Hey want to see how a police state starts?

[bladeracer]

if they have to shoot i hope its to kill

As far as I'm aware any situation calling for deadly force essentially requires shooting to kill. If you still have the option to shoot other than to kill the assailant then the situation probably doesn't call for deadly force.

[Peeds13]

It's terrible times we are living in, government is definitely getting more and more power and it seems the majority are more than happy to let it happen.
If people speed they can have their car confiscated, if people swear they can be arrested. Australia likes to be seen as a free country but it's far from it.

[bladeracer]

It's terrible times we are living in, government is definitely getting more and more power and it seems the majority are more than happy to let it happen.
If people speed they can have their car confiscated, if people swear they can be arrested. Australia likes to be seen as a free country but it's far from it.

I blame the universities - they just breed a bunch of anti's nowadays.

[Peeds13]

Yer id agree with that

[Oldbloke]

Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between

In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol

Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition.

I have no problems if police shoot terrorist inorder to protect a citizen or them selves.

I do have issues where people are shot for less than life threatening situations. E. G just breaking in to your house. Therefore I'm not in favour of adopting laws similar to the USA.

And they are in no position to lecture is on gun laws given the very high rates of murders/shootings.

They need to have a good look at social welfare system in my view.

Having said that some of our gun laws are pretty stupid.

Just expressing an opinion.

[Ben78]

If people speed they can have their car confiscated.

How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....

[bladeracer]

If people speed they can have their car confiscated.

How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....

I would hope the first time such a thing occurs the officer spends a very, very long time in jail. I think we have sufficient checks to prevent this sort of thing. Even a known terrorist can't be shot under the new laws if he's not an immediate threat to somebody.

[bladeracer]

In Vic we have had a number of people shot dead for really not life threatening circumstances. This was a while ago and since then the police have been given pepper spray. I still think though they could have shot some of those people in the leg as they were really close shots. Its not that hard to aim low. your training might have said otherwise but commonsense and being able to think for your self should be able to over ride that.

If you have enough time to take a non-lethal shot, why the hell are you shooting at them?

[Cryptic]

In Vic we have had a number of people shot dead for really not life threatening circumstances. This was a while ago and since then the police have been given pepper spray. I still think though they could have shot some of those people in the leg as they were really close shots. Its not that hard to aim low. your training might have said otherwise but commonsense and being able to think for your self should be able to over ride that.

If you have ever viewed or undertaken training in engagement be it military, police or even security you will understand that drawing the weapon in the 1st place is one of the last levels of defence therefore targeting a limb is not the outcome of use.
I was trained in a 5 levels of force escalation basis myself and if you were targeting a limb it would not be with a firearm.

[Gwion]

Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between

In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol

Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition.

Not so much of shooting someone willing to shoot them, usually they just shoot crazy people with knives.

I get where you're coming from but deadly force is deadly force. There's not much more deadly than a knife in the hands of a nutter!

As for targeting a limb. Coppers are trained for centre of visible mass because less chance of missing and hitting an unintended target. So many real reasons they are trained that way, one of which being loss of fine motor skills under stress.

My joke about VicPol was from back in the 80's (and earlier) when their response to any armed threat was shoot 'em dead. I remember when I first moved to Melb and got back home from school to the whole area cordoned due to that hit man being shot by coppers in a flat in Carlton. It was about 50m from my place, just around the corner in Drummond St.

[Archie]

If people speed they can have their car confiscated.

How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....

The new law requires the police commissioner to declare an incident a terrorist event, before they pull the trigger. If he hasn't done that, the laws are exactly the same as they are now. And I reckon he's a little busy to hang around with Highway patrol speed traps waiting to sign death warrants because someone's doing 10km over in a school zone. But don't let that get in the way of your paranoia.

[Daddybang]

If people speed they can have their car confiscated.

How long before a speeding motorist is shot and the cop claims "I thought they were a terrorist" suddenly we have the USA problem of colours shooting first, asking questions later, and still getting off scott free, because now the law is on their side....

The new law requires the police commissioner to declare an incident a terrorist event, before they pull the trigger. If he hasn't done that, the laws are exactly the same as they are now. And I reckon he's a little busy to hang around with Highway patrol speed traps waiting to sign death warrants because someone's doing 10km over in a school zone. But don't let that get in the way of your paranoia.

That's correct, the proposed changes only affect situations such as the lindt café siege not general duties coppers or even incidents such as the siege in south qld just recently

[happyhunter]

What did the police say in the aftermath of the shooting?

The Met police commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, told a press conference that the dead man “was challenged and refused to obey police instructions”, while Scotland Yard said his “clothing and behaviour at the station added to their suspicions”.

These claims were all later found to be false. Blair admitted the force had made a “serious mistake” in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... s-answered

All shoot-to-kill law does is enable authorities to execute any member of the public with impunity by removing any responsibility for the action. This bloke was on his way to work and got shot dead for it.

[<<Genesis93>>]

This is nonsense.... the popo ALWAYS had shoot-to-kill privileges.... if they shot you, whos going to argue?? They'll just argue it was a life and death situation...... this is all a smokescreen, go to do with the NSW-Po, not taking action with MONIS in the gun-sight FOR A WHOLE DAY......remember Mister sniper set up in the ch7 office..... yeah.

[Member-Deleted]

I agree with Genesis93,"F%%%kn crap".

Why call the the d**khead snipers if they were never going to be used.
NSW cops Wankers.I bet if one of the Snipers had the balls to take the shoot I bet he would have got the best defence money
could buy for free of charge off the poor women barrister that got killed by the f&&k wit NSW police force.
This is the 21st century terrorists have been around for years. Australia in general imports all these F%%ks
under the guise of the "humanitarian Act" and they are terrorists.
If the wanker Police commissioner declares a Terrorist incident then the Army takes over end of story,The State Cops stand down.Arming these Idiot state police with extra automatic weapons what a BIG MISTAKE.

[Professor Chaos]

I think the biggest difference here is that Australians must not suffer from the same inadequacies that Americans seem to and these kinds of posts are just fear mongering based in fantasy rather than fiction.
In general terms we aren't worried that the "nasty government" is ever going to go into full militia mode, raid everyones homes, or drag people into the street, or imprison them unjustly.
In fact, "in general terms", anyone with these types of concerns would be classified very close to paranoid/delusional and bordering on having mental health issues.

[juststarting]

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

[Gwion]

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

My thoughts exactly.....
s**t! what was that ???!

[juststarting]

s**t! what was that ???!

...indication that your shotgun needs cleaning? ROFL

There was a helicopter doing circles for 40 minutes last night just above my place, so I got a sudden urge to at 12am to clean my 44 lol. And look at that, right next to the ammo locker. But I was too lazy, so I just watched YouTube. Straya! LOL

[Yipikaye]

I think the biggest difference here is that Australians must not suffer from the same inadequacies that Americans seem to and these kinds of posts are just fear mongering based in fantasy rather than fiction.

True. But remember we didn't have a civil war or fight for our independence there are often historical facts behind culture.

Wow that's deep for me. /gets beer

[wrenchman]

trust is earned politicians dont tend to do well in that area

[Daddybang]

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

That's a fact.

trust is earned politicians dont tend to do well in that area

And that's another one

[<<Genesis93>>]

....In fact, "in general terms", anyone with these types of concerns would be classified very close to paranoid/delusional and bordering on having mental health issues.

Probably like anyone who in 1910 would have suggested that in this decade our government will take us into the greatest conflagration the world has yet seen, 20million will die and maps all around the world will be rewritten..... right?

The present situation applying to firearm owners (to use the example) is that once we 'accept' the licence condition we're effectively agreeing to the imposition of martial law, where many of our right are relinquished.... such as searches, entry to our home or place of business without warrant, loss of property for many reasons etc.... such provision do NOT apply to other classes of people..... but that is probably just my mental illness playing up again.

[Jandamurra]

....In fact, "in general terms", anyone with these types of concerns would be classified very close to paranoid/delusional and bordering on having mental health issues.

Probably like anyone who in 1910 would have suggested that in this decade our government will take us into the greatest conflagration the world has yet seen, 20million will die and maps all around the world will be rewritten..... right?

The present situation applying to firearm owners (to use the example) is that once we 'accept' the licence condition we're effectively agreeing to the imposition of martial law, where many of our right are relinquished.... such as searches, entry to our home or place of business without warrant, loss of property for many reasons etc.... such provision do NOT apply to other classes of people..... but that is probably just my mental illness playing up again.

Right on.
I'm saying a similar thing in the thread about crossbows.

[Jandamurra]

Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between

In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol

Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition.

I have no problems if police shoot terrorist inorder to protect a citizen or them selves.

I do have issues where people are shot for less than life threatening situations. E. G just breaking in to your house. Therefore I'm not in favour of adopting laws similar to the USA.

And they are in no position to lecture is on gun laws given the very high rates of murders/shootings.

They need to have a good look at social welfare system in my view.

Having said that some of our gun laws are pretty stupid.

Just expressing an opinion.

You wrote:
And they are in no position to lecture is on gun laws given the very high rates of murders/shootings
See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate .

[Archie]

Crim yells aloha snackbar -terrorist
Crim yells I hate pigs - no terrorist
Hell of a Grey area in between

In VIC crim yells... Pew pew pew pew pew follows. Lol

Haha...

Yep. VicPol have never had much in the way of qualms when it comes to shooting to kill. It's kind'a a proud tradition.

I have no problems if police shoot terrorist inorder to protect a citizen or them selves.

I do have issues where people are shot for less than life threatening situations. E. G just breaking in to your house. Therefore I'm not in favour of adopting laws similar to the USA.

And they are in no position to lecture is on gun laws given the very high rates of murders/shootings.

They need to have a good look at social welfare system in my view.

Having said that some of our gun laws are pretty stupid.

Just expressing an opinion.

You wrote:
And they are in no position to lecture is on gun laws given the very high rates of murders/shootings
See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate .

So... are you saying that the US murder rate isn't that high? It's 5 x that of Australia, UK, New Zealand... by far the highest of any developed country. Implying that the US murder rate isn't high because it's not as terrible as literally the worst places on the planet, is like saying a person with the flu isn't sick because he doesn't have Ebola.

[juststarting]

Think there are 2 points here... 1 - Archie's, spot on. It's the highest murder rate of developed countries. That's bad. Also, some of the highest of undeveloped lawless countries, that's really bad.

The other point, is that you fools are arguing that Australia is not a police state. If police enforce the law that they made up, it's a police state. Everyone is sadly correct here.

[<<Genesis93>>]

If I was a (US) American, i would be extremely annoyed when the world seems to classify the whole as 'one' when describing the murder rate.... its easy, however simplistic..I've goner over it in details, but I'm a Nazi so you'd expect me to bring race into it......

The states with the highest black population have the highest murder rate.....states with the highest white have the lowest..... thats an indisputable fact... oh, its a result of the socio-economic factors.. is that a cause or effect....

The Washington DC has rate of 15.9/100k, thats worse than most other nations in the world... it has a black population of 49%. So thats almost 4 times the national average....homicide and also coincidentally, 4x the national average black population....

White states have homicide rates similar to our 'white' states while the NT has a rate about 6 times our national average AND higher than ALL BUT 3 US states!

of course all this feeds into the police state necessity and build up as it does here.... we will within 2 yrs I'd say, see GD cops in not only NSW (as we know) but also Vic and other states more often toting semi-auto rifles (theyre only assault weapons when we want them).... APC type vehicles, more and more public spaces cordoned off with more police 'out there' visually.... when all that was needed to prevent this scenario, was to entrust the safety of the public .... with the public... concealed carry by those bona fide among us.... but that is not what the Police (union) want, so No no to that.

[GLS_1956]

Homicide is death from other than natural causes. Intentional homicide leaves out suicide, manslaughter, and accidental, that leaves murder, self-defense, those killed by law enforcement and execution.

The MURDER rate in the USA continues to go down as gun ownership rises.

[happyhunter]

The states with the highest black population have the highest murder rate.....states with the highest white have the lowest..... thats an indisputable fact... oh, its a result of the socio-economic factors.. is that a cause or effect....

There was a time during the 1990s in Australia where Alice Springs the worlds highest murder rate per capita and it was due to black on black killings.