New Firearm Alliance for NFA

[bladeracer]

So JS, you make an assumption of people based on a photograph and a dissected ABC media story and you reckon you have absolute authority on the subject?

"First I’d like you to take a look the Board. Literlaly, take a look:
Image

Notice something? The demographic is completely wrong. They are well past their use by date. Out of touch due to lack of influence form younger shooters that they keep out. Out of touch because they don’t understand technology. Out of touch because they still live in 1996. "

I personally know 5 of the people in that photograph, or at least I thought I did. They are heavily involved in getting new people, especially juniors, into shooting. They give a lot of time and energy, provide firearms, ammunition and tuition to new people every week.
But according to Mr "I've been shooting for 18 months and I know everything", apparently, I don't.
If the SSAA appalls you so much, don't be a member, don't use their range facilities, their insurance or any of the other things that that provide. Go join some other association, form a new one or go it alone, I don't give a rats arse, BUT, I will stick up for people who you don't know and criticize for "not doing anything" when you don't know s**t about them or what goes on out of the "media" spotlight.

What exactly is your demographic? Please let us all know exactly what is is that "they" haven't got a clue about.

It can't be denied that there are a lot of firearms owners who are unimpressed with SSAA representation, and have been for a long time. Any flak directed at them is a direct result of what members perceive, and since so little information actually comes out of SSAA, our perception is unlikely to be good. They need to read what their members are asking for, and they need to address it. You know these people. Direct them to this thread and let's see if they can enlighten us. If they give us actual information it shouldn't be very difficult at all to turn it around.

[Gwion]

And bitch in the corner.....
That's the retarded thing. You want to pay someone to represent you but don't want to get your hands dirty.

Reality is that a great number of SSAA members look at their membership as cheap public liability insurance whilst using firearms.

[Gwion]

People misunderstand what the SSAA is. It is not a lobbying organisation. It is not the Aus version of NRA. It is a bunch of people who have banded together to shoot and to encourage new people to shoot. They are not trained professionals, they are everyday people. Inasmuch the video posted is really quite representative of who they are.
Stop beating your house cat for not being a lion!

[juststarting]

No, Gwion, you are wrong... This is from their About Us page:

The Sporting Shooters’ Association of Australia (SSAA) was established in 1948 in order to promote the shooting sports and protect firearm owners’ interests.

So yeah mate, it should be a lion. But in reality it's a pussy.

[TheDude]

Well do something about it JS, you're not a customer but a member. Get involved rather than sitting on the sideline bitching.

[Gwion]

No, Gwion, you are wrong... This is from their About Us page:

The Sporting Shooters’ Association of Australia (SSAA) was established in 1948 in order to promote the shooting sports and protect firearm owners’ interests.

So yeah mate, it should be a lion. But in reality it's a pussy.

No. You are wrong.

Because they are not acting according to Your interpretation of that statement does not mean they are not adhering to it. They provide liability and firearms insurance very reasonably. That is doing more than you think to protect firearms users' interests.

"It Should be"....
Well, get in there and make it such!

[Gwion]

Every one's an expert from the outside. Especially when they are actually to lazy to do anything about it themselves.

[bladeracer]

And bitch in the corner.....
That's the retarded thing. You want to pay someone to represent you but don't want to get your hands dirty.

Reality is that a great number of SSAA members look at their membership as cheap public liability insurance whilst using firearms.

Not everybody is able to "get their hands dirty", so they make a financial contribution to allow others to do the "dirty" work on their behalf.

I think the reality is that most members join SSAA for only one reason - genuine reason when applying for a licence. And SSAA seem to feel that is all they need to provide for that contribution. In Victoria we do not need any membership of any clubs as we have crown land to shoot on, although most Victorian shooters I've met seem unaware of this before applying for their licence.

From their homepage:
"About Us - The Sporting Shooters’ Association of Australia (SSAA) was established in 1948 in order to promote the shooting sports and protect firearm owners’ interests. Those roles remain the same today, and with more than 180,000 members and 400 clubs, the SSAA is the premier sports shooting body representing licensed owners in Australia."

Their representation of my interests, and promoting our sport to _non-shooters_ is all that I expect of them.
They have no facilities within a reasonable distance to me so I have no use of those.
The magazines and newsletters do not keep me informed on important issues that I might need their representation on, it's more advertising than information. Hopefully it brings in further funds to represent us and bring new shooters in, which is a good thing...if those funds go toward those efforts.
The insurance is obviously a big money earner for them, but my firearms are already included in my home contents insurance making it unlikely that I need SSAA insurance as well.

I think I'm being fair in asking SSAA to do nothing more in exchange for my fees than represent my interests and grow the sport as they state their aims are.

[bladeracer]

Well do something about it JS, you're not a customer but a member. Get involved rather than sitting on the sideline bitching.

This a cop out. Not everybody is able to get involved, that does not automatically invalidate their criticism. Criticism is probably even more useful than praise, as it highlights problems and provides focus on finding better methods.

[Gwion]

My point, which I have made painfully obvious, is: all this about the SSAA is true, they need to move with the times and get heavy about making positive change for everyday shooters; but how can you expect them to represent your demographic when you won't even get involved in a hands on manner???
They represent their demographic. Stand up and be counted.
If you have hours to spend bagging them out online or drooling over useguns.com or talking random crap in a shooting forum, you have some time spare to get stuck in and make the change you're calling for.
But then, it's far more satisfying to trim someone else down than it is to put your own neck on the line.

[juststarting]

Gwion (and TheDude), my contribution is financial. I have a family, I have a full time job and generally a busy life. They are pretty low on a list of things that I can donate time to. So I simply can't afford it. I can afford to give them money though, and that's what I was doing. And based on their website I was contributing to them fighting for my rights. It's right there on their website! But I see you largely agree, so we are on the same page...

Maybe one day I will be able to afford to donate time, but not now. However, being a contributor non the less, I am entitled to know what that money is doing and provide criticism! Criticism is valuable, it provides perspective and direction, should they choose to take it. Yet, there's silence...

And to all SSAA people reading this, I am more than happy to help, as long as I can do it online on my own time. Feel free to PM me. I'd be more than happy to research, collaborate, write and respond. But I also expect efficiency, direction and clear strategy.

[Gwion]

Maybe a simple way to get involved is to write to them about your dissatisfaction and what you would like to see happen. Get some friends to co-sign it so it isn't passed off as one man's whinge. Add the detail that you are happy to help out with your professional skills to help better the representation of Australian civilian shooters.

It might have a bigger impact than you think and is more useful than just bitching about it online. Not saying you shouldn't voice your views, just that if they are that strong, you should follow through with some action, however small.

As above, it is many hands making small efforts that will effect change.

[Gwion]

At my local Fullbore Club there were quite a few people dissatisfied with how things were run. There was an in-house dispute that saw the exec group disintergrate. I was asked to join the exec as President. We have since instigated new shooting times and started opening the range for load development and sighting in. We have began trialing a new shooting platform as in introduction to precision shooting. We are considering other means to recruit and offer broader firearms skills with in the club and at the range to go on offer next season. We are looking at promotional activities and aim to promote safe and responsible firearms use in the community. We are seeking funding to improve range facilities. We are looking at coaching days to improve peoples technique (especially mine!)
Even before i was on the Exec, i initiated and new competition called the "Dead Eye": points are accrued through the year by placing the first shot of the day as close to the bull as possible; winner gets a custom knife engraved with the year, club name and "Dead Eye". The aim is to get people recording and referring to their DOPE and reading the conditions instead of just walking onto the bull over 3-4 shots.

It may sound like a small thing but these are the things that can and need to be done on a local level with a proactive approach.

It all takes time, effort and no small amount of diplomacy with some of the old guard putting up a dedicated resistance to keep it how it was and to prove our efforts misguided but the important thing is to just do it because no-one else is going to.

The initiatives have already gained attention from the Chairman of the NRAA.
Lead by example.

[juststarting]

I see. So all it really took is the ejection of old leadership.

[juststarting]

Maybe a simple way to get involved is to write to them about your dissatisfaction and what you would like to see happen. Get some friends to co-sign it so it isn't passed off as one man's whinge. Add the detail that you are happy to help out with your professional skills to help better the representation of Australian civilian shooters.

It might have a bigger impact than you think and is more useful than just bitching about it online. Not saying you shouldn't voice your views, just that if they are that strong, you should follow through with some action, however small.

As above, it is many hands making small efforts that will effect change.

You keep saying bitching, I wasnt, I called them hacks and moved on until someone called me out on it; and I don't dislike you lot So I backed up my statement with explanation and clear evidence.

I am actually indifferent to their existence, Gwion. They do nothing and they are not considered by anyone, it took me much quicker to realise that than some of you, but as long as we all get there in the end. So I am indifferent. I don't think they have the pull, they should have had for an association that was established well over half a century ago. So, hacks, disorganised and I am indifferent.

A better idea, if Gamerancher and BlueEsky shows them this thread. An even better idea is if they just know about it, because they should be measuring public centiment and tools to collect this data automatically are available. Because, you know, it's their bloodey job! Everything else according to their website is secondary. The primary job, fight and support shooters rights. This is it. You can huff and puff and sugacoat it as much as you want, but this their primarily purpose that they failed at it.

It's on their site! Stop trying to sell it as something else.

So you see, Gwion, really, they should be here recognising their mistakes and asking for help. I shouldn't be going anywhere, because I am I different to them at this stage (happy to reconsider though).

Also, pretty sure Gamerancher has already shared the link, so they are here, reading this. He said he personally knows 5 of them... So it's safe to assume they are seeing this. Still silent though, which of course suggests that any communication with them would be the same.

[WatchyShooter]

Just wanted to drop a young brand new shooters view in here, as this actually was something that came up during applying.

In the midst of filling out paperwork and working ot total cost & finding that most clubs here in SA require that you have Club Membership, SSAA Membership & IPSC Membership got me looking into what I'm getting for my money.

Magazines
Firearms insurance
Farmer Assist Access
Up to date news on important issues
A lobbiest group whom will protect and further the rights of sporting shooters.

Now those above things are great! I'd love to hear more?

What are you currently doing to combat the disadvantages our competitive shooters face due to magazine restrictions & such?

What are your current plans to expand & enable ranges and clubs to run 3 Gun Australia matches, Which is a Internationally recognised IPSC match & a valid use of Cat C, Yet the only approved club in Australia is SAPOL's own shooting club.
Link with info on 3GA http://www.firearmownersunited.com/2016 ... australia/

What are your current active projects?

What are some of the areas SSAA could improve on?


Unfortunately I've been unable to find an answer for most questions, and with there being no forum for over 200,000! members to share knowledge, current events & coordinate responses to policital policies , I'll give it to SSAA NSW for having so much info on the local MP's and how many shooters licensed in their electorate, whoevers set that up is doing things right.

So having been unable to find like said here any of their accomplishments , I'm in the same boat of holding them up by my current experience.

100% they are targeting the wrong demographic, it's just like during my application process, neither my SSAA branch, local gun shop, or FAB have been open to a young and inexperienced shooter, or provided the information or just general things I need.

the treatment I received in my LGS actually will stop me from spending money, as it had the effect on my missus that it would on most, it discouraged her to the point of almost not applying further, but we did.

Even one bad first experience is enough to set someone down the path of associating that treatment and mindset of shooters with ALL shooters

Worst part, if I'd like to be a member of my local club, they require SSAA membership, which is leaving a bad taste in my mouth as it's something I wouldn't take up if not required, guess it might give me more reason to bug them till I get something

[Gwion]

deleted double post.

[Gwion]

No. It takes more than that. A new exec group could easily have kept treading the same old path.
Anyone can sit back and criticise but taking a proactive approach take more determination to overcome those neigh-sayers and obstructionists.

[juststarting]

So you're saying that SSAA needs a full overhaul and change of guard, Gwion? Sounds like you are saying it based on your local experience.

Do you think that, Gwion?

[Gwion]

What I'm saying is that nothing will happen if proactive people with drive and determination don't get involved. Most shooters are so apathetic that they expect everyone else to do the heavy lifting for them and sit back and complain that a good enough job is not being done.
Muck in with a can do attitude and things will change. Sit back and whinge and things will only get worse!

[juststarting]

But do you agree with my analysis of SSAA, Gwion?

[BluEsky]

What I'm saying is that nothing will happen if proactive people with drive and determination don't get involved. Most shooters are so apathetic that they expect everyone else to do the heavy lifting for them and sit back and complain that a good enough job is not being done.
Muck in with a can do attitude and things will change. Sit back and whinge and things will only get worse!

Wise words Gwion but the attempt to shut the gate is much to late, in talking with the unpaid people who run The Shooting Sports this sort of Crap is what gets up their Noses the most, must we go to a Fee for Service for all including the Wingers and Knockers, that represents the True Value of what they are getting for their money!

[Gwion]

But do you agree with my analysis of SSAA, Gwion?

Can't say I agree entirely with the negative run down of them but they do need an injection of new, enthusiastic blood that are more modern and professional in their approach.

[juststarting]

Thank you.

[BluEsky]

Quote..Gamerancher & BluEsky let the games begin! You see, I had a blog post saved up just for this, in my drafts, but I just couldn’t bring myself to posting it – for better or worse or something. But, I know what I am dealing with, you guys, you seem oblivious or just broken over time.

Games Who is playing Games? You say you Pay the SSAA WELL, and pay a Fee for Service, and your money supported the SSAA , and what you get for your money is Not enough, FFS give me a break!
Well I ran your thoughts past some of the crew in the Games Room who work in the Sport, and told them what you wanted for $75 and they all said ..........

[BluEsky]

But do you agree with my analysis of SSAA, Gwion?

Can't say I agree entirely with the negative run down of them but they do need an injection of new, enthusiastic blood that are more modern and professional in their approach.

Does that mean we are going to see juststarting fronting up and standing around on the Fire line with Keyboard in hand giving Range commands? and not holding his greedy little hand out for what he thinks his time is worth!

[juststarting]

Blue, your attempts at rebuttal are sad. Not me for you, you are inconsequential, but rather how SSAA treats and a responds to it's members. Memes and LOLs and your sad attempt at 'argument from authority' when referring to your 'friends in a sport', which is a classic logical fallacy (I give you a minute to google that, ay?) are endemic and only further support my point.

Yes, $75 or whatever it is, I think I pay $80 something actually... But $75 across 50,000 members is $3,750,000 annual budget. Then factor in external donations from Winchester and NRA (ones I could find, there's probably​ more) and you have a powerhouse, a beast of association. Yet, nothing has been achieved.

By the way, I am still waiting on a list of SSAA achievements, surely a minimal annual budget of $3M gets something done, no?

So rather than sarcasm or posting memes, don't pull a Geoff, come armed with facts and at least try to save one membership from joining the mass exodus to Shooters Union Australia.

[on_one_wheel]

Blue, your attempts at rebuttal are sad. Not me for you, you are inconsequential, but rather how SSAA treats and a responds to it's members. Memes and LOLs and your sad attempt at 'argument from authority' when referring to your 'friends in a sport', which is a classic logical fallacy (I give you a minute to google that, ay?) are endemic and only further support my point.

Yes, $75 or whatever it is, I think I pay $80 something actually... But $75 across 50,000 members is $3,750,000 annual budget. Then factor in external donations from Winchester and NRA (ones I could find, there's probably​ more) and you have a powerhouse, a beast of association. Yet, nothing has been achieved.

By the way, I am still waiting on a list of SSAA achievements, surely a minimal annual budget of $3M gets something done, no?

So rather than sarcasm or posting memes, don't pull a Geoff, come armed with facts and at least try to save one membership from joining the mass exodus to Shooters Union Australia.

They claim to have 180 000 members JS
That's 13.5 million dollars in membership annually.

[juststarting]

My bad...

[on_one_wheel]

Makes them look even less proactive hey ...