Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by happyhunter » 19 Jan 2017, 10:06 am

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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 19 Jan 2017, 10:28 am

this is f***ing infuriating.
called LRD;
"first call we've received, its not us, its the DELP (insert swooshing handball sound)

Calls DELP/GMA
"Our manager will call you back, when's a convenient time for a call back?"
ME "ASAFP...."

f***ing bulls**t.
The police have the nerve to say they take privacy super important.... then I remind him the countless hardcopy lists maintained around the state...
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 19 Jan 2017, 10:29 am

So this is game licence holder info.... 7800 licensees... I think thats about a quarter?? of all in the state!!
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Blackened » 19 Jan 2017, 10:34 am

Gun ownership doesn't work the same in practice here, Title_II.

License holders are required to have their guns locked away and ammunition stored separately when not in use (and 'storage' here means a locked safe, not just reaching into a cupboard etc.)

We're not allowed to store loaded firearms, and we're not allowed to have them on hand for the purposes of self defence.

I've no doubt your point is true, many thieves would avoid targets where they think a resident is armed to defend themselves.

That scenario is virtually non-existent here in Australia though.

Our registries record the personal details of each owner, and a list of every firearm they possess.

When these lists are compromised (as they have been multiple times before) they're effectively providing a shopping list for criminals.

Addresses of secluded properties, locations with multiple firearms, etc. etc. They can browse targets at their leisure.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Title_II » 19 Jan 2017, 1:31 pm

I understand. It is very different. I don't want to cross any cultural barriers with my good mates but I have to be honest and say it seems completely humiliating to me. It sounds like a totalitarian government that has no interest in the rights or safety of the individual.

I hope we don't all end up standing in toilet paper lines in 20 years :(
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jan 2017, 3:11 pm

Got my letter today...it took six days to travel less than 200kms from Melbourne.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by WhelanLad » 19 Jan 2017, 3:27 pm

cuvy wrote:If anyone receives a copy of the notification, can they please send me a copy (with their details blacked out, of course). Having dealt with data breaches before i'm very interested to see the contents of the notifications to affected people.



I got a letter in the mail today about this..
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Blackened » 19 Jan 2017, 3:38 pm

Dear valued customer


:roll:
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Gamerancher » 19 Jan 2017, 3:40 pm

Of coarse escalating it to "senior management" will fix the problem. I'd better get the shottie out for the masses of flying pigs.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 19 Jan 2017, 4:03 pm

Bladeracer... I was 'lucky' in that they came back to me with a "you're name is not involved..."
But you.... DON'T let this go, this is BS, the fact that there are files (spreadsheets?) 'doing the rounds' with lists of gun owners names/address/etc, shows the absolute contempt for the security of shooters... if thats how they treat our MOST strictly confidential information...thats not good enough. By far.

This 'data' is not lists of drivers licenses, most everyone has a car, its firearms, that ARE most definitely a target for the criminal element.

This yet again reinforces the FACT that there should be no compilation of firearm owners, other than perhaps a single list of firearm owners, or preferably a list of prohibited individuals who are NOT permitted to own/use firearms...

Come on SSAA, SFFP and other groups claiming to 'represent' LAFOs....Get the F%$# onto this
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by slickncghia » 19 Jan 2017, 4:11 pm

I have similar concerns about gun shops lists that they take when they register guns or sell powder. They usually open up the suer high security notebook and hand write down details on the front counter in full view of customers with the last couple of pages of owners clearly visible.

Worse if someone pinches the book...
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by happyhunter » 19 Jan 2017, 4:20 pm

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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 19 Jan 2017, 4:26 pm

Yup. Mentioned again today to LRD..... THEY say they maintain THEIR data impeccably, veeeerrrry secure :roll: ..... thats pretty much like pissing in the wind, as i described.... when there are so many hand written registers around the state, absolutely VULNERABLE.....
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Nick-J » 19 Jan 2017, 5:40 pm

You would be hoping for at least a few free years of game licences........
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jan 2017, 5:58 pm

<<Genesis93>> wrote:Bladeracer... I was 'lucky' in that they came back to me with a "you're name is not involved..."
But you.... DON'T let this go, this is BS, the fact that there are files (spreadsheets?) 'doing the rounds' with lists of gun owners names/address/etc, shows the absolute contempt for the security of shooters... if thats how they treat our MOST strictly confidential information...thats not good enough. By far.

This 'data' is not lists of drivers licenses, most everyone has a car, its firearms, that ARE most definitely a target for the criminal element.

This yet again reinforces the FACT that there should be no compilation of firearm owners, other than perhaps a single list of firearm owners, or preferably a list of prohibited individuals who are NOT permitted to own/use firearms...

Come on SSAA, SFFP and other groups claiming to 'represent' LAFOs....Get the F%$# onto this



In some rural areas I'd be surprised if less people own firearms than own cars. And I do not agree that firearms are a target for criminals, at least not criminals in the general sense. We know that stolen firearms rarely turn up in criminal activity, although a handful are recovered from criminals that don't use them criminally. I think stolen firearms tend to go to people that are prevented from legally owning firearms for various reasons, and those that simply disagree with the licencing and registration requirements (for obvious reasons) without any notion of ever using them to commit criminal acts against other people. The only "criminal" act many of these types are ever likely to commit is simple possession of an unlicenced and/or stolen firearm. The "outback" of NT, SA and WA is awash with unlicenced firearms and unlicenced shooters, that never do any harm to anybody. I've met people in remote areas that had never even heard of firearms licencing or registration, and many that have a vague awareness of it simply assume it only applies to "city people".

But licenced firearms owners are very seriously held to account for securing our firearms, and to high standards of social responsibility, and heavily punished for even minor lapses.

But, as with motorcycles, anybody that wants to steal firearms merely has to wait up the road from any gunshop or range, take down rego numbers and follow people home to find out where they live. This was happening at our pistol club in Perth, and several member's homes were burgled and handguns taken.

I'm unimpressed with their disregard of our privacy, and increasing our potential risk of being targeted. But I live on a farm, and anybody burgling rural properties is extremely likely to find plenty of gunsafes anyway, without needing a list - I only know of one person locally around me that does not currently own any firearms. Even on the slight chance that my details did fall into nefarious hands, I doubt I'm at any greater risk than I already was. The data includes our licence categories, and I doubt there is great demand for stolen A or B class firearms. I would be much more concerned if I had a C, D or H licence on top of the A/B, although I suspect not too many of those would be involved with DELWP.

And if real hard criminals really wanted legally-owned firearms they'd merely have to kick doors in and threaten the spouse or children until the owner hands them the keys to his safes, very simple for desperate people, but it just doesn't happen...at least, not yet. It's less risky for them to simply buy better firearms illegally imported for the purpose.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by cuvy » 20 Jan 2017, 7:41 am

Bladeracer - do you mind if I share the images you posted with people outside the forum?

bladeracer wrote:Got my letter today...it took six days to travel less than 200kms from Melbourne.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 20 Jan 2017, 8:35 am

The point is that there is little benefit to having a list of CAR owners to work from.. if your intentions are nefarious.

The crims obtain the guns from MANY sources, they come up with new ideas all the time, inside flower pots, in shipping containers, inside engine blocks was a recent one, via other criminal links, through the post in parts (200glock shipment example) and EVEN by stealing them from registered private safes in suburbia....

and the most ridiculous comment of the new year goes to you champ;
And I do not agree that firearms are a target for criminals



And if real hard criminals really wanted legally-owned firearms they'd merely have to kick doors in and threaten the spouse or children until the owner hands them the keys to his safes, very simple for desperate people, but it just doesn't happen...at least, not yet. It's less risky for them to simply buy better firearms illegally imported for the purpose.

Not yet?? doesnt happen?? The 'real hard crims' will source their guns from anywhere, but they know that pump and semi auto shotgun and centrefire are RARELY seen in the average gun cabinet, if theyre lucky handguns are found. But when they do come knocking... they DO and indeed HAVE held the family at gunpoint...there were a couple of connected armed home invasions a few yrs back in VIC(iirc) where a couple of families were held up at home, forced to open gun cabinet, said to be related via pistol club....this has happened several (many?) times around the country.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2017, 8:47 am

cuvy wrote:Bladeracer - do you mind if I share the images you posted with people outside the forum?

bladeracer wrote:Got my letter today...it took six days to travel less than 200kms from Melbourne.



Not at all, it's just a form letter :-)
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Title_II » 20 Jan 2017, 8:54 am

It would look and sound like the Fourth of July turned horizontal. And I would be on here asking for donations to my spackle fund provided my house didn't burn down.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2017, 8:59 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:and the most ridiculous comment of the new year goes to you champ;
And I do not agree that firearms are a target for criminals


Not yet?? doesnt happen?? The 'real hard crims' will source their guns from anywhere, but they know that pump and semi auto shotgun and centrefire are RARELY seen in the average gun cabinet, if theyre lucky handguns are found. But when they do come knocking... they DO and indeed HAVE held the family at gunpoint...there were a couple of connected armed home invasions a few yrs back in VIC(iirc) where a couple of families were held up at home, forced to open gun cabinet, said to be related via pistol club....this has happened several (many?) times around the country.


Thanks for the award, but I'm guessing there was only the one vote?
Do you have any evidence that A/B class firearms are specifically targeted by criminals for nefarious purposes? Most stolen firearms are A/B cat longarms grabbed because they were there, not because they were the target of the burglary. And then sold to unlicenced people, but very rarely for criminal purposes. In '05/'06 only four registered firearms were used to commit homicides - hardly an epidemic is it? Some of those "homicides" may have been within criminal circles anyway, and probably would've occurred even if they hadn't had a firearm to hand.

Yes, a handful of times. It's hardly arming the thousands of criminals is it. And even less likely for A/B cat firearms. It proves my point, that criminals, even desperate ones find it easier to simply buy imported firearms than try to steal them by force.

Perpetuating the crap that criminals are stealing legally-owned firearms to use against innocent people just helps the anti-gunners and does nothing to protect shooters from media garbage - and that should definitely win you an award from GCA.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by sbd3927 » 20 Jan 2017, 10:10 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:The 'real hard crims' will source their guns from anywhere,


There's even the metropolitan delivery service... handguns have been taken from police. Two I know of, an ambush in Melb around 20 years ago, another local incident few years ago where a driver was pulled up 3-4 times in the same day, ended in fatality of both parties. There's bound to be more instances of police sourced firearms, I wonder how the numbers compare with the number of domestic thefts. I wonder why that number wasn't tabled in parliament last year... :sarcasm:
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by SteamedHam » 20 Jan 2017, 10:32 am

I reckon they put the privacy statement that's on the bottom of the letter just to troll us.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2017, 11:17 am

SteamedHam wrote:I reckon they put the privacy statement that's on the bottom of the letter just to troll us.



Yeah, I didn't believe that bit for a second :-)
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 20 Jan 2017, 11:39 am

I never suggested agreement with the anti's line of " legal guns feeding the illegal gun trade" , such that the MAJORITY of illegal guns started off as legal and were diverted by the color market (white/gray/black nonsense)....

And i never suggested they were necessarily used in the commission of crimes after theft, facts are: 1- guns are stolen, 2-crims steal those guns.

It is however just ridiculous to suggest what you did - that crims do not target legal guns, always have - always will. Whether its 1 or 10000guns.


Now stop looking for an argument here, and argue with the DELWP who sent YOUR details where they shouldnt have gone, YOU now have to trust that the recipients of YOUR address wont forward on the file to someone with those nefarious plans...
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 20 Jan 2017, 11:42 am

Interesting that only the ABC has reported this, online at least....if it was any other interest group other than shooters, it would have saturated the news lines...
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2017, 11:50 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:I never suggested agreement with the anti's line of " legal guns feeding the illegal gun trade" , such that the MAJORITY of illegal guns started off as legal and were diverted by the color market (white/gray/black nonsense)....

And i never suggested they were necessarily used in the commission of crimes after theft, facts are: 1- guns are stolen, 2-crims steal those guns.

It is however just ridiculous to suggest what you did - that crims do not target legal guns, always have - always will. Whether its 1 or 10000guns.


Now stop looking for an argument here, and argue with the DELWP who sent YOUR details where they shouldnt have gone, YOU now have to trust that the recipients of YOUR address wont forward on the file to someone with those nefarious plans...


I agree with you, like everything else we own, guns do get stolen. And by definition, they are stolen by criminals.
But I do not agree that criminals are specifically targeting firearms to any great degree. A handful may be earning some money by stealing A/B cat firearms to on-sell to unlicenced people, but it can hardly be called a significant problem compared to how much of our stuff is being stolen in general.
The Kennards job was clearly targeting firearms, and probably fairly organised, but not at all "common". I wait to hear more about the people that were busted with those firearms yesterday to see what their plans were, or if they even had any plans for them.

I will be writing to DELWP of course. But I will also refute comments like yours that have no real basis and merely make life harder for all firearms owners.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 20 Jan 2017, 12:05 pm

righteo.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Jan 2017, 12:16 pm

This is to some an emotional topic. Stay cool. 8-)
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2017, 12:30 pm

Oldbloke wrote:This is to some an emotional topic. Stay cool. 8-)



I'm cool :-)
As I said, I don't feel any greater risk of being targeted than I already had.

I'd be slightly more concerned about the potential leak if I lived in a town or city though.
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Re: Thousands of gun owners' personal details released (VIC)

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Jan 2017, 4:39 pm

<<Genesis93>> wrote:Interesting that only the ABC has reported this, online at least....if it was any other interest group other than shooters, it would have saturated the news lines...


Good point. General media will twist it against us next week.
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