Tougher Laws in W.A?

[Oldbloke]

Oops, I miss read the last on safes. Strong room OR as safe.

Still a high standard.

No mention of increasing penalties for firearm thieves?

[Jandamurra]

So I'm watching late night television last night and a news bulletin shows a story with the W.A. police commissioner calling for tougher gun laws for all due to a very organised break-in at a gun shop where about 130 handguns were stolen. WTF!!!
You blokes in W.A know anything about this?

This copper wants tougher laws, but not for all.
I can safely assume he didn't call for politicians to lose their right to conceal carry a handgun for self-defence.
One would think that in WA, the toughest part of Australia for gun laws, the politicians would show a bit of solidarity with the public and give up their own guns.
Whenever I see a politician, I wonder if they're "carrying".
Because if they are, that makes them the greatest hypocrites of all time.

[bladeracer]

I can safely assume he didn't call for politicians to lose their right to conceal carry a handgun for self-defence.

Do you have a link to this "right"?
Concealed carry is really only concealed from the general public, anybody that knows what to look for can usually pick out that somebody is carrying a handgun, especially when they're wearing a suit. Can you imagine the look of consternation Howard would have on his face if he knew he had a gun under his control

[Jandamurra]

I can safely assume he didn't call for politicians to lose their right to conceal carry a handgun for self-defence.

Do you have a link to this "right"?
Concealed carry is really only concealed from the general public, anybody that knows what to look for can usually pick out that somebody is carrying a handgun, especially when they're wearing a suit. Can you imagine the look of consternation Howard would have on his face if he knew he had a gun under his control

Wrong. I don't have a link.
I normally am pretty good with providing links. I decided not to do so here because do you honestly think the copper in question would have mentioned how politicians are allowed to "carry"?.
You wrote
Concealed carry is really only concealed from the general public .
Perhaps, but this is beside the point. I was talking only about the way politicians are allowed to concealed carry, no more and no less. I wasn't advancing any argument about how effective it was, or whether professionals can detect it, or anything else: only that it's rank hypocrisy for them to do so while denying the public the same, and rank cowardice for this cop not to mention it.
Similarly with this
Can you imagine the look of consternation Howard would have on his face if he knew he had a gun under his control,
how many politicians choose to exercise the option is the important thing, not whether this or that politician avails themselves of it.
We need to start regularly writing to politicians and asking them if the concealed carry. If they do, they have absolutely no right to deny others the means for personal defence.
Remember, you and I literally aren't allowed to have hair spray if we say it's for personal protection, let along pepper spray, let alone guns.
Doesn't that make you feel special?

[bladeracer]

Wrong. I don't have a link.
I normally am pretty good with providing links. I decided not to do so here because do you honestly think the copper in question would have mentioned how politicians are allowed to "carry"?

Do you have any evidence at all then that "politicians are allowed concealed carry"?
I have known only three Aussie civilians licenced for concealed carry, all many years ago, all in WA.
One was/is a high-profile jeweler/pawnbroker who struts around wearing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gold jewelry. His carry guns were a beautiful pair of 4006's when I knew him, but he had an extensive collection.
One was a licenced private investigator who did a lot of work for diamond merchants as a courier. His carry piece was an ancient P08 Luger.
The last was an old nutter that simply got licenced many decades earlier and just maintained it for no reason I could ascertain. I never handled his carry piece but it appeared to be some sort of Saturday Night Special revolver of ancient origin.
It's quite possible that I've known others that were licenced but never made it known to me.

Schedule 3 of the Act in Victoria does not list politicians as being exempt from requiring a licence to possess a handgun. Even Police, military and the Director of the Office of Police Integrity can only carry while on official duty.

Schedule 2 of the Act in ACT adds nothing about politicians.

Regulation 113 of the Regulations in NSW allows Police officers to be in "possession" of their service firearm while they are off duty. It does not allow them to carry it concealed though.

[Jandamurra]

I don't see how citing legislation refutes anything I say because exceptions can and will be made if authorities wish to do so.

I was under the impression that permission to carry can be obtained from the police by certain persons such as politicians-not the general public of course.

Legislation, which you were I must admit quite specific in citing, doesn't necessarily come into it.

IMHO it would be a great idea if people starting asking politicians about this. Even if a direct answer cannot be obtained, the way they react would be instructive.

[bladeracer]

I think your "impression" is unfounded in fact and you should probably stop perpetuating this myth.

If you ask them about their right to carry they will ask you what on earth you are talking about.

If you ask them if they carry they will answer no, it's illegal.

[Daddybang]

I think your "impression" is unfounded in fact and you should probably stop perpetuating this myth.
If you ask them about their right to carry they will ask you what on earth you are talking about.
If you ask them if they carry they will answer no, it's illegal.

[1886]

Exactly and not too mention it would serve no purpose as most politicians couldn't hit a cow up the arse with a handful of wheat.

[Jandamurra]

@bladeracer, Daddybang and 1886

I'm not perpetuating a myth, only attempting to establish the facts.
Merely citing legislation does not always indicate what is actually allowed. Bladeracer has therefore not answered the question of whether politicians are allowed to carry merely by indicating it isn't expressly permitted in statutes.
In my last comment, I made it clear I thought it was a good idea if people asked politicians whether they had some sort of exemption to carry.
Ask, got that? Not accuse, but ask. See the difference?
But yes, I definitely have the "impression" they do have an exemption. This impression has not been formed without reason-
-I have read or taken part in several debates about this topic, and no-one until now has expressly said that it is only a myth. The issue has been sidestepped, joked about or ignored, but no one has ever come out and denied it until now. Why not?
-Other countries do have special legislation for politicians, such as Germany.
-Politicians are capable of being total hypocrites on this matter for example this woman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_8fkyJC6mw

[1886]

What has any of this got to do with this post which is "Tougher laws in WA" which relates to increased safe and security measures required by dealers who deal in handguns.

Nothing to do with conceal or carry or politicians but I can assure you there are no such provisions or exemptions in WA's laws.

[Gwion]

What has any of this got to do with this post which is "Tougher laws in WA" which relates to increased safe and security measures required by dealers who deal in handguns.

Nothing to do with conceal or carry or politicians but I can assure you there are no such provisions or exemptions in WA's laws.

Because some members link everything back to some sort of orchestrated conspiracy and have major shares in the tin foil industry. It must be contagious because I sometimes wonder if theses members turn up purely to stir the pot and make Aussie firearms owners look like a bunch of raving loons...

[duncan61]

I shop at Barry and sons and they are good people however It sounds like the thieves got in through a brick wall.Handguns should be locked up in a proper safe especially if the handguns are already sold.They are not that big and an old bank safe would of done it.A mate of mine has a massive collection of firearms in excess of 200 including handguns and muzzle loaders.He bought a safe off the Commonwealth bank and built the house around it.how this got to politics and concealed handguns is beyond me.Have you ever visited a planet called Earth??Name one person who sits in parliament question time with a gun in their pocket

[Daddybang]

What has any of this got to do with this post which is "Tougher laws in WA" which relates to increased safe and security measures required by dealers who deal in handguns.

Nothing to do with conceal or carry or politicians but I can assure you there are no such provisions or exemptions in WA's laws.

Because some members link everything back to some sort of orchestrated conspiracy and have major shares in the tin foil industry. It must be contagious because I sometimes wonder if theses members turn up purely to stir the pot and make Aussie firearms owners look like a bunch of raving loons...

This ^^^^^
However when the aliens get here on the 23rd of September all the poliscum will whip out their concealed rocket launchers and use them to protect the common man.

[duncan61]

Thats it

[bladeracer]

I shop at Barry and sons and they are good people however It sounds like the thieves got in through a brick wall.Handguns should be locked up in a proper safe especially if the handguns are already sold.They are not that big and an old bank safe would of done it.A mate of mine has a massive collection of firearms in excess of 200 including handguns and muzzle loaders.He bought a safe off the Commonwealth bank and built the house around it.how this got to politics and concealed handguns is beyond me.Have you ever visited a planet called Earth??Name one person who sits in parliament question time with a gun in their pocket

I doubt anything would've stopped the Barry's robbery. They knew all the details of construction, position, security system, etc due to their insider. If the situation had been different they would've simply gone with a plan that suited that.

[Gamerancher]

So my original assumption that it was an inside job was correct?

[bladeracer]

So my original assumption that it was an inside job was correct?

That's what Barry posted somewhere. He had an employee that had numerous reasons why Police should never have given him a licence, let alone clear him to work in the industry.

[Archie]

So I'm watching late night television last night and a news bulletin shows a story with the W.A. police commissioner calling for tougher gun laws for all due to a very organised break-in at a gun shop where about 130 handguns were stolen. WTF!!!
You blokes in W.A know anything about this?

This copper wants tougher laws, but not for all.
I can safely assume he didn't call for politicians to lose their right to conceal carry a handgun for self-defence.
One would think that in WA, the toughest part of Australia for gun laws, the politicians would show a bit of solidarity with the public and give up their own guns.
Whenever I see a politician, I wonder if they're "carrying".
Because if they are, that makes them the greatest hypocrites of all time.

Whenever I see a politician, I wonder if they're "carrying" an ounce of common sense. In your case I don't need to wonder. This idea of yours is ridiculous. Got an example? One, documented example from a credible source?

We're talking about a bunch of people that can't actually get around to checking their citizenship is in order. They aren't masterminds, they're muppets. Half of them are half drunk half the time, and all of them are argumentative. You seriously think someone wouldn't have given the game away with a negligent discharge by now. Do you honestly think that if they were walking around with concealed handguns it wouldn't be widely known by now? And I mean widely known outside of the paranoid conspiracy nut community.

[duncan61]

Well said.

[Lorgar]

@bladeracer, Daddybang and 1886

I'm not perpetuating a myth, only attempting to establish the facts.
Merely citing legislation does not always indicate what is actually allowed. Bladeracer has therefore not answered the question of whether politicians are allowed to carry merely by indicating it isn't expressly permitted in statutes.
In my last comment, I made it clear I thought it was a good idea if people asked politicians whether they had some sort of exemption to carry.
Ask, got that? Not accuse, but ask. See the difference?
But yes, I definitely have the "impression" they do have an exemption. This impression has not been formed without reason-
-I have read or taken part in several debates about this topic, and no-one until now has expressly said that it is only a myth. The issue has been sidestepped, joked about or ignored, but no one has ever come out and denied it until now. Why not?
-Other countries do have special legislation for politicians, such as Germany.
-Politicians are capable of being total hypocrites on this matter for example this woman:

You say you're attempting to establish the facts, but you don't seem to want to hear them, mate.

1) You said politicians have a right to concealed carry, Bladeracer asked you to provide a link to legislation outlining this.

You refused.

2) Blaceracer referenced several of our Acts and how they did not permit conceal carry for politicians.

You responded by saying citing legislation doesn't refute what you said. If citing legislation doesn't confirm what the law is, then what does?

Instead you're suggesting there is some unwritten agreement, whispered behind closed doors, that all political and law enforcement agencies agree to that the public is unaware of?

3) You said yourself you are "under the impression".

So it's an impression, you're not certain? You have nothing to confirm it? Why hold to the idea then, contrary to the legislation you're being directed to?

4) You say your impression is informed because:
a) You've taken part in debates in the subject
b) No one has previously suggested it was a myth
c) Other countries have special legislation for politicians
d) Politicians are capable of being hypocrites.

Your participation in debates has no bearing on what is or is not the law.

That no one has contradicted your impression is equally meaningless.

Other countries... are other countries. The laws of Germany or anywhere else you might reference in response mean nothing in Australia.

As with all your other examples, the character flaws of people who happen to be politicians is irrelevant.


Do you want establish the facts? Really? Or do you just want people to agree with you and lend support to this secret legislation conspiracy?

Because it would seem they've been reasonably well established, and all you've done so far is ignore information you've been presented with and doggedly stick to your unsupported impression.

Something to think about. Cheers

[Blackened]

This has veered way off topic, guys.

The OPs question is about tougher Laws in W.A.

If you want to continue discussing concealed carry by politicians start a new topic so you're not hijacking this one.

[Oldbloke]

Well done Lorgar.

[duncan61]

Lets get back on topic.Can anyone suggest what these :Tougher laws:will be.I live here and think the system works fine.I have had the same firearms for years.If I wish to purchase an Adler or Pardus 5 shot lever there are dozens of them in my LGS.I say the bunnies have got out of control at the farm and it will get approved.I have not had an I.D. card for some time cos I lost my wallet and it was my fault.I can get a replacement in no time as I will do next week at the post office.I have still been buying shotgun ammo and licenced 3 firearms recently at Barrys shop without a card that were in storage cos me mate got in some bother with a domestic 3 years ago and is still trying to clear it all up.I have done a co user for him to help.I can have handguns and big bore safari rifles and keep them at home and hang them on the wall as long as I lock them away in a gunsafe when I go out.Call me a fudd but I have yet to see a W.A. shooter complain about the laws here.It used to be real hard to get any rifle above hornet till the new A/B system.Now its a piece of cake.

[1886]

duncan61, These new "policy laws" don't affect shooters.

They are only additional security issues dealers will have to comply with if they wish to continue to deal in handguns.

I agree as I have a laugh at our eastern friends when they have a shot at WA as they seem to be more concerned than most of us do. In reality there's not much difference other than the wait periods and ironically QLD now appears to be getting worse. We can still get what we need if all boxes are ticked so I don't have any major problems. WA Club shooters can also have what they can't.

We also currently don't have their crazy transport laws only having to take "reasonable care" and the Commissioner himself in the recent Law Reform Commission review submitted the following;

"When firearms are in transit, for instance conveyed in a car boot or back seat, the owner being present would be sufficient security. If a vehicle is left unattended for a short period (e.g. parked outside a shop to purchase goods), WA Police would expect the firearm to be removed from common view, the bolt and/or magazine separated from the firearm and the vehicle to be locked."

[bladeracer]

Lets get back on topic.Can anyone suggest what these :Tougher laws:will be.I live here and think the system works fine.I have had the same firearms for years.If I wish to purchase an Adler or Pardus 5 shot lever there are dozens of them in my LGS.I say the bunnies have got out of control at the farm and it will get approved.I have not had an I.D. card for some time cos I lost my wallet and it was my fault.I can get a replacement in no time as I will do next week at the post office.I have still been buying shotgun ammo and licenced 3 firearms recently at Barrys shop without a card that were in storage cos me mate got in some bother with a domestic 3 years ago and is still trying to clear it all up.I have done a co user for him to help.I can have handguns and big bore safari rifles and keep them at home and hang them on the wall as long as I lock them away in a gunsafe when I go out.Call me a fudd but I have yet to see a W.A. shooter complain about the laws here.It used to be real hard to get any rifle above hornet till the new A/B system.Now its a piece of cake.

Why do you need "to say that the bunnies are out of control" to purchase a lever-action shotgun?
Why on earth do you need an ID card to purchase ammo?
I lived twenty-eight years in WA and I complained about their laws, even after I left and went back to visit.
It may be "a piece of cake" for you. That does not mean it is a piece of cake for other shooting enthusiasts. Only caring about yourself is what defines a FUDD, how about doing something to help us grow the number of shooters instead.

[duncan61]

Debating on the Internet is something I am new at.I am enjoying this forum so I feel the need to respond.I have lost track of the new shooters I have helped.Because I have worked with an Italian family that has a lot of land I can do property letters for people I trust.I respect your opinion because your posts are intelligent and informed.Perhaps one day I could fly to Victoria and spin some yarns.Regards Duncan

[Jandamurra]

You say you're attempting to establish the facts, but you don't seem to want to hear them, mate.

1) You said politicians have a right to concealed carry, Bladeracer asked you to provide a link to legislation outlining this.

You refused.

This is highly misleading. I candidly admitted I was not able to cite the legislation and have explained ad nauseun why citing the legislation might not be relevant here.

2) Blaceracer referenced several of our Acts and how they did not permit conceal carry for politicians.

You responded by saying citing legislation doesn't refute what you said. If citing legislation doesn't confirm what the law is, then what does?

See above. There's only so much I can do. Another example of the way laws can be ignored by our guardians is when various people, including John Howard, publically declared Martin Bryant to be the perpetrator, and the sole perpetrator, of the Port Arthur Massacre (PAM). Get over it, it happens.

Instead you're suggesting there is some unwritten agreement, whispered behind closed doors, that all political and law enforcement agencies agree to that the public is unaware of?

I like the way you finish with this one. You make it sound as though the very idea of the public being unaware of something is so incredible as to defy belief. It's not only lack of knowledge as such, but inability to evaluate its importance that can be a great obstacle to improving people's awareness of various issues. Sheer force of habit and mental inertia among most people are a major advantage for those wishing to avoid certain debates, such as whether it is true that politicians are allowed to carry guns for self-defence.

3) You said yourself you are "under the impression".

So it's an impression, you're not certain? You have nothing to confirm it? Why hold to the idea then, contrary to the legislation you're being directed to?

You are going around in circles again here.

4) You say your impression is informed because:
a) You've taken part in debates in the subject
b) No one has previously suggested it was a myth
c) Other countries have special legislation for politicians
d) Politicians are capable of being hypocrites.

Your participation in debates has no bearing on what is or is not the law.

Of course it doesn't.

That no one has contradicted your impression is equally meaningless.

You left out "until now".That no-one contradicted my impression until now indicates there was no need to until I persisted long enough.

Other countries... are other countries. The laws of Germany or anywhere else you might reference in response mean nothing in Australia.

I explained why I mentioned these in my last post.

As with all your other examples, the character flaws of people who happen to be politicians is irrelevant.

No, they are central to the whole question. If they can be lying hypocrites about one thing, they can be lying hypocrites about other things.


Do you want establish the facts? Really? Or do you just want people to agree with you and lend support to this secret legislation conspiracy?

Because it would seem they've been reasonably well established, and all you've done so far is ignore information you've been presented with and doggedly stick to your unsupported impression.

Something to think about. Cheers

[Lorgar]

Nothing of substances there again mate, just more conspiracy.

You're obviously not willing to change your opinion so I won't waste any more of either of our time discussing it further.

Good luck with that.

[Gwion]

Nothing of substances there again mate, just more conspiracy.

You're obviously not willing to change your opinion so I won't waste any more of either of our time discussing it further.

Good luck with that.

Well done and nice try.