O'Reilly's in Thornbury robbed earlier today.

[Baronvonrort]

I don't think a court case involving criminals is what I want to compare to.

Self Defence Law in NSW - http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/view ... /s418.html

"the conduct is a reasonable response in the circumstances as he or she perceives them."

I think if someone is pointing a gun at you/ or shooting at you, a reasonable response is to do the same back..

Be great to read some cases on this. I'll try having a search around.

Just remember what happened to David Dunstan, do you think he would have been able to get his guns back without the deputy premier of NSW getting involved along with other shooting friendly groups?

[Daddybang]

Thanks for posting the link Baron
11 months in solitary?? Mick must not be liked much!!
(Or maybe it was to keep him safe )

[hobbit]

All guns recovered, six suspects arrested

http://www.news.com.au/national/breakin ... db9e03b95e

[Daddybang]

Only 37 guns
As I said above. The media don't let the truth get in the way of a good yarn!!!!

[YoungBuck]

Funny how 37 stolen handguns turned into 65...

[bigfellascott]

Looks like it was Middle Eastern Crime Gangs involved - I think 6 have been arrested!.

[juststarting]

...then released on bail and disappear. Same old story. Watch this space.

[anthillinside]

OK Mr. Big Ears,
ENFORECE your legislation.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/wp-conte ... Safety.pdf
If these Crims don't get 10 Years a piece. I wan't to know why.

[Wombat]

It is very rare for any legislation to be retrospective.

[anthillinside]

Cut it any way you like.
For a NON-prohibited Person possesing an unregistered handgun its 4 Years.
Thats just for possesing the gun, lest add armed robery to that.
and the will get oh .... about 3 years if they are very unlucky.
Here's the numbers https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.a ... 202014.pdf

Why do we bother?

[anthillinside]

Now this would be more like it.
go to the bottom.
http://www.firearmownersunited.com/2018 ... tim-blame/

[Wombat]

Cut it any way you like.

Its not a case of what I like at all, just the reason they will not be sentenced using laws that were not in place at the time of their offenses.
Personally I think 3-4 years is enough....for each stolen firearm so around 120 years plus the robbery charges.

[bullzeye]

Maybe if the owners/ employees of the gun shop got their security guard license they could legally defend themselves with a firearm - much like armaguard etc.

[Supaduke]

Maybe if the owners/ employees of the gun shop got their security guard license they could legally defend themselves with a firearm - much like armaguard etc.

And then there is a shootout in a suburban store, one robber gets taken out , one shop assistant dead and two bystanders. All for 'things'. Things can be replaced. Or better yet, they know the staff are armed so come in and pop the guy behind the counter straight away in case he gets heroic.

[juststarting]

Supaduke, so what's the difference between your statement and armed guards transporting money; or police having guns (where your scenario has played out at least twice, but from law enforcement, not crooks). Or armed security for politicians or... Your use case is universal, so it's all or none. Otherwise it seems unfair.

[Supaduke]

All I'm saying is more guns is not always the solution. Armed guards and cops train for those sort of scenarios.
Sales assistants are not necessarily of the correct mind set. Nor is it fair to ask staff to take on that sort of risk. Simple fact is carrying a firearm greatly increases your chances of being shot. I understand where people are coming from in regards to defending oneself. I have also had quite a few years experience in armed guard/cash escort work. I can tell you at least 30% , probably more , of people carrying firearms would absolutely go to water in any sort of event.

I can tell you if the one guy was armed in the shop, and four armed bandits stormed in , it would get very ugly.

I also bounced for quite a few years and could write a book on people's threat responses in dangerous situations.

90% of people are all talk. It is very difficult for the average person to really properly hurt or kill someone. This is from years of observational and personal experience. One or two anecdotes do not counter my argument either.

Adding more guns to dangerous situations , in reality , is rarely helpful.

Guns being stolen or not, they are still just things, no things are worth dieing for.

Too many guys watch too many movies and think it all just works out. Gunfights in shops.... No thank you.

Edit: Don't think for one moment this is an anti-gun sentiment. I love guns.... For sporting purposes. So don't bother going down the Fudd road.

Protecting life is a different matter so don't go down the home invaders comparison either.

Discuss.

[Gwion]

Totally with Supaduke in the idea that simple objects are always replaceable.

s**ty experience to go through but not as s**ty as getting shot, having a collegue shot or having to actually shoot someone over a shaped bit of metals.

[Lifesaride]

It’s a pretty tough situation.
People with any sort of weapon, break the law by walking into a legal business to steal more guns= In media/do Gooders eyes “guns are bad and need more regulation”

Or people walk into a legal business with armed sales people and a member of the public going about their day or even the criminal gets shot or killed= We get the same argument “guns are bad and need more regulation”

Australian firearm owners are constantly under attack because “guns are bad”, and “we don’t want to be like America.” It’s really a moot point, minus a few states and the US of A actually has a very low crime rate involving firearms, just like we here have a very low crime rate in instances where an armed guard is in attendance.

What’s the answer? I don’t know, as licensed firearm owners/users we are simply damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

[Bushie]

But if armagraurd weren't armed they most likely would get robbed far more often

If the general population is lead to believe that clerks at gun stores are armed
That would be a massive deterant

It's like people who bitch and moan about the registry, but BECAUSE the registry hasn't directly been used to solve a crime doesn't mean it's stopped 100's of crimes from happening in the first place

[Daddybang]

All I'm saying is more guns is not always the solution. Armed guards and cops train for those sort of scenarios.
.

I agree that anyone who is going to be armed needs to have the appropriate training afterall the only real difference between a soldier and a civvie is the training they've received.

[Oldbloke]

" minus a few states and the US of A actually has a very low crime rate involving firearms, just like we here have a very low crime rate "

That statement surprises me. So are you saying just a very few states account for the majority of firearm crime in the US?

When I last looked (from memory) at their stats per 100,000 head their rates were very high. Way higher than ours.

[juststarting]

Supaduke, f*** you and your common sense. LOL

Regardless of what I think (and yes, my views sometimes differ to sides of the argument I take, on occasion, because it's interesting to explore where it goes), there are few inherent flaws in your approach... I'll play devil's advocate when I get home

Discuss you want, discuss we shall!

[juststarting]

So are you saying just a very few states account for the majority of firearm crime in the US?

OB, in my limited exposure to their stats and undoubtedly biased, yes - it certainly looks that way.

[Wombat]

Objects are certainly replaceable, however I think firearms in Australia are a different type of object, especially Pistols. They are not being stolen for any reason other than to commit further crime,or terrorist acts either directly or to the people the thieves move them on to.
If any commercial object deserves an armed response to the threat of theft more than firearms I cannot think of it. Perhaps explosives.

[Wombat]

The dealer I bought my 1906 Winchester off was murdered for a pistol back in the late 80's or early 90's in Victoria. He was selling from home, had a setup under his house with safes etc.

[sungazer]

I think Superdukes points are very valid. Esp about asking or expecting salespeople to be put in that position. Like he said there are a certain type of people that are will and able to put their lives on the line and also be able to take someone else's life without hesitation. I am sure even some of those armed guards may turn to water as he stated if the situation presented itself.
Then even to armed guards in the store with sales people put those sales people in an environment that could become a shoot out , that's not fair and reasonable either.
So as much as what I would like to do, I think his response is the correct procedure. Comply with any demands and do not escalate the situation. They can be caught at a more suitable time and place by professionals.

[juststarting]

Foundamentaly flawed direction, Wombat. It is the responsibility of law enforcement to protect against, well, illegal things (what you've described). Thats what taxes pay for. It is absolutely not the responsibility of civilians to put their lives at risk, without being paid for it and without having an established support network (legal, medical, counseling, anti corruption and internal investigations... You know, like the police, army, etc).

[Daddybang]

I don't know how feasible it would be in the cities but one of the stores in cairns has plexiglass(?) Doors that ya gotta be buzzed thru. If they don't know you they will sometimes ask for your license before they open up.

[Wombat]

Foundamentaly flawed direction, Wombat. It is the responsibility of law enforcement to protect against, well, illegal things (what you've described). Thats what taxes pay for. It is absolutely not the responsibility of civilians to put their lives at risk, without being paid for it and without having an established support network (legal, medical, counseling, anti corruption and internal investigations... You know, like the police, army, etc).

So cash deserves an armed presence because? People could get papercuts?

[Lifesaride]

" minus a few states and the US of A actually has a very low crime rate involving firearms, just like we here have a very low crime rate "

That statement surprises me. So are you saying just a very few states account for the majority of firearm crime in the US?

When I last looked (from memory) at their stats per 100,000 head their rates were very high. Way higher than ours.

That’s exactly what I am saying, rather bluntly, from memory, take said three states out of 52, (can’t remember which three off the top of my head, but they have strict or stricter controls in place than us Australians) out of the equation and America ranks lower in gun crime than even our great country