Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

[Title_II]

It would look and sound like the Fourth of July turned horizontal. And I would be on here asking for donations to my spackle fund provided my house didn't burn down.

[bladeracer]

and the most ridiculous comment of the new year goes to you champ;

And I do not agree that firearms are a target for criminals

Not yet?? doesnt happen?? The 'real hard crims' will source their guns from anywhere, but they know that pump and semi auto shotgun and centrefire are RARELY seen in the average gun cabinet, if theyre lucky handguns are found. But when they do come knocking... they DO and indeed HAVE held the family at gunpoint...there were a couple of connected armed home invasions a few yrs back in VIC(iirc) where a couple of families were held up at home, forced to open gun cabinet, said to be related via pistol club....this has happened several (many?) times around the country.

Thanks for the award, but I'm guessing there was only the one vote?
Do you have any evidence that A/B class firearms are specifically targeted by criminals for nefarious purposes? Most stolen firearms are A/B cat longarms grabbed because they were there, not because they were the target of the burglary. And then sold to unlicenced people, but very rarely for criminal purposes. In '05/'06 only four registered firearms were used to commit homicides - hardly an epidemic is it? Some of those "homicides" may have been within criminal circles anyway, and probably would've occurred even if they hadn't had a firearm to hand.

Yes, a handful of times. It's hardly arming the thousands of criminals is it. And even less likely for A/B cat firearms. It proves my point, that criminals, even desperate ones find it easier to simply buy imported firearms than try to steal them by force.

Perpetuating the crap that criminals are stealing legally-owned firearms to use against innocent people just helps the anti-gunners and does nothing to protect shooters from media garbage - and that should definitely win you an award from GCA.

[sbd3927]

The 'real hard crims' will source their guns from anywhere,

There's even the metropolitan delivery service... handguns have been taken from police. Two I know of, an ambush in Melb around 20 years ago, another local incident few years ago where a driver was pulled up 3-4 times in the same day, ended in fatality of both parties. There's bound to be more instances of police sourced firearms, I wonder how the numbers compare with the number of domestic thefts. I wonder why that number wasn't tabled in parliament last year...

[SteamedHam]

I reckon they put the privacy statement that's on the bottom of the letter just to troll us.

[bladeracer]

I reckon they put the privacy statement that's on the bottom of the letter just to troll us.

Yeah, I didn't believe that bit for a second

[<<Genesis93>>]

I never suggested agreement with the anti's line of " legal guns feeding the illegal gun trade" , such that the MAJORITY of illegal guns started off as legal and were diverted by the color market (white/gray/black nonsense)....

And i never suggested they were necessarily used in the commission of crimes after theft, facts are: 1- guns are stolen, 2-crims steal those guns.

It is however just ridiculous to suggest what you did - that crims do not target legal guns, always have - always will. Whether its 1 or 10000guns.


Now stop looking for an argument here, and argue with the DELWP who sent YOUR details where they shouldnt have gone, YOU now have to trust that the recipients of YOUR address wont forward on the file to someone with those nefarious plans...

[<<Genesis93>>]

Interesting that only the ABC has reported this, online at least....if it was any other interest group other than shooters, it would have saturated the news lines...

[bladeracer]

I never suggested agreement with the anti's line of " legal guns feeding the illegal gun trade" , such that the MAJORITY of illegal guns started off as legal and were diverted by the color market (white/gray/black nonsense)....

And i never suggested they were necessarily used in the commission of crimes after theft, facts are: 1- guns are stolen, 2-crims steal those guns.

It is however just ridiculous to suggest what you did - that crims do not target legal guns, always have - always will. Whether its 1 or 10000guns.


Now stop looking for an argument here, and argue with the DELWP who sent YOUR details where they shouldnt have gone, YOU now have to trust that the recipients of YOUR address wont forward on the file to someone with those nefarious plans...

I agree with you, like everything else we own, guns do get stolen. And by definition, they are stolen by criminals.
But I do not agree that criminals are specifically targeting firearms to any great degree. A handful may be earning some money by stealing A/B cat firearms to on-sell to unlicenced people, but it can hardly be called a significant problem compared to how much of our stuff is being stolen in general.
The Kennards job was clearly targeting firearms, and probably fairly organised, but not at all "common". I wait to hear more about the people that were busted with those firearms yesterday to see what their plans were, or if they even had any plans for them.

I will be writing to DELWP of course. But I will also refute comments like yours that have no real basis and merely make life harder for all firearms owners.

[<<Genesis93>>]

righteo.

[Oldbloke]

This is to some an emotional topic. Stay cool.

[bladeracer]

This is to some an emotional topic. Stay cool.

I'm cool
As I said, I don't feel any greater risk of being targeted than I already had.

I'd be slightly more concerned about the potential leak if I lived in a town or city though.

[Oldbloke]

Interesting that only the ABC has reported this, online at least....if it was any other interest group other than shooters, it would have saturated the news lines...

Good point. General media will twist it against us next week.

[doc]

But I do not agree that criminals are specifically targeting firearms to any great degree.

The average crim is wanting jewelry, cash, and other things to move to feed their drug habit, so if you're talking the average crim - I could agree with you in part.

However - I think you've missed the bigger picture. Criminals are opportunistic.

Most crims aren't going into houses looking for bars of gold either. However if a list of names and addresses of houses that were storing bars of gold were released - I could imagine that crims that would never otherwise target those houses would start to - because they now have information available to them.

And here lies the problems. Firearms are no different. Crims who have had the intel have targetted firearm owners houses in the past. As has already been mentioned - dealer registration books have been stolen. Why? Those books have no value - except for criminals who want information on where differnet types of firearms are located.

Tracking someone from a club is a long process - you may be noticed on the drive home. Numerous lights that you'd have to get right, if the car merges into another lane just before an exit that you miss, etc. There's a lot that could go wrong meaning that numerous attempts might need to be made before you found a single house. Worth the effort? For most no, but maybe for a couple yes.

However - given a shopping list with a few thousands names and addresses in it - and it simplifies the process and more importantly opens up a lot more opportunities. And criminals being opportunists - it completely changes the ball game.

[doc]

Interesting that only the ABC has reported this, online at least....if it was any other interest group other than shooters, it would have saturated the news lines...

Yes - I checked the news yesterday too, to see if it would be mentioned. My presumptions about the media are continuing to be proven correct.

[bladeracer]

But I do not agree that criminals are specifically targeting firearms to any great degree.

The average crim is wanting jewelry, cash, and other things to move to feed their drug habit, so if you're talking the average crim - I could agree with you in part.

However - I think you've missed the bigger picture. Criminals are opportunistic.

Most crims aren't going into houses looking for bars of gold either. However if a list of names and addresses of houses that were storing bars of gold were released - I could imagine that crims that would never otherwise target those houses would start to - because they now have information available to them.

And here lies the problems. Firearms are no different. Crims who have had the intel have targetted firearm owners houses in the past. As has already been mentioned - dealer registration books have been stolen. Why? Those books have no value - except for criminals who want information on where differnet types of firearms are located.

Tracking someone from a club is a long process - you may be noticed on the drive home. Numerous lights that you'd have to get right, if the car merges into another lane just before an exit that you miss, etc. There's a lot that could go wrong meaning that numerous attempts might need to be made before you found a single house. Worth the effort? For most no, but maybe for a couple yes.

However - given a shopping list with a few thousands names and addresses in it - and it simplifies the process and more importantly opens up a lot more opportunities. And criminals being opportunists - it completely changes the ball game.

I specifically stated that criminals steal firearms if they find them rather than targeting them specifically - how does that "miss the big picture"? Even when they find a gun safe it's rare that they ever bother trying to open it. They know that they can make some money if they can get those firearms out, but the incentive is just not there for the vast majority of thieves to bother wasting any time on it.

I'm not denying that firearms get stolen. But the number of firearms that get stolen is so small, compared to other items that get stolen, as to be virtually negligible.
One of GCA's biggest claims has always been that we legal firearms owners are indirectly arming criminals by not securing our firearms against theft. The almost zero usage of stolen legally-owned firearms being recovered from crimes by Police proves that GCA are lying, and as shooters we need to ensure that this is made clear all the time in the eyes of the public. Not only because it is untrue, but because it undermines the credibility of GCA, which is far more important.
Shooters that push GCA's views are not helping gun owners at all and are undermining our own efforts to combat the ridiculous onuses forced upon us.
I have not seen any evidence _at all_ anywhere to support the view that criminals specifically target gun owners generally to any great degree. I agree that a _very_ small number of instances do occur where specific types of firearms are deliberately targeted by criminals - principally modern handguns, and Cat C/D class firearms, which are a very small percentage of Australian gun owners.

Queensland released figures recently of firearm theft but I can't find it just now - the number is tiny by any measure, except that of GCA who consider even a single stolen firearm sufficient to warrant placing greater restrictions on every Australian gun owner.

Here's one link indicating "more than 6000 firearms stolen across Australia in a two-year period." Many from rural areas, meaning I'm already "targeted" by thieves wanting Cat A/B firearms without requiring any list of my details.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/more-than-6000-firearms-stolen-across-australia-in-a-twoyear-period-new-figures-show-20161129-gt08fv.html

3000 per annum out of how many millions of firearms?
And how many of them are recovered from _criminal_ activity?
If they are not being used in criminal activity, then the only victim is the gun owner, and perhaps his insurance company. It has zero significance to society in general, and nothing at all to do with restricting legal ownership of firearms.

Or this one:
http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi230.pdf
"A total of 25,171 firearms were reported stolen to police in Australia between
1994 and 2000. This equates to an average of about 12 firearms reported
stolen per day. The majority of firearms reported stolen are rifles (51%),
followed by shotguns (21%) and handguns (14%). Most firearms are reported
stolen from a residential premise (81%). Currently there are over two million
registered firearms in Australia and, annually, less than one per cent are
reported stolen to police. This means that, on average, over 4,000 legal
firearms are stolen annually in Australia and, most importantly, there is the
possibility that at least some of these are being transferred into the illegitimate
firearms market."

That's 4195 firearms stolen per annum "or less than one per cent", yes that is a hell of a lot less than one per cent of the then current two-million firearms.
That's 2139 rifles (how many of those are air rifles and .22's?), 881 shotguns (I'm sure the vast majority being break-action singles and doubles), and 587 handguns (how many air-pistols, .22's and single-action revolvers I wonder?). The remaining 14% must be things that are classed as firearms but are not, like replicas, de-act's, antiques, toys and the like.

How many of those firearms do you believe were deliberately targeted?

Stop legitimising GCA's stance by propagating their bulls**t agenda.

EDIT: my poor maths - I'm assuming that '94-'00 is only six financial years, not seven actual years.

Another link, done by our side:
http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Legal_and_Constitutional_Affairs/Illicit_firearms/~/media/Committees/legcon_ctte/Illicit_firearms/d01.pdf

[YoungBuck]

I've not received a letter regarding this, how do I know if I am affected?

[bladeracer]

I've not received a letter regarding this, how do I know if I am affected?

I got a letter saying I was involved, Genesis93 got a letter saying he was not.

Have you had any transaction with DELWP?

I'm half expecting Police wanting to inspect my security just in case we are likely to be targeted from this, but I reckon they put as much value in this threat as I do, none

Maybe try emailing DELWP and your district firearms officer and ask them to find out.

[Oldbloke]

" I'm half expecting Police wanting to inspect my security just in case we are likely to be targeted from this, but I reckon they put as much value in this threat as I do, none "

They might just inspect those that have not had one for a while and on the list. They would have limits due to manning is my expectation.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I did not receive a letter;
I telephoned LRD who suggested I call DELWP, which I did.
Then the bloke named on Blades letter eventually called back and advised my details were NOT 'leaked'
This seems to have occurred before 13 Jan, when the letters were sent out....if you havent received a letter - you are probably not part of the security/privacy breach.

[Oldbloke]

Should be a public apology. But that would further publicise the stuff up. I got a renewal, so expecting a letter when I get home.

[happyhunter]

.

[bladeracer]

I'll just say as a person who has some understanding of computer technology and the network, losing that data in the network is really, really bad. You can almost be sure copies of that data are now stored somewhere it should not..

I absolutely agree with you, this is no minor lapse by any measure.

It's the potential result to those of us affected by it that I think is being blown out of proportion - in my own opinion of course.

[doc]

I specifically stated that criminals steal firearms if they find them rather than targeting them specifically - how does that "miss the big picture"?

The picture that you're missing is criminals who will go looking specifically for them if they have details on names and addresses.

Without these - yes - the risk is much smaller... it's if they find them as you state. But it's if the criminal has a list of information on where they are stored, that changes the picture. It creates opportunities where criminals that specifically target firearms.

You seem to be worried that by admitting this we give GCA ammunition against us so want to be in denial. Well - take away the registries, and I'd agree with you - but while we have a history of places been targeted after police inspections, books stolen from dealers and now this cluster with the emails I believe that this is something that needs to be rectified.

At the very least - dealer registration books should be changed to include make, model serial, and LFO's license number in them - nothing that directly leads to anyone being able to identify the address. (ie - eliminate name and address completely), but even then - this will not stop other mistakes such as what we've witnessed here.

[bladeracer]

The picture that you're missing is criminals who will go looking specifically for them if they have details on names and addresses.

Without these - yes - the risk is much smaller... it's if they find them as you state. But it's if the criminal has a list of information on where they are stored, that changes the picture. It creates opportunities where criminals that specifically target firearms.

You seem to be worried that by admitting this we give GCA ammunition against us so want to be in denial. Well - take away the registries, and I'd agree with you - but while we have a history of places been targeted after police inspections, books stolen from dealers and now this cluster with the emails I believe that this is something that needs to be rectified.

At the very least - dealer registration books should be changed to include make, model serial, and LFO's license number in them - nothing that directly leads to anyone being able to identify the address. (ie - eliminate name and address completely), but even then - this will not stop other mistakes such as what we've witnessed here.

I haven't missed it at all, I just don't agree with you that enough criminals target A/B class firearms to consider myself at any greater risk.
Not at all. I'm not in denial of a problem that does not exist. Do you have any evidence that criminals deliberately target firearms to any significant degree?
The occasional instances we know about are insignificant.
We know that 3000-odd firearms are stolen every year. We know that the very vast majority are stolen during burglaries simply because they are found easily accessible. I think we can also safely assume that the majority of these firearms are .22's and break-action shotguns, and very few of them are of any interest to criminals at all. I would think that _at most_ we are concerned about a few hundred firearms actually winding up in the hands of criminals that might have any interest at all in using them, at least enough interest to warrant the risk of firearms charges. But we also know that only a very tiny number of these stolen legally-owned firearms are ever recovered from criminals, even when not used criminally.
So even if we accept the view that thieves are specifically targeting our firearms, where are they ending up?
My view, from my own experience, is that they merely end up being owned by otherwise law-abiding people that either can't get a licence or refuse to be a part of the system - but never do any harm to anybody with these firearms. I also contend that such people do not pay huge amounts of money for such firearms, thus why would thieves choose to specifically target them?

I agree with you about firearm registration and records. The system is nothing but a rort to employ a bunch of Police officers and bureaucrats on the basis of public safety. Police are against us having firearms due to "workplace health and safety" concerns. How often do officers come up against legally-owned firearms that it could be considered a significant threat to their safety? The premise is ludicrous.

I have no problem with licencing firearms owners, but I can't see any value in going any further than that. All "public safety" requires is that unacceptable people don't have legal access to firearms. The rest of us should be allowed to choose whatever recreational sports and hobbies we're interested in without intervention from the government.

I would really like to see somebody do some analysis of firearms owners and trends in other offences within society. I reckon we can show that legally owning firearms is beneficial to society generally. For example, I recently read that people who had been involved in Boy Scouts and Girl Guides during their formative years tended to have significantly less mental illness risk in later life.

[doc]

Fair point. You're right... apart from information that has been acted on when criminals have had access to information I have no other information about them specifically targeting us.

I would imagine that criminals take the easiest road, which for the most part I suspect would be the black market, illegal imports, etc.

This would change when they have information directly available to them that lists certain firearms that are of interest to them (aka dealer's books etc). Like you - I'm not too worried about the average breakin - but if my details were released to unknowns my concerns would up significantly. (One of the reasons I don't publish my real name and address on this forum for instance )

[Gwion]

While this is an appalling breech of private information; isn't it just lists of Game Licence Holders?

As such, many of those affected may not even own a firearm......?????

Just trying to understand it but it seems like it really is not a shopping list of who owns what and where........

[bladeracer]

While this is an appalling breech of private information; isn't it just lists of Game Licence Holders?

As such, many of those affected may not even own a firearm......?????

Just trying to understand it but it seems like it really is not a shopping list of who owns what and where........

It lists our licence "category" apparently, so yes, it would indicate who has firearms of Cat A/B, C or D. And I expect it probably also lists H class if a shooter also owns handguns.
No, I do not believe it lists our firearms or calibers, although a deer licence would indicate at least one .243 or bigger.

[<<Genesis93>>]

The game licence could be Stalking / hounds / birds / junior. .... etc
It would be safe to assume most, even hound cat would own firearms at the licensees address....

[happyhunter]

.

[bladeracer]

Any firearm has value in the criminal world. If you believe .22 and break shotguns have no value I can understand that belief but that is because you may be isolated from the reality of what happens to a stolen firearm.

It's true that the majority of stolen guns are rarely found to be used in a crime. There are reasons for that, the main being most crimes go unsolved and the guns are mostly used to stand over other criminals so the crime is never reported.

And you believe that the value of our .22's and shotties is so great as to make firearms owners specific targets for these criminals?