Should we be Alarmed?

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Jun 2017, 9:47 am

An article by Stephen Kinzer in the Boston Globe.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/201 ... torey.html

Damn. That link does not seem to be working, however there is a heading, "Saudi Arabia is Destabilizing the World" that can be found by scrolling down the header page but it is Not under "OPINIONS".
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Last edited by Wm.Traynor on 13 Jun 2017, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wm.Traynor
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1644
Queensland

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Supaduke » 13 Jun 2017, 9:52 am

Link seems to be broken
Supaduke
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1230
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by YoungSC » 13 Jun 2017, 10:06 am

YoungSC
Private
Private
 
Posts: 61
-

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Chronos » 13 Jun 2017, 10:11 am

Link hits a paywall for me

Chronos
User avatar
Chronos
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2082
New South Wales

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by pete1 » 13 Jun 2017, 10:45 am

Here you go if link continues to not work

JUST A FEW months ago, the governor of Indonesia’s largest city, Jakarta, seemed headed for easy re-election despite the fact that he is a Christian in a mostly Muslim country. Suddenly everything went violently wrong. Using the pretext of an offhand remark the governor made about the Koran, masses of enraged Muslims took to the streets to denounce him. In short order he lost the election, was arrested, charged with blasphemy, and sentenced to two years in prison.

This episode is especially alarming because Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim country, has long been one of its most tolerant. Indonesian Islam, like most belief systems on that vast archipelago, is syncretic, gentle, and open-minded. The stunning fall of Jakarta’s governor reflects the opposite: intolerance, sectarian hatred, and contempt for democracy. Fundamentalism is surging in Indonesia. This did not happen naturally.

Saudi Arabia has been working for decades to pull Indonesia away from moderate Islam and toward the austere Wahhabi form that is state religion in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis’ campaign has been patient, multi-faceted, and lavishly financed. It mirrors others they have waged in Muslim countries across Asia and Africa.

Successive American presidents have assured us that Saudi Arabia is our friend and wishes us well. Yet we know that Osama bin Laden and most of his 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, and that, as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton wrote in a diplomatic cable eight years ago, “Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide.”

Recent events in Indonesia shine a light on a Saudi project that is even more pernicious than financing terrorists. Saudi Arabia has used its wealth, much of which comes from the United States, to turn entire nations into hotbeds of radical Islam. By refusing to protest or even officially acknowledge this far-reaching project, we finance our own assassins — and global terror.

The center of Saudi Arabia’s campaign to convert Indonesians to Wahhabi Islam is a tuition-free university in Jakarta known by the acronym LIPIA. All instruction is in Arabic, given mainly by preachers from Saudi Arabia and nearby countries. Genders are kept apart; strict dress codes are enforced; and music, television, and “loud laughter” are forbidden. Students learn an ultra-conservative form of Islam that favors hand amputation for thieves, stoning for adulterers, and death for gays and blasphemers.

Many of the students come from the more than 100 boarding schools Saudi Arabia supports in Indonesia, or have attended one of the 150 mosques that Saudis have built there. The most promising are given scholarships to study in Saudi Arabia, from which they return fully prepared to wreak social, political, and religious havoc in their homeland. Some promote terror groups like Hamas Indonesia and the Islamic Defenders Front, which did not exist before the Saudis arrived.

Eager to press his advantage, King Salman of Saudi Arabia made a nine-day trip to Indonesia in March, accompanied by an entourage of 1,500. The Saudis agreed to allow more than 200,000 Indonesians to make the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca each year — more than come from any other country — and sought permission to open new branches of their LIPIA university. Some Indonesians are pushing back against the Saudi assault on their traditional values, but it is difficult to deny permission for new religious schools when the state is not able to provide decent secular alternatives. In Indonesia, as in other countries where the Saudis are actively promoting Wahhabism — including Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bosnia — the weakness and corruption of central governments create pools of rootless unemployed who are easily seduced by the promises of free food and a place in God’s army.

The surging fundamentalism that is transforming Indonesia teaches several lessons. First is one that we should already have learned, about the nature of the Saudi government. It is an absolute monarchy supported by one of the world’s most reactionary religious sects. It gives clerics large sums to promote their anti-Western, anti-Christian, anti-Semitic brand of religious militancy abroad. In exchange, the clerics refrain from criticizing the Saudi monarchy or its thousands of high-living princes. Saudis with close ties to the ruling family give crucial support to groups like Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and ISIS. This fact should be at the front of our minds whenever we consider our policy toward the Middle East — including when we decide whether to side with the Saudis in their new dispute with neighboring Qatar.

Saudi Arabia’s success in reshaping Indonesia shows the importance of the global battle over ideas. Many in Washington consider spending for cultural and other “soft power” projects to be wasteful. The Saudis feel differently. They pour money and resources into promoting their world view. We should do the same.

The third lesson that today’s Indonesia teaches is about the vulnerability of democracy. In 1998 Indonesia’s repressive military dictatorship gave way to a new system, based on free elections, that promised civil and political rights for all. Radical preachers who would previously have been imprisoned for whipping up religious hatred found themselves free spread their poison. Democracy enables them to forge giant mobs that demand death for apostates. Their political parties campaign in democratic elections for the right to come to power and crush democracy. This is a sobering reality for those who believe that one political system is best for all countries under all circumstances.

The Saudi campaign to radicalize global Islam also shows that earth-shaking events often happen slowly and quietly. The press, focused intently on reporting today’s news, often misses deeper and more important stories. Historians of journalism sometimes point to the northward “great migration” of African-Americans after World War II as an epochal story that few journalists noticed because it was a slow process rather than one-day news event.

The same is true of Saudi Arabia’s long campaign to pull the world’s 1.8 billion Muslims back to the 7th century. We barely notice it, but every day, from Mumbai to Manchester, we feel its effects.
22LR
223
308
12G
12G
12G
User avatar
pete1
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 390
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by pete1 » 13 Jun 2017, 10:47 am

Good article its a scary reality that some could be influencing whole nations to go down a violent path rather then a peaceful path.
22LR
223
308
12G
12G
12G
User avatar
pete1
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 390
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Daddybang » 13 Jun 2017, 11:41 am

Yep look at Acheh province :unknown:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2012
Queensland

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Jun 2017, 11:54 am

Just let me know when it's safe to come out from under the bed. :drinks:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Jun 2017, 11:59 am

Thankyou, YoungSC and pete1 for your efforts. Now it is there for everyone to read :D :thumbsup:
Wm.Traynor
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1644
Queensland

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Jun 2017, 12:37 pm

I'm going to stock up on ammo and baked beans and ****** paper, could be a long wait under the bed again. :lol:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by MalleeFarmer » 13 Jun 2017, 2:54 pm

Very Interesting Read. And Not at all surprising.
"Agriculture is our wisest pursuit, because it will in the end contribute most to real wealth, good morals and happiness." Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
MalleeFarmer
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 627
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by colinbentley » 13 Jun 2017, 3:38 pm

All politicians in the west with the exception of Donald Trump are blind or choose to be blind to the threat of Islam. When they finally wake up and decide to do something about it it may be too late.If you thing I am anti Muslim and anti Islam you bet your balls I am.
colinbentley
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 113
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by MalleeFarmer » 13 Jun 2017, 4:34 pm

colinbentley wrote:All politicians in the west with the exception of Donald Trump are blind or choose to be blind to the threat of Islam. When they finally wake up and decide to do something about it it may be too late.If you thing I am anti Muslim and anti Islam you bet your balls I am.


I agree on all points but one. I am anti Islam.. I am NOT anti Muslim..

I cannot for the life of me be anti People. Muslims that have been sucked into this radical Islam (which yes I believe is Islam as Mohammed practiced it) are in fact people who have been seriously misled. When a person has been misled rather than hate or be against them are you not better off attempting to show them their errors? Or correct their thinking? Have you heard of imam Tahwidi (I think that is how it's spelt) anyway he is a South Australian Muslim Imam. He admits that Islam is a warmongering religion he also admits that it has been for 1400 years and that is how it spread all across the Mid East and Asia, at the point of the sword he even admits that the Koran and other Islamic books call for the murder and torture of those who do not follow Islam. He wants a reformation of Islam. Unfortunately mainstream media all but ignore him and other extreme Muslim clerics call him a liar. I believe many maybe even most Muslims are peaceful people who want to live in peace but on the flip side of this there are many who are being persuaded that the darker side of Islam is for their benefit and are taking on many of these extreme tenets of Islam.
"Agriculture is our wisest pursuit, because it will in the end contribute most to real wealth, good morals and happiness." Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
MalleeFarmer
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 627
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by colinbentley » 13 Jun 2017, 4:41 pm

All these so called moderate Muslims are strangely silent after terrorist attacks. To me they are all the same. Islam or Muslim make s no difference.
colinbentley
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 113
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Cryptic » 13 Jun 2017, 5:28 pm

So when is Trump starting the cowboys and muslims game then.
Cryptic
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 276
Queensland

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by MalleeFarmer » 13 Jun 2017, 6:45 pm

colinbentley wrote:All these so called moderate Muslims are strangely silent after terrorist attacks. To me they are all the same. Islam or Muslim make s no difference.


I agree that they are very quiet and I am in no way absolving them of the fact and I will say that imam Tawhidi is very vocal against these attacks and the general Islamic community's responses and or lack there of. He was even very critical of Yasmin whatshername for being so disrespectful of those Anzac soldiers that caught for her freedom in this country by hijacking their day to fit her agenda. And called for her sacking. He is very proud to be Aussie he celebrates Anzac Day and other Australian holidays. And receives much flak from the general Islamic community for doing so. All I'm sayin is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"Agriculture is our wisest pursuit, because it will in the end contribute most to real wealth, good morals and happiness." Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
MalleeFarmer
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 627
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Jun 2017, 7:42 pm

colinbentley 3:38pm
My take from the article was that SA is helping to radicalise Indonesians. I think, in light of the recent $US donation to Saudi military resources, that Donald might be "blind" to that, for whatever reason.
The questions as I see them are 1) What are the Indos doing about the SA influence on its countrymen? 2) What is Oz doing about it all?
Wm.Traynor
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1644
Queensland

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by WatchyShooter » 13 Jun 2017, 9:22 pm

MalleeFarmer wrote:
colinbentley wrote:All these so called moderate Muslims are strangely silent after terrorist attacks. To me they are all the same. Islam or Muslim make s no difference.


I agree that they are very quiet and I am in no way absolving them of the fact and I will say that imam Tawhidi is very vocal against these attacks and the general Islamic community's responses and or lack there of. He was even very critical of Yasmin whatshername for being so disrespectful of those Anzac soldiers that caught for her freedom in this country by hijacking their day to fit her agenda. And called for her sacking. He is very proud to be Aussie he celebrates Anzac Day and other Australian holidays. And receives much flak from the general Islamic community for doing so. All I'm sayin is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Both your posts hit the nail on the head, I’ve never had an issue with Muslims, I have an issue with any religious group that radicalises young children and promotes hate and terror.

Just a few years ago I walked past a man standing on a platform in a shopping centre preaching that God hates gays and that we are all doomed unless we accept Jesus Christ.

Every religion has its extremists, those who interpret their religious texts for their own benefit.

I love Muslims like this Imam, being South Australian I’m very proud to call him and any other Western Muslims Australians & am always happy to see him mentioned.
We need to show support to these Muslims as when they do speak out about Islam they are shunned by the community.

Its why the media and government has tried to seperate the issues currently present in society and use kid gloves when handling them.

They think we can’t have a discussion about Radical Islamic Extremism without getting confused and attacking Islam as a entire religion.

It’s something we need to work towards as a entire country otherwise we won’t be able to have a discussion about these issues before it’s too late.
Firearm-less LAFO!
New shooter, guns to come soon!
WatchyShooter
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 141
South Australia

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Gun-nut » 13 Jun 2017, 11:03 pm

And under the labour government these very same people were allowed to enter our borders.
Gun-nut
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 428
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Gwion » 14 Jun 2017, 9:13 am

colinbentley wrote:All these so called moderate Muslims are strangely silent after terrorist attacks. To me they are all the same. Islam or Muslim make s no difference.


I think you will find that they are not silent and that the main stream media choose not to give them a voice and that the govt also ignores them as it is not convenient for their propagandist agenda and narrative. There are Muslim groups out there ectively campaigning against radicalism. Man Monis' mosque contacted authorities with concerns about him; they were ignored. Etc, etc..

This article shows two things to me:
1- the threat is not Islam itself in its current modern interpretation. As practiced by the vast majority of Muslims but is instead the active campaign by the Saudi Monarchy. Of all the countries I the Miele East that have been invaded and occupied in the last 15 years, perhaps Saudi should have been the sole focus instead!
2- the U.S. Will not engage in a soft bAttle for hearts and minds as described I the article because there is no profit in it. They don't want to see radical Islam stopped, they want it to continue just enough to keep the populace scared enough to support the continued military action. This brings huge profit from sale of weapons to the U.S. And profit from increased price of oil to the Saudis. It is mutually beneficial to both parties to continue this charade of fighting radical Islam and the real victims are moderate modern Muslims who are unquestionably suffering the most with the impact of war, terrorism and extremist sects violently imposing their beliefs.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by Gwion » 14 Jun 2017, 9:23 am

WatchyShooter wrote:
They think we can’t have a discussion about Radical Islamic Extremism without getting confused and attacking Islam as a entire religion.

It’s something we need to work towards as a entire country otherwise we won’t be able to have a discussion about these issues before it’s too late.


"They" don't want the discussion to be about radical Islam as a fringe movement within greater Islam, "they" want us all scared enough to support continued military action and so the narrative to delivered so as make it difficult for the "masses" to differentiate between radical Islam and it's true victims: moderate, everyday, majority Muslims.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by pete1 » 14 Jun 2017, 2:20 pm

Gun-nut wrote:And under the labour government these very same people were allowed to enter our borders.


Under a liberal government to. The howard government let Man Haron Monis into the country and ignored reports from Iran government that Man Haron Monis had links to terrorism. Liberal Labour all the same both stab us in the back.
22LR
223
308
12G
12G
12G
User avatar
pete1
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 390
Victoria

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by bullzeye » 14 Jun 2017, 2:30 pm

Saudi Arabia gets away with a lot of bad stuff, simply because they have so much $$ and particularly buy lots of American weapons..
User avatar
bullzeye
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 193
New South Wales

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by gazza » 14 Jun 2017, 4:49 pm

The Saudis have an insane drifting method if your looking for a laugh on youtube.
User avatar
gazza
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 156
South Australia

Re: Should we be Alarmed?

Post by MalleeFarmer » 14 Jun 2017, 8:19 pm

gazza wrote:The Saudis have an insane drifting method if your looking for a laugh on youtube.



Not on a pushy by any chance?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Agriculture is our wisest pursuit, because it will in the end contribute most to real wealth, good morals and happiness." Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
MalleeFarmer
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 627
Victoria


Back to top
 
Return to Firearms related media and politics