How dumb can a gun club be?

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by doc » 19 Nov 2017, 9:35 am

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/polic ... znsuf.html

Police are investigating the hacking of a gun club database that may have exposed where more than 1500 semi-automatic handguns are stored.

The private details of 540 members from the Port Melbourne club, including the types of weapons they owned, is believed to have been compromised this month



Please tell me that this article is grossly inaccurate, and that detailed records of who owns what firearms are not stored in the database. What possible good reason could a club have for maintaining their own database (which isn't legally required) to store this much detailed information on it's members.

Even if police and government are in denial of the risks involved surely gun clubs have better wisdom. As such I'm hoping that this is just a blown out of proportion article.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by trekin » 19 Nov 2017, 10:06 am

Don't know about Vic, but some State's laws do require clubs to keep pretty extensive databases on their members, and to have it ready for audit at anytime the registry asks for it. These types of databases have been a bone of contention for the above reason. Even a database that only has names and addresses, if hacked can give the crims a shopping list of potential suppliers.
Edit, It's not necessarily the law, but thein most cases, the policy of the respective registry.
Last edited by trekin on 19 Nov 2017, 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Wombat » 19 Nov 2017, 10:07 am

I think that if the guns are stored on site they would need to have a record of who owns each pistol.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by No1Mk3 » 19 Nov 2017, 11:20 am

G'day doc,
Since when was it NOT a legal requirement? LRD would slam any club that didn't have a complete record of all members and what they owned, how else do you fulfill reporting requirements? There is, however, a major internal fight going on at the club in question and there could be a whole lot more to this story than meets the eye. As for hacking, use good security and do what we do, keep the database on an offline hard drive.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Baronvonrort » 19 Nov 2017, 11:54 am

doc wrote:

Please tell me that this article is grossly inaccurate.


Don't believe everything you read in the paper.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Download » 19 Nov 2017, 12:40 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:G'day doc,
Since when was it NOT a legal requirement? LRD would slam any club that didn't have a complete record of all members and what they owned, how else do you fulfill reporting requirements? There is, however, a major internal fight going on at the club in question and there could be a whole lot more to this story than meets the eye. As for hacking, use good security and do what we do, keep the database on an offline hard drive.


Here in SA clubs have no requirement to know what guns club members own. My club president didn't even ask what gun I was buying when I asked him to sign off on the handgun chit.

I'm not sure why the club would need to know about handgun ownership to meet reporting requirements. It's the police who send out the renewal notices; they will know what you own and will know what you'll need to declare when you renew your licence.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by juststarting » 19 Nov 2017, 1:05 pm

Vic is a requirement I believe.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Archie » 19 Nov 2017, 5:23 pm

juststarting wrote:Vic is a requirement I believe.


That seems... very dumb. Surely the only people that would need that sort of information is the police, and that is what the registry is for?
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Post by brett1868 » 19 Nov 2017, 6:28 pm

St Mary's Pistol club in Sydney keeps no record of the number or type of pistols owned by their members. They do record your attendances based on type of pistol shot however for compliance requirements.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Baronvonrort » 19 Nov 2017, 6:55 pm

juststarting wrote:Vic is a requirement I believe.


Yep, it's a requirement in Vic.

123B Approved handgun target shooting clubs—Record keeping requirements

(1) In relation to any approved handgun target shooting match conducted by an approved handgun target shooting club, the club must keep a record of—
(a) the time and place of the match; and
(b) details of any handgun used by each person participating in the match; and
(c) the name and handgun licence number of each person participating in the match.


Page 184- http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/LTObjSt6.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/09C184D87048BD4ACA2579FF00167754/$FILE/96-66aa064%20authorised.pdf





If someone gets into club records in Vic they get a lot more than this.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by holden4th » 19 Nov 2017, 7:25 pm

If the club is also a registered dealer then yes, they do have to keep accurate records.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by doc » 20 Nov 2017, 11:58 am

If this is true, then I apologise to the club an apology for my subject line. Likewise - if the media report is grossly inaccurate and make, model and address were not stored.

I was given the original impression that pistol clubs in Vic only needed to submit the shooters name, license number, event shot and serial number of the firearm used for that event (for the detail of the handgun) - and that they were not required to have on record the make, model and address of storage which is why I had the "what the" moment.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Rikta » 20 Nov 2017, 3:50 pm

short answer - VERY

good reason I dont involve myself with clubs, too many wallflowers, know it alls, princesses and numpties
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by sungazer » 20 Nov 2017, 4:09 pm

If you want to shoot or own a handgun legally there is no other way.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Rikta » 20 Nov 2017, 7:27 pm

sungazer wrote:If you want to shoot or own a handgun legally there is no other way.



exactly why I dont bother with handguns
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by cflake » 20 Nov 2017, 7:47 pm

I joined this club a while ago and yes you must provide a full list (inc serial #) of all longarms and handguns when joining - I did join as both a pistol and rifle member as you can shoot riles in handgun calibres up to .357 mag on one of the ranges.

I did get the impression from some of the latest comms from the club that the 'hacking' involved one of the senior members (who didn't like the exec) copying or emailing an excel spreadsheet of email addresses and sending out email comms to the mailing list about:
- How the exec was renting the range at half price to his mates; and
- Buying trash revolvers for more than twice their real value to use a club guns.

Initially more comms went out saying only email addresses were stolen, no gun records but I suspect someone has got their panties in a twist and gone to the police/the age to get someone they don't like "in trouble".

It seems there are d**kheads at every club..
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Rikta » 20 Nov 2017, 9:30 pm

cflake wrote:It seems there are d**kheads at every club..


never a more true word spoken
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by doc » 21 Nov 2017, 11:20 am

cflake wrote:I joined this club a while ago and yes you must provide a full list (inc serial #) of all longarms and handguns when joining


It does sound then as though the club has overstepped it's requirements. The regulations only mention handguns.

I question why a club needs to keep more records on firearms than what is legally required. What benefit can come out of it? (Just like our current registry - it seems as though the potential for abuse is far greater than any benefit - especially if it's not legally required).
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by Gwion » 21 Nov 2017, 12:25 pm

doc wrote:
cflake wrote:I joined this club a while ago and yes you must provide a full list (inc serial #) of all longarms and handguns when joining


It does sound then as though the club has overstepped it's requirements. The regulations only mention handguns.

I question why a club needs to keep more records on firearms than what is legally required. What benefit can come out of it? (Just like our current registry - it seems as though the potential for abuse is far greater than any benefit - especially if it's not legally required).



Yep. I'd be steering well clear of these clubs. All you need to record in Tas, as a club, is Name and licence number of members. Dunno about handgun clubs but for rifles, this is all. As a club executive member, i wouldn't want the responsibility of being liable for any further sensitive info...
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by marksman » 22 Nov 2017, 7:13 am

I think the title should be "How dumb can a state be"
to expect a club to be able to keep all this info safe is asking for trouble and why would you want a club to keep this info for, what does it help :unknown:
its as bad as the Vic LRD letting the info out this year
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by doc » 22 Nov 2017, 4:46 pm

marksman wrote:I think the title should be "How dumb can a state be"


After a bit of research and what I can gather so far - I think it's both at fault.

I can't see that everything they've recorded (Make, Model, etc) is a requirement by VicPol. Especially for the longarms. This appears to be above and beyond what is required - and thus at the least reckless of the club to store the extra information that is not required.

However I also agree that the states are dumb for asking information to be stored as well. At the very least if they're not going to get rid of the registry -they should be asking for records stored that give them the information they require, but nothing else.

Firearm dealers could record the firearms license number of the person doing the transfer and omit name and address. VicPol can find out from that license number the rest of the details. They don't need the name and address recorded which opens up issues. That would make it far safer for us - but they seem as though they don't care about real security and real crims - they just want info on us, and crims finding and stealing firearms is apparently better than one legit shooter not being able to be tracked down as easy. :roll:

Same with clubs. Store the license number of the shooter and serial no of the gun if they really feel the need to. But full names, addresses, make and model numbers of firearms is straight out dangerous.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by shouta » 28 Nov 2017, 6:50 am

Even if the Club Database didn't have firearm information, it would have had Name, Address & other Contact Details.

So I would be very concerned if this database got into the wrong hands because there is a very good chance that by being a member of a pistol club there may be a very good chance that you actually own a gun and store it at the address listed on the database.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by bullzeye » 28 Nov 2017, 11:38 am

Some of the pistol clubs still operate in an old fashioned way. Yes they have to record all hand guns owned and their serial numbers.

But this information is stored in the Secretary's book and locked in the club safe after each meet.

Probably still the safest way to keep this kind of information. Too easy for computers and online systems to be hacked these days.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by No1Mk3 » 28 Nov 2017, 7:16 pm

G'day doc,
You are wrong. It IS a requirement, and it is one of my jobs, in conjunction with our Secretary, to do this.(Handguns only, for those who wonder). Firearms Act 1996 V.80, Part 6A, Division 1, Sections 123B and 123C. we must KEEP records of who, and their details re: licence, address etc, as well as attendance, details of firearms used etc. 123C are our annual reporting obligations, so we must KEEP all these records for at least 24 months. We have had numerous meetings with the various Inspectors in charge of LRD and the results are always the same, we MUST have this information and provide it when requested.As I posted before, never keep the database on a net connected device, never email info, transfer by hard copy in person or by USB.
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Re: How dumb can a gun club be?

Post by doc » 29 Nov 2017, 10:19 am

Hi No1,

Thanks for correcting me - I've been given the wrong information by the sounds of it.

I just don't get it. I've heard cops give people hard times because they have stickers on the backs of their vehicles "I shoot, I vote", etc saying that this gives information to people who might want to rob your place. (Which I understand their logic)...

But then there's laws that do just the same but worse: The VicPol registry, DEWLP registry for hunting licenses, firearm dealers, and now I find out gun clubs as well - all forced to store the critical information together on a multitude of people at various locations - all just opportunities waiting to be taken advantage of.

How can the government not see just how much risk this all adds for no benefit.
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