lead exposure in shooters

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lead exposure in shooters

Post by albat » 06 Apr 2017, 11:01 am

http://theconversation.com/people-who-s ... sure-68220 was listening to the abc radio and they had a guy talking about lead levels in the blood of shooters, suggesting that the primers were the main cause he suggested that lead was especially dangerous for kids , any thoughts fellas?
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by GLS_1956 » 06 Apr 2017, 11:13 am

This has been a point of discussion in the US for awhile. The higher lead content found in persons shooting at indoor ranges has brought about the closing of a few of them, mostly gov't run CLEET, Comprehensive Law Enforcement Education Training, ranges. But the studies have brought about polymer enclosed bullets and I believe that at least one ammo maker is using a lead free primer.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by WatchyShooter » 06 Apr 2017, 11:14 am

In the US, about one million law enforcement officers train at indoor firing ranges, 20 million citizens practice target shooting, and 16,000-18,000 indoor firing ranges exist.


Honestly I don't see this being an issue here in Australia, we have a fraction of those numbers in every way, even before you count that majority of firearms at our clubs and ranges won't be semi auto or full auto and won't experience the sustained discharges of particles.

Interesting research, would be nice to see conducted somewhere like NZ or the Swiss, higher standards of things like conforming to building code for ventilation could have an effect and would more accurately represent Australia.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Sender » 06 Apr 2017, 1:30 pm

Needs way more info to be credible.

We reviewed 36 studies that measured blood lead levels at shooting ranges. The studies were from 15 countries, but most were from the US. About two-thirds of the studies looked at people who used shooting ranges for work.

We found blood lead levels of at least one of the participants in 31 of 36 studies had an elevated blood lead level. This means more than the current adult blood lead reference level of 5µg/dL, or 5 micrograms of lead per decilitre of blood, as recommended by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.


So in 5 of the studies no one had raised lead levels, not a great point.

"At least one of the participants" out of how many?

Does "at least one" mean 1/30 people or 25/30 people.

What do the people do for a living? Outside of that? Other environmental factors?

Basically this said "we tested a bunch of shooters and some had raised lead", and seemingly the majority did not.

Meaningless.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by WatchyShooter » 06 Apr 2017, 1:35 pm

Sender wrote:Needs way more info to be credible.

We reviewed 36 studies that measured blood lead levels at shooting ranges. The studies were from 15 countries, but most were from the US. About two-thirds of the studies looked at people who used shooting ranges for work.

We found blood lead levels of at least one of the participants in 31 of 36 studies had an elevated blood lead level. This means more than the current adult blood lead reference level of 5µg/dL, or 5 micrograms of lead per decilitre of blood, as recommended by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.


So in 5 of the studies no one had raised lead levels, not a great point.

"At least one of the participants" out of how many?

Does "at least one" mean 1/30 people or 25/30 people.

What do the people do for a living? Outside of that? Other environmental factors?

Basically this said "we tested a bunch of shooters and some had raised lead", and seemingly the majority did not.

Meaningless.


Could the exposure be due to environmental factors outside ranges? Did they just use the recorded reported levels of the local population to extrapolate what "normal" lead presence ?

There's so many posibilitys, this just could be one of them and need further investigation
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by RoginaJack » 06 Apr 2017, 4:02 pm

I can recall the a indoor range in Australia had a problem not so long back. A police indoor shooting range using lead bullets caused concern with shooters and Instructors.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by on_one_wheel » 06 Apr 2017, 4:12 pm

5 micrograms is well below acceptable levels on Australia.

I'm not particularly concerned about levels below 20 in my own blood but I don't like the idea of lead in infants or young children's blood.

Get some lead in your pencil !
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Post by Wylie27 » 06 Apr 2017, 4:44 pm

Is this the new gca angle? Won't someone think of the children?
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Cryptic » 06 Apr 2017, 5:21 pm

RoginaJack wrote:I can recall the a indoor range in Australia had a problem not so long back. A police indoor shooting range using lead bullets caused concern with shooters and Instructors.


Local indoor near me has had a few instructors and people had to stay off range due to high counts. My last was 7.5 which was above civvie level but I get mine done via work with higher threshold level so I dont get the Doc questions.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Apr 2017, 6:17 pm

"Raised" does not mean it's a concern. It would only be a concern for regular shooting indoors and regular lead casting.

My blood pressure is a little raised. Doesn't mean I will drop dead Next Week. BUT children are at particularly high risk as their brain is still developing.

Also if you have a break from shooting the levels will slowly drop.

If you shoot indoors or cast often, MIGHT be a problem.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by No1Mk3 » 06 Apr 2017, 6:51 pm

A very well known security firm had employees suffering migraines bad enough to take sick leave, eventually found out it was elevated lead levels from indoor range use. Installed very good fume extractors, problem solved. When I worked in a non-ferrous foundry that used a lot of lead, we were required to drink a pint of milk every day on the basis that something in the casein protein bound with lead ions to help remove them from the body.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Apr 2017, 7:11 pm

Out door use is much lower risk compared with indoor. Simply because the additional ventilation dilutes the contamination in the air.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by bigfellascott » 06 Apr 2017, 10:46 pm

Not a prob for me, I don't frequent ranges. :D
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Post by on_one_wheel » 07 Apr 2017, 7:08 am

No1Mk3 wrote: I worked in a non-ferrous foundry that used a lot of lead, we were required to drink a pint of milk every day


Same here.
Our milks were labled with our names.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Chronos » 07 Apr 2017, 8:02 am

WHere does the lead come from with jacketed rifle bullets? I call BS unless you're shooting lots of pistol indoors. I used to shoot pistols with a high level pistol shooter. He would shoot around 1000 rounds a week, more in the lead up to a big comp. His tests showed lead levels on the limit and was advised to change his routine to reduce exposure. I doubt shooting 200 rounds a week outside is going to put you over and kids aren't allowed to do that anyway

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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by coroboreeboy » 07 Apr 2017, 8:24 am

A couple of years ago I did something really stupid. I had just started casting projectiles, and bought a Lee melting pot. In the course of using it for the first time, I ended up with the tap jammed open and about half a potful of lead ended up set solidly around the legs of the pot. Without thinking, I grabbed a 5 inch grinder and cut it off; no mask, no glasses. This was in my shed and when the brain went back into gear, I started to think about the dust I must have generated and what I must have breathed in, and what would be lying around in the shed. A couple of months later, I went to the doctor and had a test for lead levels: the results were "normal". This has led me to question whether the risks are a bit overstated.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Jimbo047 » 07 Apr 2017, 8:59 am

Are there lead free primers on the market? Primers are dirty and lead does very bad things to kids. I'd use lead-free primers when I reload if they were available.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 07 Apr 2017, 11:38 am

Corobeeboy,
The grinder would have created dust far too large/heavy to be breathed. Dust from a grinder would quickly settle out of the air.

Lead poisoning is caused in two main ways.
1. Ingestion of fine lead dust OR
2, Breathing vapour or extremely fine dust through the lungs (vapour is the highest risk)

The finer the dust the more hazardous it is due to the larger surface area increasing the reactivity within the absorption rate. That is why vapour is more hazardous, the lungs are also very good at transferring contaminants in the air to the blood-steam.

All bullet or sinker casters need to do is ensure good ventilation buy opening a couple of lager doors in the shed or doing it out of doors. A fan will assist in removing vapours away from the face.
In the workplace this would all change due to the many more hours you are exposed.
Some primers in the past have contained small amounts of Lead Azide or Lead styphnate and mercury fulminate. Mercury being more hazardous than lead. But most are now lead free.
If you handle lead wash hands before eating or smoking to prevent the transfer to the mouth.
If casting, as mentioned earlier ensure plenty of ventilation.
If shooting indoors avoid primers that have lead and get tested if worried. I believe drinking milk helps to remove lead from the body.

Young children are at most risk so keep them away from any lead work as it effects their brain development..

Hope this helps
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by coroboreeboy » 07 Apr 2017, 12:05 pm

Oldbloke:
Thanks for the info
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 07 Apr 2017, 3:32 pm

Glad to help
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Jimbo047 » 08 Apr 2017, 6:57 am

Oldbloke wrote:Some primers in the past have contained small amounts of Lead Azide or Lead styphnate and mercury fulminate. Mercury being more hazardous than lead. But most are now lead free.

Pretty sure this isn't true. Most are MERCURY free but all the standard primer products (Federal, CCI etc) still contain lead. These brands do have lead-free product lines but they are not as widely distributed.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Apr 2017, 8:07 am

Could be. You would need to check. Like anything we consume. But risk is still not high unless you shoot indoors.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Apr 2017, 8:33 am

Further reading here for those interested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by perentie » 14 Jul 2020, 11:58 am

Oldbloke wrote:Further reading here for those interested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning


Old thread I know but to keep it all in one, I have a hypothetical question.
Say a mate of mine has just been tested. Results are .60 umol/L and 12.4 ug/dL Up from last year. Health Dept sent a letter asking why.
Now old mate shoots a Black Powder cartridge rifle and cast his bullets under the house with a fan blowing gently sideways to keep the fumes away. He has been casting less than last year but blood count is still higher.
He does not want to quit shooting and casting.
Any ideas on what is happening and why and what else he can do to reduce the count.?
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jul 2020, 1:46 pm

perentie wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:Further reading here for those interested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning


Old thread I know but to keep it all in one, I have a hypothetical question.
Say a mate of mine has just been tested. Results are .60 umol/L and 12.4 ug/dL Up from last year. Health Dept sent a letter asking why.
Now old mate shoots a Black Powder cartridge rifle and cast his bullets under the house with a fan blowing gently sideways to keep the fumes away. He has been casting less than last year but blood count is still higher.
He does not want to quit shooting and casting.
Any ideas on what is happening and why and what else he can do to reduce the count.?


Sounds like poor ventilation.
Any more info? Sketch of the room including openings and location of man and fan would help.
1 opening or 2?
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jul 2020, 1:58 pm

perentie wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:Further reading here for those interested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning


Old thread I know but to keep it all in one, I have a hypothetical question.
Say a mate of mine has just been tested. Results are .60 umol/L and 12.4 ug/dL Up from last year. Health Dept sent a letter asking why.
Now old mate shoots a Black Powder cartridge rifle and cast his bullets under the house with a fan blowing gently sideways to keep the fumes away. He has been casting less than last year but blood count is still higher.
He does not want to quit shooting and casting.
Any ideas on what is happening and why and what else he can do to reduce the count.?


First guess would be that the area is already seriously contaminated with lead residue. Try casting somewhere else and don't go into that room for a couple months, then get tested again.
Does he keep the temperature under control so it doesn't get too hot?
Does handle the bullets without gloves?

Until he works out the source I would make sure no kids are around the area, lead exposure has serious consequences for young people.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jul 2020, 2:50 pm

.60 umol/L Is considered highish. At this point He should probably stop casting for a while. He needs the levels to come down. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/topic/lead

(Lead risk work is any work that will likely cause blood lead levels of a worker to exceed 20 µg/dL (0.97 µmol/L), or 5 µg/dL (0.24 µmol/L) for females of reproductive capacity.)

RISKS

lead is a toxic substance that can accumulate in the body over time
• lead can affect the nervous system, the kidneys, and can interfere with the body’s ability to make haemoglobin
• there are some reports which suggest that lead may adversely affect the reproductive systems of both males and females
• fetuses and infants are particularly susceptible to the effects of lead, therefore employees who are pregnant or breastfeeding may need to be excluded from working in a lead-risk job if their blood lead levels exceed prescribed limits; lead-risk jobs are jobs that may expose employees to high levels of lead

HOW DOES IT GET IN THE BODY?
Via the mouth when eating.smoking or handling materials
Via the lungs when in close proximity to very fine dust or vapours.

PREVENTION
Gloves
Washing hands and clothing (Practice good hygiene)
Good ventilation
Never eat or smoke when working with lead containing materials.(washing hands first)
Wearing a P3 respirator/mask when sweeping and casting is recommended

The above assumes you do a lot of casting.

Gloves, hygiene and good ventilation are the main ones.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Blr243 » 14 Jul 2020, 6:08 pm

I have heard that painters sanding old lead based paint develop flu like symptoms when they get too much exposure to it
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jul 2020, 6:38 pm

Blr243 wrote:I have heard that painters sanding old lead based paint develop flu like symptoms when they get too much exposure to it



They certainly had a significant exposure and at risk.
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Re: lead exposure in shooters

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jul 2020, 7:01 pm

I saw a couple of foxes last week that were suffering from lead poisoning. They did not inhale it, I believe the particle size was about 50 grains.
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