San Bernadino all over again. Also more importantly, the authorities have known all about him and his issues with co-workers and his associations with known terrorists for years but let him slip out of their grasp solely because of Political correctness.

Religion was just the mask. It was something the shooter falsely identified with to hide the truth about what really drove him to such an irrational action. The truth is he could not face the reality of his own sexuality. Blaming religion, in this case, is like blaming the AR15 rifle which is exactly what the gun contrl freaks do. The fact he used an AR is coincidental. The real issue and real cause is mental illness.

Saying that, I'm no apologist for islam. IMO it has no place in western society. All I'm saying is in the case of Orlando the shooters religion is coincidental.

[adam]

Gee... it must be frustrating being a terrorist. A summary of what I've seen the last couple of decades seems to be:

Terrorists: The reason we're doing this is because of xxxxx

The West: We don't understand....... why do they keep doing this - still can't figure out why....

<rinse and repeat>

[Baronvonrort]

His classmates said he celebrated 9/11, his wife said they checked out Disney World and another Disney venue noting they had security with metal detectors, this attack took place in a gun free zone.

Here is a moderate muslim journalist Tarek Fatah who has no doubt this was another case of Islamic terror, I like muslims like Tarek and Dr Zuhdi Jasser from the American Islamic forum for democracy they are honest.
http://www.twitter.com/tarekfatah

Here is Rita Panahi an Australian ex muslim from Iran , I like how she pointed out it went unchallenged on the ABC Drum when a muslim said Sharia law is about mercy and kindness.
13 countries with Islam as the state religion have the death penalty for apostasy (atheism), 10 countries with Islam as the state religion have the death penalty for homosexuals, is that an example of the kindness and mercy from Sharia law?
http://www.twitter.com/RitaPanahi

The Liberal Democrats appear to be taking advice from ex muslim women with Islam which is a good thing, Islam is an ideology a set of beliefs that guide life for muslims the truth is the best weapon against ancient beliefs.

[Pennsylvania Yank]

A detailed report on the shooters life that does not blame guns as the problem.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando- ... pjooz.html

Orlando: This is where the investigative road divides spectacularly: was Orlando gunman Omar Mateen driven by a love of Islamic State, or by a deep sense of self-loathing – possibly triggered by an awareness that he was gay?

Islam is entirely woven into the shooter and his family's actions. This is the guy whos school classmates remember him celebrating on 9/11 after seeing the twin towers go down when he was 14 years old. His wife is now known to have been involved in some way. She is seen on camera purchasing ammunition for him and drove to the shooting location with him to scout. His Father hosts an anti-american radio show and is now his son's biggest apologist it seems. The shooter called 911 to proclaim his allegence to ISIS because he was allied with ISIS. Whether he was self loathing or not is quite irrelevent. By all accounts we see yet another Muslim who is seemingly living the American dream and working a very good job but who is still bitter and angry and wanting to murder innocent people because his religion compels him to do it and he brings down his entire family with him.. It's Fort Hood and San Bernadino all over again. Also more importantly, the authorities have known all about him and his issues with co-workers and his associations with known terrorists for years but let him slip out of their grasp solely because of Political correctness.

Religion was just the mask. It was something the shooter falsely identified with to hide the truth about what really drove him to such an irrational action. The truth is he could not face the reality of his own sexuality. Blaming religion, in this case, is like blaming the AR15 rifle which is exactly what the gun contrl freaks do. The fact he used an AR is coincidental. The real issue and real cause is mental illness.

Saying that, I'm no apologist for islam. IMO it has no place in western society. All I'm saying is in the case of Orlando the shooters religion is coincidental.

No, actually blaming it on mental illness has no basis in reality. Experts have already stated that it would be extremely difficult for a mentally ill person to hold a steady job in security for 9 years and pull off such an attack. There are mountains of evidence that he was driven by his religion to commit this act. He has been a radical Muslim since at least age 14, probably radicalized by his father first. His father is also a radical anti-american muslim. The apple didn't fall far from the tree at all.

This terrorist's rejected application for a police academy also contained his admission that he had used marijuana and steroids. This guy had extreme anger issues and radical religious views but he was not mentally ill. He knew how to play the system as well, to such an extent that media is now reporting that the conclusion of an FBI investigation of his workplace outbursts had actually blamed his co-workers for being religious bigots after they spoke out against him.

The claims that he was a homosexual are also hearsay. He could have been there and conversing with them to gain trust so he could have better ability to murder them. Even if he were a homosexual and had a huge problem dealing with it emotionally, the worst that would have happened to a non-muslim in the same situation is that he would have likely committed suicide, but never mass murder. There is also evidence that he and his wife were previously casing Disney World as a possible target.

You are correct though. Islam has no place in Western Democracy and Civilization. And that is not a broad sweeping generalization. That is borne out by the facts on the ground for the past 700+ years.

[<<Genesis93>>]

It's NOT mental illness??
The guy walks into a place and shoots 49 or 50 people, and he's totally mentally stable, sane and rational?

Religion or not, you need to be unhinged to a degree not often encountered to do that, for your brain to 'convince' your muscles to go through the act...

If he was gay and had trouble dealing with it, yes, he might commit suicide... what better way he obviously thought than to take dozen, maybe a couple hundred even, with him on his SUICIDE MISSION...

It helps when you believe your host has destroyed your homeland....is against your religion... as his father no doubt drilled into him along with the reminder of the death sentence for gays...

Lets not forget why we, Australia and the USA have had distinct waves of migration from various nations, hint it wasnt from being too generous with our music exports.....Vietnam, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, not to mention a half dozen or so African nations, of course the most recent foreign escapades we will have the glorious cultural enrichment from thousands of Syrians, of course the moderate-extremists ones, not the other type, the extremist-moderates. We know we will get the least dangerous type, because they will be asked on their way here, whether theyre the good type or not..... all good

So if Labor gets in, what will the Syrian cultural enrichment program be extended to from the 12,000 current figure - 20,000? 50,000? I'm so excited, I cant wait for the next generation of homegrown jihadis and for the 'Lebanese criminal gangs' to be replaced by the 'Syrian crime gangs'.... and for the western suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne to be declared a caliphate.....yay for diversity.

All the while our leader declares we're safe.... are continues on a tighter gun laws path...

[adam]

The problem with the definition of mental illness is that it's as fluid as you want it to be.

Case in point: Nazi Germany - only 50 years ago... murdering women and children en masses in concentration camps.

Someone questioning the mental condition of someone who walks into a place and kill ~50 people - would they give the Nazi's in concentration camps or those who gave the orders the same benefit of the doubt with their mental condition? There were millions of women & children murdered... ?

Never underestimate the commitment of someone to fight for their ideology cause - whether it be religious or otherwise (such as in WW2).

[<<Genesis93>>]

The problem with the definition of mental illness is that it's as fluid as you want it to be.

Case in point: Nazi Germany - only 50 years ago... murdering women and children en masses in concentration camps.

Someone questioning the mental condition of someone who walks into a place and kill ~50 people - would they give the Nazi's in concentration camps or those who gave the orders the same benefit of the doubt with their mental condition? There were millions of women & children murdered... ?

Never underestimate the commitment of someone to fight for their ideology cause - whether it be religious or otherwise (such as in WW2).

Which particular NAZIs are you talking about? The Soviet ones? (Hitler died 71yrs ago)...
How many millions? Do you have a number? (one thats not from wiki) Just curious...

The Germans were fighting for their people, their nation and they were Christians. Although their stated enemy was NOT christian, the other Christian nations went to war against them....(at the behest of the same non-Christian enemy)
Their religious leaders didn't teach them to strap explosives to themselves, or go into a public or other place and take as many with you on your way to meet stacks of virgins for your eternal prize...

This is mental;


As are the governments who allow them into our land, as are the various lobby and interest group who encourage the policy, including;

[adam]

Sorry - I got the timing wrong... I'm older than I want to admit.

But yes - Germany. And I was talking about the death camps which murdered masses of innocent women and children.

Are you saying that all muslims who believe that non-muslims should die have mental illness... because my question is about the definition of what is considered mental illness... Many islamists believe that you have mental illness for not believing in their God and that it's mercy to kill you...

And if you believe the truth is relative... who's right and who's wrong?

I think anyone who is willing to murder could be called mentally ill - but that's an opinion as to what defines mental illness... and that itself has changed within the western medical journals significantly over the last half century itself...

So my point still stands - the term mentally ill is useless here as it's too biased by each persons opinion.

[Oldbloke]

All though I do not have an issue with any religion including Islam or christianity, I think all religion is bull sit. There is no after life. IMHO people who are religious fear their own mortalty. They want to believe in an after life.

I believe in ashes to ashes & dust to dust, literally that is how we all end up.

PS Religions have been the cause of many wars. But it is always the lunatic fring that cause them.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I hear you oldbloke.... but I can tell you that after decades of indoctrination, church going, god fearing and god fear, rejecting of religion...Ive realised that the most dangerous religion is trying to convince YOU and I.... that YOUR religion is not worth maintaining a belief in.... when you say 'religions' ... its actually one specific religion that has caused ALL wars.... and its not Christianity, neither Islam.

The Islamic 'problem the west is currently afflicted with is a by-product, a result....

[happyhunter]

No, actually blaming it on mental illness has no basis in reality. Experts have already stated that it would be extremely difficult for a mentally ill person to hold a steady job in security for 9 years and pull off such an attack.

Not sure where you got that from but there are many mental illnesses where the sufferer is functional as far as working life while their personal life is in turmoil. A person who in their own disordered mind rationalizes the killing of 50 innocent people is not processing reality correctly and that is a mental disorder.

Someone questioning the mental condition of someone who walks into a place and kill ~50 people - would they give the Nazi's in concentration camps or those who gave the orders the same benefit of the doubt with their mental condition? There were millions of women & children murdered... ?

It only takes one disordered individual to whip up mass hysteria. History proves that point. Religious cults and mass suicides like Jonestown are a prime example. If you think you make all your own decisions in life think again. If a leader create fear in the community he can control their thinking.

[happyhunter]

All though I do not have an issue with any religion including Islam or christianity, I think all religion is bull sit. There is no after life. IMHO people who are religious fear their own mortalty. They want to believe in an after life.

I believe in ashes to ashes & dust to dust, literally that is how we all end up.

PS Religions have been the cause of many wars. But it is always the lunatic fring that cause them.

I'm neither religious nor atheist nor agnostic. Religion is nonsense so I why validate it with an opposing view?.. but I disagree that religion has been the cause of any war. Wars might have been fought in the name of religion, but the underlying cause is power and greed.

[Oldbloke]

"power and greed." Yep, that too. As mentioned earlier, religion is often just an excuse, not the reason.

Come to think of it on the lighter side. If all rhe greedy pricks, religions and political parties disapeared tomorrow the world would be like a giant hippy camp. Just love, sex, flowers and magic mushrooms.

[tom604]

the mind set to be able to kill a heap of people, be they jews ,gays or whoever is to dehumanise them, make them like animals or even less than that,
and old bloke,,,no mushrooms,they are bad

[<<Genesis93>>]

anyhoo.....

This guy, sane and rational or not, went to a gunshop and was refused service as the shop owner was sus about his questions and his phone call reportedly in Arabic (not the the language should incriminate anyone on its own, but in context this point is significant).....

He went elsewhere, PASSED the background check and he's (and she's!!) off.....[Yes, Mr pretend 'professor' Alpers, Background checks for longarms too, contrary to what nonsense you spout on Radio National]

So the FBI had investigated the guy twice in recent years.... as well as receiving a call/concern/tip off from the first store owner!!

If I was not cynically I'd say they (FBI, the Feds generally) dropped the ball....

But considering the hundreds of Billions?? spent on creating a total surveillance state, that doesnt end at their borders... the apparent vigilance with regard to preventing and disrupting Terrorist activity....

......Otherwise, I'd say theres a lot more to this story. Another mass gun killing may be, how do I put this without seeming insensitive..... 'convenient'.

[Pennsylvania Yank]

A person who in their own disordered mind rationalizes the killing of 50 innocent people is not processing reality correctly and that is a mental disorder..

He was able to rationalize his murderous act because of the very mainstream(relatively speaking) modern teachings of Islam that he embraced. So unless you're willing to claim that all murderous muslims are mentally ill, your theory simply does not hold water. Their ultimate goal is to spread worldwide Sharia Law by whatever means necessary. That's not called mental illness, that's called a plan.

[Baronvonrort]

The Daily Mail is reporting the Orlando offender sold his home to his brother in law for $100 two months ago.

[Member-Deleted]

He was able to rationalize his murderous act because of the very mainstream(relatively speaking) modern teachings of Islam that he embraced. So unless you're willing to claim that all murderous muslims are mentally ill, your theory simply does not hold water. Their ultimate goal is to spread worldwide Sharia Law by whatever means necessary. That's not called mental illness, that's called a plan.[/quote]

[Baronvonrort]

Article by Arab Humanists on Orlando

www.arabhumanists.org/arab-reaction-orlando-depressing

[wimpb]

I think it's funny how whenever an islamic terrorist guns down a bunch of people or detonates a bomb the problem is only "radical islam" and guns. Not all muslims are like that.

Well ok, if we're happy to say not all muslims are like that, how come we never hear the media say "not all gun owners are like that".


Also I don't really want to keep derailing into a religion debate, but I feel I must point out that atheist attempts to destroy religion have killed far more people than all the religious wars in history (unless you count a war/genocide to stamp out religion as a religious war). It's not even in the same ballpark. Add up all the dead from the crusades, jihads, whatever you like. Communist/proto-communist attempts to stamp out religion have killed way more. I suppose it's because the almighty state demands that no one worship anything but itself.

[bluerob]

Come to think of it on the lighter side. If all rhe greedy pricks, religions and political parties disapeared tomorrow the world would be like a giant hippy camp. Just love, sex, flowers and magic mushrooms.

And no PTA'S required!

[brett1868]

News released 2hrs ago...The shooters gay lover has come forward and states the attack was motivated by revenge for being exposed to HIV during a 3-some. Apparently he had a thing for Latino men and the shooting was revenge for having felt "Used". He specifically targeted Latino Gay men....He's no terrorist, just a gay man seeking revenge. An argument could be made that homosexuality was the root cause....lets see the tards in parliament try and ban that!!!

[happyhunter]

News released 2hrs ago...The shooters gay lover has come forward and states the attack was motivated by revenge for being exposed to HIV during a 3-some. Apparently he had a thing for Latino men and the shooting was revenge for having felt "Used". He specifically targeted Latino Gay men....He's no terrorist, just a gay man seeking revenge. An argument could be made that homosexuality was the root cause....lets see the tards in parliament try and ban that!!!

Yeah, nothing surprising about any of the news that is 'coming out' (pun intended)
http://www.theage.com.au/world/orlando- ... pppzg.html

He claimed Mateen had engaged in sex with two Puerto Rican men, one of whom he later discovered was HIV positive, and that he became "terrified". The man suggested that Mateen had also experienced rejection at the hands of gay Latinos: "He hated gay Puerto Ricans for all the stuff they did to him. I believe this crazy horrible thing he did was for revenge. When I asked him what he was going to do now, his answer was, 'I'm going to make them pay for what they did to me'."

[Baronvonrort]

Happyhunter,

Are you saying we should ignore the confessions of the offender who like Monis said he represented the Islamic state while doing Islamic terror and take the word of a poof who wasn't there and had nothing to do with it for what motivated him?

Afghans and gay sex is nothing new, look up 'Bacha Bazi'

[on_one_wheel]

I've only got one question about Islam.

If Islam is a religion of peace, why aren't extremists extremely peaceful?