Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

News and events in the media and political arena relating to firearms.

Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by straightshooter » 21 Feb 2018, 8:03 am

Link to article

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02- ... mmon-sense

Contains interesting factoids with what I consider reasoned arguements.
I haven't listened to the attached podcast so I make no comment on it.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Baronvonrort » 21 Feb 2018, 8:14 am

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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by juststarting » 21 Feb 2018, 9:39 am

Natural news website? Are you for real? This is a website that was intentionally delisted by Google for spreading malicious, false and fake information. Like natural cures for cancer and how vaccinations... Anyway, you get the point. Nothing on that website can be trusted.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Archie » 22 Feb 2018, 7:44 am

Zerohedge started life as a finance website, and well known within the industry for being a well of conspiracy theories. It's a good quick test to see if anyone knows what they are talking about in finance - when they start citing zerohedge articles you know you don't need to waste any further time listening to their opinions. Nice to see they are branching out to other areas.

And incidentally, Japan "is not a violent culture to begin with"? I'd like to see someone tell my grandfather that... not to mention large parts of South East Asia, China, Korea etc. And I suppose the Yakuza get what they want by way of a cup of tea and a chat. Regardless of what you think about the laws issue, the guy who wrote that article is a fool.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by gazza » 22 Feb 2018, 9:17 pm

juststarting wrote:Natural news website? Are you for real? This is a website that was intentionally delisted by Google for spreading malicious, false and fake information. Like natural cures for cancer and how vaccinations... Anyway, you get the point. Nothing on that website can be trusted.

The internet. In no time at all you can look like an expert.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Newgunguy » 23 Feb 2018, 3:07 am

Well I read through the zerohedge article and that is basically a lot of what is being talked about here in the U.S. One thing though that I'm sure you guys don't see are all the stories here of parents neglecting and murdering their kids on a daily basis. Sometimes the stories make national news but if one were to look at each state, or area of a state, you would see daily stories about this. We as a nation, society and even a culture here are falling apart at the seems and the only thing the liberals care about is letting people identify as a fish and getting rid of all firearms!

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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Feb 2018, 6:55 am

"They guy might be a cock but he makes a good point."

No criminal checks, no training, no consideration of mental disorders, no storage requirement.
No medicare, almost no assistance for the unemployed, almost no old age pension, a very few own almost everything. High drug use, few people own there own home. Oh and Hollywood makes it look normal to kill people.

Add it all up and there would be a hell of a lot of pissed of nutters.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by wanneroo » 23 Feb 2018, 1:16 pm

Oldbloke wrote:"They guy might be a cock but he makes a good point."

No criminal checks, no training, no consideration of mental disorders, no storage requirement.
No medicare, almost no assistance for the unemployed, almost no old age pension, a very few own almost everything. High drug use, few people own there own home. Oh and Hollywood makes it look normal to kill people.

Add it all up and there would be a hell of a lot of pissed of nutters.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong.


Yes you are wrong and uninformed.

First understand in the USA there is federal gun law, state gun law and local gun laws(depending on the state, some states have a preemption statute).

"No criminal checks" Incorrect. In order to sell firearms for profit, you must have a Federal Firearms License(FFL). Anyone, anywhere in the USA that purchases a gun at an FFL must fill out a ATF Form 4473. Copy of which is here:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473- ... 9/download

Upon submission of this form, the dealer calls the FBI NICS hotline with your information. If you have a clear record approval is granted. If you do not or have something that is not clear, the dealer is not allowed to process the transaction. Lying on the Form 4473 is a crime with a 5 year prison sentence. Also various state laws and forms may need to be submitted or followed as well.

"No Training" Incorrect. Organizations like the CMP and NRA provide extensive subsidized education in all sorts of firearms and safety across the USA. In addition depending on state and local laws, additional training may be required to obtain concealed permits. In addition there is also an extensive firearms training market in the USA.

"No consideration of mental disorders" Incorrect. One night of involuntary commitment bans you for life from firearms ownership in the USA and as long as organizations submit those records to NICS, you'll be in the database. Protective abuse orders and other similar issues and medications also ban you as well.

"No storage requirement". Depends on the state and locality. Personally I do not need big government telling me how to store my firearms at home.

"No Medicare". Incorrect. Old folks end up on Medicare at 65 and poor folks by the tens of millions have access to Medicaid.

"Almost no assistance to the unemployed" I have to laugh and roll on the ground for that one. We have tens of millions on EBT food and cash assistance, WIC, rent assistance, energy bill assistance, unemployment insurance. Poor Americans are dying of obesity not starvation. Over 100 million Americans get some form of Federal assistance. The welfare state is bloated and wasteful.

"Almost no old age pension". Wut? Every American that works for someone or is self employed must pay Social Security tax. You become eligible in your 60s and once you choose to take it, you get a check for the rest of your life every month.

"A very few own almost everything" Not from what I have seen, no.

"High drug use". Too much for sure. But life is about choices and some chose to make poor ones.

"Few people own their home". Actually the USA has some of the highest rates of home ownership around.

"Hollywood makes it normal to kill people" If there is one thing some Australians don't understand is that Hollywood is not America.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by trekin » 23 Feb 2018, 1:48 pm

wanneroo wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:"They guy might be a cock but he makes a good point."

No criminal checks, no training, no consideration of mental disorders, no storage requirement.
No medicare, almost no assistance for the unemployed, almost no old age pension, a very few own almost everything. High drug use, few people own there own home. Oh and Hollywood makes it look normal to kill people.

Add it all up and there would be a hell of a lot of pissed of nutters.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong.


Yes you are wrong and uninformed.

First understand in the USA there is federal gun law, state gun law and local gun laws(depending on the state, some states have a preemption statute).

"No criminal checks" Incorrect. In order to sell firearms for profit, you must have a Federal Firearms License(FFL). Anyone, anywhere in the USA that purchases a gun at an FFL must fill out a ATF Form 4473. Copy of which is here:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473- ... 9/download

Upon submission of this form, the dealer calls the FBI NICS hotline with your information. If you have a clear record approval is granted. If you do not or have something that is not clear, the dealer is not allowed to process the transaction. Lying on the Form 4473 is a crime with a 5 year prison sentence. Also various state laws and forms may need to be submitted or followed as well.

"No Training" Incorrect. Organizations like the CMP and NRA provide extensive subsidized education in all sorts of firearms and safety across the USA. In addition depending on state and local laws, additional training may be required to obtain concealed permits. In addition there is also an extensive firearms training market in the USA.

"No consideration of mental disorders" Incorrect. One night of involuntary commitment bans you for life from firearms ownership in the USA and as long as organizations submit those records to NICS, you'll be in the database. Protective abuse orders and other similar issues and medications also ban you as well.

"No storage requirement". Depends on the state and locality. Personally I do not need big government telling me how to store my firearms at home.

"No Medicare". Incorrect. Old folks end up on Medicare at 65 and poor folks by the tens of millions have access to Medicaid.

"Almost no assistance to the unemployed" I have to laugh and roll on the ground for that one. We have tens of millions on EBT food and cash assistance, WIC, rent assistance, energy bill assistance, unemployment insurance. Poor Americans are dying of obesity not starvation. Over 100 million Americans get some form of Federal assistance. The welfare state is bloated and wasteful.

"Almost no old age pension". Wut? Every American that works for someone or is self employed must pay Social Security tax. You become eligible in your 60s and once you choose to take it, you get a check for the rest of your life every month.

"A very few own almost everything" Not from what I have seen, no.

"High drug use". Too much for sure. But life is about choices and some chose to make poor ones.

"Few people own their home". Actually the USA has some of the highest rates of home ownership around.

"Hollywood makes it normal to kill people" If there is one thing some Australians don't understand is that Hollywood is not America.

I think OB might actually been talking about AUS. :sarcasm:
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by bigrich » 23 Feb 2018, 3:40 pm

Oldbloke wrote:"They guy might be a cock but he makes a good point."

No criminal checks, no training, no consideration of mental disorders, no storage requirement.
No medicare, almost no assistance for the unemployed, almost no old age pension, a very few own almost everything. High drug use, few people own there own home. Oh and Hollywood makes it look normal to kill people.

Add it all up and there would be a hell of a lot of pissed of nutters.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong.

spot on i reckon OB :thumbsup:
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by on_one_wheel » 24 Feb 2018, 6:38 pm

What I found interesting lately was the lack of reporting in Australian news about Wednesday's American high school stabbing rampage.

Didn't even rate a mention :unknown:
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Archie » 24 Feb 2018, 8:06 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:What I found interesting lately was the lack of reporting in Australian news about Wednesday's American high school stabbing rampage.

Didn't even rate a mention :unknown:


Got a link?
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Oldbloke » 24 Feb 2018, 8:12 pm

Well I must be way off the mark then. Everyone in the US is as happy a pig in s**t. And law abiding citizens. Educated, healthy, wealthy and sane. Ooops and live very long lives.

Soooo, why are they shooting each other so bloody often? What is the root cause?
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by duncan61 » 24 Feb 2018, 9:03 pm

Do the percentages and stats.There is a lot of content middle America.I have met many people from Belfast who never saw a thing it was all isolated to a few streets
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Baronvonrort » 24 Feb 2018, 10:48 pm

Archie wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:What I found interesting lately was the lack of reporting in Australian news about Wednesday's American high school stabbing rampage.

Didn't even rate a mention :unknown:


Got a link?


This is an older one, 21 stabbed in an American high school, the gun grabbers downplay it saying at least they weren't shot
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/22/us/pennsylvania-teen-high-school-stabbing-prison-sentence/index.html
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Archie » 25 Feb 2018, 5:15 am

Baronvonrort wrote:
Archie wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:What I found interesting lately was the lack of reporting in Australian news about Wednesday's American high school stabbing rampage.

Didn't even rate a mention :unknown:


Got a link?


This is an older one, 21 stabbed in an American high school, the gun grabbers downplay it saying at least they weren't shot
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/22/us/pennsylvania-teen-high-school-stabbing-prison-sentence/index.html


Well, the bigger point from the media’s point of view is that in that attack, unlike the Florida shooting, no one died. But I’m still curious as to the one that occurred on Wendnesday?
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by marksman » 25 Feb 2018, 8:27 am

I have to say that what wanneroo said about the US is what I have heard from my daughter and son in law who live in the US
and I have asked a heap of questions about especially what is reported from our media sources
we don't get the same perspective from the media here in Australia,
some of the things that I have asked about because that is what has been in our news has made them roll around laughing
our media is that full of s**t
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Feb 2018, 9:34 am

I agree marksman we had a girl from America stay with us awhile back over xmas she was on leave from university with
my daughter and she said pretty much the same although both her parents had to work to be comfortable
As for the media I again agree with you as they are just a tool for the gov and print what makes sensational news
whether its accurate or not and politicians know and use this and some times their inaccurate news can harm
the outcome of important happenings such as gun laws
There is not enough accountability for politicians ,banks .media .crims lawyers and the list goes on and until this
happens we are stuck with what we have unless people get together and start voting for change and bring accountability
back
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Baronvonrort » 25 Feb 2018, 10:52 am

Archie wrote:
Baronvonrort wrote:
Archie wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:What I found interesting lately was the lack of reporting in Australian news about Wednesday's American high school stabbing rampage.

Didn't even rate a mention :unknown:


Got a link?


This is an older one, 21 stabbed in an American high school, the gun grabbers downplay it saying at least they weren't shot
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/22/us/pennsylvania-teen-high-school-stabbing-prison-sentence/index.html


Well, the bigger point from the media’s point of view is that in that attack, unlike the Florida shooting, no one died. But I’m still curious as to the one that occurred on Wendnesday?


I am curious about that one as well if anyone can find a link please post it.

This mass stabbing in a Texas college was 5 years ago he wounded 14 people- https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/09/lone-star-college-stabbing/2067449/

Perhaps I should ask if we should blame the knife, the availability of knives or the individuals for those attacks.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by wanneroo » 25 Feb 2018, 1:44 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Well I must be way off the mark then. Everyone in the US is as happy a pig in s**t. And law abiding citizens. Educated, healthy, wealthy and sane. Ooops and live very long lives.

Soooo, why are they shooting each other so bloody often? What is the root cause?


That is one big wide brush you wave around in generalizations. I can help educate you but like we say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

The vast majority of the US is as safe as any place in the world. The only real places to worry are those with the strictest gun laws like Chicago or DC.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by wanneroo » 25 Feb 2018, 1:50 pm

marksman wrote:I have to say that what wanneroo said about the US is what I have heard from my daughter and son in law who live in the US
and I have asked a heap of questions about especially what is reported from our media sources
we don't get the same perspective from the media here in Australia,
some of the things that I have asked about because that is what has been in our news has made them roll around laughing
our media is that full of s**t


Well one, it is always interesting to see and watch Australian media, especially left wing organizations like ABC, describe or discuss the United States and reason being most of the time it is totally detached from reality and facts to the point it's hysterical. Second it's always been fun to meet and talk to Australians and Kiwis who only know of the USA from Hollywood. Years ago when a company I worked for used to hire 150 Australians and Kiwis every ski season, some used to arrive expecting gun and knife fights breaking out all around them and then after a few weeks in the USA realized America isn't a Hollywood film set and that what is depicted on film has little to do with the real world.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Feb 2018, 2:36 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Soooo, why are they shooting each other so bloody often? What is the root cause?
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Feb 2018, 3:02 pm

Well wanneroo that last statement rings fairly true to me ''The only real places to Worry about are the places with
the strictest gun laws '' it looks like the laws don't work there
My thinking is that people should be allowed to carry and have hand guns providing they go through the right channels
to aquire them such as finger prints ,ballistics on the firearm , training , background checks, medical check for mental
stability and probably a few more that I can't think of at the moment
In the end you are completely in charge of that gun and say for instance you have an argument and shoot and kill some
one then you do life imprisonment not manslaughter or a trade off its ''LIFE'' for murder
Now if you shoot and kill someone in self defence due course should be taken to prove that this is exactly what happened
and not be treated as a criminal until such times as it is or is not proven
This reason that the police give of they don't want everyone armed and taking things into their own hands is flawed
the crims do that now only the legal owners don't so doesn't that say something
And all the anti gun people wouldn't buy guns '' so they say '' then there is the ownership of the gun with the name of the owner
attached to the ballistics of that gun easy to find out who done what ''or a lot easier anyway'
The benefits would be that criminals would think twice before entering a dwelling with intent to commit a crime while knowing that the
occupant was armed
At the moment these mongrels are picking on the easy targets like old people and the less capable
Hand to hand training has merit but how do you get an eighty year old to kick the crap out of an eighteen year old offender for
defence
My question to the anti gun people is '' If the guns are so dangerous and have a mind of their own so as to shoot people then ban them
from law abiding peoples hands then why do police and security guards have them strapped to their sides and then why ban a gun on its
looks because it will frighten people when police and security guards have them in full view of these so easily frightened people''
It makes no sense and what don't make sense usually doesn't work proven fact
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Daddybang » 25 Feb 2018, 3:04 pm

wanneroo wrote:
marksman wrote:I have to say that what wanneroo said about the US is what I have heard from my daughter and son in law who live in the US
and I have asked a heap of questions about especially what is reported from our media sources
we don't get the same perspective from the media here in Australia,
some of the things that I have asked about because that is what has been in our news has made them roll around laughing
our media is that full of s**t


Well one, it is always interesting to see and watch Australian media, especially left wing organizations like ABC, describe or discuss the United States and reason being most of the time it is totally detached from reality and facts to the point it's hysterical.



Don't worry wannaroo it's the same when they're discussing our own country as marksman said our media is full of sh@t!! :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by sungazer » 25 Feb 2018, 3:32 pm

The US has much harsher sentencing laws than we do. In some states the three strikes rule applies and they can be very minor crimes. A lot of banned for life from owning a gun again for some very minor stuff. In Australia you might be ineligible to hold a license for two years perhaps 5. Very hard to compare, I do think in the US they make more generalizations when it come to sentencing that are on the harsher side rather than having the mitigating circumstances that is so often used here. I do think that each case needs to be dealt with and decided individually though not a one size fits all.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by on_one_wheel » 25 Feb 2018, 7:38 pm

Archie wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:What I found interesting lately was the lack of reporting in Australian news about Wednesday's American high school stabbing rampage.

Didn't even rate a mention :unknown:


Got a link?


https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... tml?espv=1 ... shows link to an Aussie news page :lol: ... perhaps I should have said it barely rated a mention :thumbsup:

I also remember a certain Samurai attack that killed 29 people and injured 130 people at a train station ... that also didn't get the coverage you'd expect in Australia (choosing my words more carefully now ;) )
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/01/worl ... index.html
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Feb 2018, 8:57 pm

There are a large number of these "mass murders " And many other crime related murders, not just with firearms.

Yet the US is so safe! As safe as anywere in the world.

And yet they all need to carry hand guns for self defence? And now suggested teachers should carry. Some schools already have full time security, a rarity here.

Who is pulling who's leg?

Something is not right. What sort of society is this?

In my view, it's primarily social or cultural. And gun laws too at least to some degree. There has to be a reason (s) why people want murder lots of their fellow citizens so often. A lot of nuts or angry people on the US. More than most countries.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by trekin » 26 Feb 2018, 7:53 am

Probably a more interesting article,
https://constitution.com/school-shootin ... lieve-set/
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by wanneroo » 26 Feb 2018, 12:56 pm

grandadbushy wrote:Well wanneroo that last statement rings fairly true to me ''The only real places to Worry about are the places with
the strictest gun laws '' it looks like the laws don't work there
My thinking is that people should be allowed to carry and have hand guns providing they go through the right channels
to aquire them such as finger prints ,ballistics on the firearm , training , background checks, medical check for mental
stability and probably a few more that I can't think of at the moment
In the end you are completely in charge of that gun and say for instance you have an argument and shoot and kill some
one then you do life imprisonment not manslaughter or a trade off its ''LIFE'' for murder
Now if you shoot and kill someone in self defence due course should be taken to prove that this is exactly what happened
and not be treated as a criminal until such times as it is or is not proven
This reason that the police give of they don't want everyone armed and taking things into their own hands is flawed
the crims do that now only the legal owners don't so doesn't that say something
And all the anti gun people wouldn't buy guns '' so they say '' then there is the ownership of the gun with the name of the owner
attached to the ballistics of that gun easy to find out who done what ''or a lot easier anyway'
The benefits would be that criminals would think twice before entering a dwelling with intent to commit a crime while knowing that the
occupant was armed
At the moment these mongrels are picking on the easy targets like old people and the less capable
Hand to hand training has merit but how do you get an eighty year old to kick the crap out of an eighteen year old offender for
defence
My question to the anti gun people is '' If the guns are so dangerous and have a mind of their own so as to shoot people then ban them
from law abiding peoples hands then why do police and security guards have them strapped to their sides and then why ban a gun on its
looks because it will frighten people when police and security guards have them in full view of these so easily frightened people''
It makes no sense and what don't make sense usually doesn't work proven fact


We have sparse property crime and violent crime where I live because we all have guns and so it's almost a blessing for the crims if they get caught early otherwise they come down with fatal lead poisoning.

Understand in the USA that if you shoot someone in "self defense", first you have to take into account the local/state laws and how they apply to the situation. So the police are going to look at that and then the local district attorney and if that isn't definitive, then a grand jury will be empaneled to examine the evidence and to recommend charges or not.

We don't really need big government up our butt with all sorts of ballistics testing, fingerprints, etc. Not necessary. Stats show those licensed to carry firearms are non existent in the crime stats. In my state of 13 million, over 10% of the adult population is licensed to carry firearms and of those of us that keep up with the stats, we can only find one case of such an adult being charged with a homicide in recent years. Yes, 1 case. Your people that legally carry firearms are not your problem and never have been. If there is any problem in the USA it's states and localities with strict gun laws where gang bangers already banned from firearms ownership rule the streets and the public cannot carry to protect themselves.
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Re: Interesting article regarding recent US school shooting

Post by wanneroo » 26 Feb 2018, 1:01 pm

sungazer wrote:The US has much harsher sentencing laws than we do. In some states the three strikes rule applies and they can be very minor crimes. A lot of banned for life from owning a gun again for some very minor stuff. In Australia you might be ineligible to hold a license for two years perhaps 5. Very hard to compare, I do think in the US they make more generalizations when it come to sentencing that are on the harsher side rather than having the mitigating circumstances that is so often used here. I do think that each case needs to be dealt with and decided individually though not a one size fits all.


A conviction for a felony is a ban for life.

A conviction for a misdemeanor with a jail sentence of 2 years or more is a ban for life, even if not given that penalty.

One night of involuntary commitment is a ban for life.

Sometimes decades later through tens of thousands of dollars and paperwork and court, pardons can be granted and such.
wanneroo
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1412
United States of America

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