Attacking the NRA is really attacking everyday Americans

[marksman]

artical in the Washington post, there opinion
www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/attacki ... 3666f2763c

[Gaznazdiak]

Don't get me wrong, I love my guns and the fact that I am allowed to own and use them, but the self defence argument in America seems to my simple mind to be somewhat circular and self-defeating.

"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

True enough, but also raises the question, to me at least, if there weren't quite so many guns, so easily and anonymously available to anyone fresh out of the asylum, would there be such a desperate need for every "good guy" to be constantly armed and alert for a crazed attacker?

As the video below clearly demonstrates, making ever tighter and more restrictive gun laws will never work in America as the lack of licencing and registration makes a nonsense of draconian laws persecuting law abiding people. That horse hasn't just bolted, it's retired to a nice paddock and died of old age.

The CNN report below shows just how easy it is to get unregistered pistols and assault style rifles through the so called gun show loophole with absolutely no checks or waiting, the buyers and sellers didn't even exchange first names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51Gr0zpX_c

[1886]

As you say the horse has well an truly bolted and then there's trying to deal with fruit bats like this mob.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... -bear-arms

[bladeracer]

As the video below clearly demonstrates, making ever tighter and more restrictive gun laws will never work in America as the lack of licencing and registration makes a nonsense of draconian laws persecuting law abiding people. That horse hasn't just bolted, it's retired to a nice paddock and died of old age.

The CNN report below shows just how easy it is to get unregistered pistols and assault style rifles through the so called gun show loophole with absolutely no checks or waiting, the buyers and sellers didn't even exchange first names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51Gr0zpX_c

It doesn't matter where on the planet you are, guns exist. If people want them they will get them - regardless of what laws you put in place against those that choose to obey them. I doubt any of the illegal guns in the hands of our gangs came via any gunshow loophole.

[Baronvonrort]

Don't get me wrong, I love my guns and the fact that I am allowed to own and use them, but the self defence argument in America seems to my simple mind to be somewhat circular and self-defeating.

"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

The CNN report below shows just how easy it is to get unregistered pistols and assault style rifles through the so called gun show loophole with absolutely no checks or waiting, the buyers and sellers didn't even exchange first names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51Gr0zpX_c

This whole gun show loophole is bulls**t, no background checks are required for private sales. Why would you rent a stall at a gun show when you can sell it privately.

I have lived and worked in the USA I never had any fear living there I would say the cities I lived in were safer than anywhere in Australia.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Bristol-Rhode-Island.html
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Punta-Gorda-Florida.html

When it comes to self defence it's a different attitude compared to here.

[Gaznazdiak]

Hi bladeracer
We don't have a gun show loophole, perhaps part of the reason we don't need so many "good guys with a gun".
Here's one report on how all the illicit handguns are getting in.

https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi361

[Gaznazdiak]

Watch the CNN report baronvonrort.
I didn't pull it out of my bum.
All the guns bought were from private sellers AT GUNSHOWS.

[doc]

Australia is all the proof that the NRA members need to not give an inch - regardless of how 'good' or 'reasonable' the request to change the law may seem.

We have proven to American's that once the government starts, they don't stop - they continue down a slippery slope. First it was just registration - with a promise of no confiscation. Then there was confiscation and requiring a legitimate reason to keep what was left (with self defense not being an option).

Now we have crazy laws where a dad who has an unloaded .22 that didn't point the .22 at an armed druggie intruder in the middle of the night is treated like a criminal, and weeks are taken before he's given back his own firearms.

If Australia 'did it right' - then the 'grabbers' in America may have had some sort of example to use to help their argument be more convincing - but Australia did exactly what the NRA are suspicious of - which I believe has only added to the 'give no inch' attitude of NRA and their members.

And personally - I don't blame them, I'd encourage them not to give an inch. Governments simply can't be trusted to stop once they start. I'm disappointed in what happened with Australia - but at least some good has come out of it in that it's given American's the proof they can use to combat arguments from gun grabbers.

[bladeracer]

Hi bladeracer
We don't have a gun show loophole, perhaps part of the reason we don't need so many "good guys with a gun".
Here's one report on how all the illicit handguns are getting in.

https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi361

We don't have such a loophole because we don't have any use for it. Bad guys don't buy their guns from lawful owners, they order them from illegal importers.

"Around one in five detainees purchased their handgun through a 'private sale' (19%) or from a source on 'the street' (18%), and another eight percent obtained their handgun through a drug dealer or drug-related transaction. No detainee admitted acquiring their handgun directly through theft."

What possible laws could prevent these sales of illegal firearms between criminals...that ignore all laws?
Keep in mind, we've already increased requirements for people to get Cat-H licences, we had a handgun buyback and an amnesty, and we now have restrictions on handgun barrel length and mag capacity - and yet handgun violence is still climbing...

[Gamerancher]

It was on CNN, that immediately puts it in the scrap bin ol' mate. Ever heard of "editing" or "scripting". Watch 60 Minutes sometime. FFS.

[Gaznazdiak]

Bladeracer
I'm not suggesting that we need tighter laws, I think what we have now are too Draconian and I fear they are likely to use what's become boringly predictable in the US as a reason to persecute us even more, and I really wish people would not take a simple observation out of the context in which it was offered and decide it is a statement of blanket support for the knee-jerkers in parliament.

I was initially of the mistaken belief the the loophole applied to licenced dealers. I was wrong. The loophole is that private, anonymous, UNLICENCED citizens are allowed to set up at a gun show, amongst the licenced dealers, with a ready-made customer base and sell without record, without checks and even without exchanging first names and there is no record of the transfer. Some Peckerhead gets turned down by a dealer and can go to Joe Public at the stall next door and get what he' s after. That's all I'm trying to say.

Surely even the most rabid gun lover who also has a modicum of common sense can see that this is a recipe for trouble.

[marksman]

this discussion has bought out a few different scenarios that show laws/rules are ineffective if people ignore them

who's job is it to enforce them?

www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/opinion/aust ... erica.html

[bladeracer]

Bladeracer
I'm not suggesting that we need tighter laws, I think what we have now are too Draconian and I fear they are likely to use what's become boringly predictable in the US as a reason to persecute us even more, and I really wish people would not take a simple observation out of the context in which it was offered and decide it is a statement of blanket support for the knee-jerkers in parliament.

I agree with what we have in place already to licence owners. I consider all the rest of it to be garbage that just keeps a bunch of people employed and burns up tax money and Police resources. If somebody is not safe with a firearm then it makes no difference to their neighbours what sort of firearm that is or how much ammo it holds. It also matters not in what way and where abouts a person should be able to use a firearm once it's been decided they are not a risk to the community.

The US is a mess. Police see somebody walking down the street with an AR15, as is their right in some states. Unless the LEO has knowledge of a specific crime that has been, or is likely to be committed, (brandishing a firearm is a crime) they can't even legally require the person to identify themselves, or prove they have a firearm licence or carry permit. On the other hand, if said armed person takes charge of a motor vehicle, then they are required to identify themselves to Police on request as part of a traffic stop.

Your example is clearly not something most people would consider acceptable, but it is such a minuscule part of the big picture as to be a waste of resources to police it. The problem they have is in inter-department communication. People know who the crazy people are, but the system is so tied up in policing law-abiding people there's nothing left to address criminal activity. Modern policing (here in Australia as well) is geared toward taking the easy dollars from mr and mrs average citizen, every day, for whatever new laws are constantly being made to ensure plenty of ready income. It costs far too much money to go after criminals, and if they do catch some, it just reduces our need for even more police officers.

We know that illegal drugs and guns - and people - come into our ports with little risk of detection. We pay millions of dollars to our armed forces to train them in dealing with threats of all kinds, and when we do send them overseas, so many of their duties involve...policing illegal trafficking of arms, drugs and people. Why the hell can't we rotate our troops through our ports as part of a continual training scenario? We're already paying for them to train somewhere else anyway. Put a battalion on secondment to Border Force and keep our dock lands flooded with security personal, while at the same time providing vital real-world training to our forces.

[andreweden]

FFS, NRA being attacked? Some companies decided not to offer discounts to their members anymore, hardly an attack. Charging them more might be an attack, but really htfu!!!

It’s ok for all these people to boycott the nfl over that fella taking a knee during the anthem, but not offering a discount is an attack??

For the side of politics that coined the term snowflakes, they seem to be behaving like them over this. Next they will say they are being persecuted because Starbucks doesn’t put guns on the coffee cups....

[Gaznazdiak]

Gamerancher
So if I understand what you're saying, private citizens can't sell guns without checks or ID at gun shows and that CNN just edited the clip to give that false impression and I'm just a gullible nong.
Maybe I am in some situations, I'm a long way from perfect.
Unless you think this website also edits and scripts it's content, perhaps you'll believe them. FFS.
http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-tr ... state.html

[Gaznazdiak]

Bentaz
Perhaps what I'm typing here in English is coming up as Aramaic on whatever screen you're looking at. All I am saying, FFS, is that adding more untracable, unlicenced guns to an already overloaded market is adding to their problem.
You may lack the requisite intellectual horsepower to grasp this basic concept, your facetious response to a serious suggestion would indicate that, but all I am trying to say is that there does need to be some control on firearms sales. Do you advocate open slather to all and sundry?
I'm sorry but I lack the ability to make it any simpler for you.

[wanneroo]

Watch the CNN report baronvonrort.
I didn't pull it out of my bum.
All the guns bought were from private sellers AT GUNSHOWS.

CNN has a long track record of phony plants and other disreputable behavior, even at presidential debates.

Again Australians need to understand there is Federal law, there is State law and there is City and/or County law in the USA. There is a wide variance on what and how you can sell privately depending on the state and that only applies to citizens within that state. Anything that goes outside of state lines has to go through an FFL and a background check.

The left wants to force everyone into a universal background check system, with the next goal being registration and then confiscation.

Personally I don't think the background check system makes much difference at all for two reasons. One, as it stands the Federal government rarely prosecutes people attempting to buy a firearm when they can't, so what's the point of having the law if you don't enforce it. Two, all criminals do is use straw purchasers that have clean records to buy guns for them.

The left loves bureaucracy, but bureaucrats don't alter the behavior of criminals and terrorists with evil intent. Like we've seen in recent times with islamic terrorism, they'll use razor blades on planes, rented trucks, chemical weapons, knives, whatever to do their deeds.

[wanneroo]

And personally - I don't blame them, I'd encourage them not to give an inch. Governments simply can't be trusted to stop once they start. I'm disappointed in what happened with Australia - but at least some good has come out of it in that it's given American's the proof they can use to combat arguments from gun grabbers.

We are fighting because we know the end goal. It's not about safety, compromise or anything but power and control by big government.

Big government here in the USA told us we needed a background check system. So they passed the Brady Bill nearly 25 years ago. Now they say they need a bill called Fix NICS to fix the Brady Bill. More government to replace more government.

Problem is you take the Florida shooting for example. Big government failed. The FBI ignored two solid tips, one from someone that personally knew the shooter. The local police ignored nearly 40 service calls and tips, including terrorist threats he should have received felony charges for. Plus he was dropped out of a mental health program at 18. Plus school administrators ignored him. Then when the shooting happened, the deputy assigned to the school went and hid behind a wall and when 3 other deputies turned up, they hide too.

So big government failed big, yet people demand more big government. I think the more direct and simple solution is that we stop looking to big government to manage our daily lives, including protecting them and to do it ourselves.

[wrenchman]

our gun problims are social issues again this person had mental problims and made threats if you take the ar15 away he would just use another gun .
he made threats on you tube and was reported to the f.b.i the police was at his home 39 time he was kicked out for bringing weapons to school at every point he broke laws and nothing was done if you make a threat against any law maker in every case you are cuffed and hauled away i thing evey one should have the same protection and kids at schools more

[wanneroo]

Bentaz
Perhaps what I'm typing here in English is coming up as Aramaic on whatever screen you're looking at. All I am saying, FFS, is that adding more untracable, unlicenced guns to an already overloaded market is adding to their problem.

The funny thing is more rules and laws have an opposite effect.

Since day one in the USA you've been allowed to build your own firearm for personal use. The only requirement is that whatever you build has to be legal under Federal law and whatever state and locality you live in and that if you sell it, it has to be marked with a manufacturer(you) and a serial number. Once obama started his gun ranting, the AR-15 and AK-47 build industry exploded with people buying "parts kits" and making their own receivers, either milling a 80% receiver out or folding a receiver flat into shape with a jig. Anyone with a cheap welder, drill press and a few tools, even a Dremel, can make a gun.

Same with reloading. The reloading industry exploded over the past 10 years as people like myself seek to be self sufficient on ammo.

Just in new guns alone according to the number of background checks done, obama probably sold 100 million new guns during his two terms and the more the left keeps talking bans, the more we are going to buy. Just because of your posting now I think I'll order another couple dozen AR and AK mags, why not, 30 round PMAGS are on sale today for $8.99, Croatian AK mags $9.99!

[wrenchman]

please keep in mind many of our social issues would not be allowed any place world

[straightshooter]

Although it is slightly dated, the attached graphic puts the US situation into perspective.
So what is the real problem?
The swathes of psychologists employed everywhere in the modern propagandised world are quite aware that perhaps only 1 in a 100 (or perhaps a 1000) is capable of true critical thinking. The rest respond, to a lesser or greater extent, to whatever simulates their amygdala.
This phenomenon is constantly exploited by politicians and their adjuncts.
So look at the graphic again, it would seem logical that if the real concern was for loss of innocent life wouldn't banning knives or hands, fists and feet produce a more tangible result.
What do you think might be the real agenda?

I would like to find a similar comparison for Australia

US_Homicides.jpg (139.39 KiB) Viewed 6648 times

[Gwion]

[ The problem in america is they are all f***ed in the head. Canadians, kiwis and a host of other relevant nations don't just lose there s**t and shoot everyone.

Succinct.
I'm sure as whole the people of the US are genuinely good people but their system is so fundamentally flawed that it produces a large number of complete nut jobs with extremely violent ideations.

[Gwion]

Ok then...

[Gaznazdiak]

bentaz
I may have been a little rude in my response to you making out my comment was stupid, but I get a bit shirty when people twist what I say out all relation to what was actually said.

I did not make the evil suggestion that guns should be banned.
I did not suggest that new laws should be introduced, I actually said in the 4th para of my comment that it would be pointless.
Just in case you didn't bother to read that far into the comment before making up your mind that I actually meant the opposite of what I was saying, I have included para 4 below.

"As the video below clearly demonstrates, making ever tighter and more restrictive gun laws will never work in America as the lack of licencing and registration makes a nonsense of draconian laws persecuting law abiding people. That horse hasn't just bolted, it's retired to a nice paddock and died of old age"

All I meant was that with people able to sell unregistered, untraceable guns to unidentified strangers the problem will never be solvable.
Yes, that probably will need a law change to prevent that, but sometimes a change in the law can be a positive.

I know that for some gun fanciers, any suggestion of regulation is akin to a loud fart in the middle of a funeral service, but sometimes we have to accept that just because we want unfettered gratification of our gunlove, and that most of us could be trusted with that unfettered gratification, the world is also brimming with ratbags who should not have access to a sharp pencil, let alone untraceable hand guns.

Just out of interest, am I right in the impression I get from your comments that you think that having the ability to transfer untraceable hand guns willy-nilly is not actually exacerbating the situation? Because that is what it sounds like.

[bladeracer]

All I meant was that with people able to sell unregistered, untraceable guns to unidentified strangers the problem will never be solvable. Yes, that probably will need a law change to prevent that, but sometimes a change in the law can be a positive.

CNN admitted in the video that it was illegal to be sold those firearms without the seller demanding ID. That's yet another law that is clearly not being enforced, so why assume another law might be?
I think "no ID required" only applies if both parties reside in the same state, but without requiring ID how do you prove that...

[Gaznazdiak]

All I was trying to say yesterday, obviously not clearly enough, was that with all that untraceable firepower floating around with all that gunlove in the air the problem is no longer solvable.
I really don't understand how so many decided that my perplexity at the situation was some lefty call for blanket confiscation. It was not.

[bladeracer]

All I was trying to say yesterday, obviously not clearly enough, was that with all that untraceable firepower floating around with all that gunlove in the air the problem is no longer solvable.
I really don't understand how so many decided that my perplexity at the situation was some lefty call for blanket confiscation. It was not.

It doesn't matter where you are on the planet, there are unrecorded guns floating around everywhere, regardless of laws. Laws will never stop criminal access to guns. It never has anywhere it's been tried.

I get the same thing. I spend every day trying to educate anti-gun people, and their only view is that if we're pro-gun then we won't accept any regulation at all. Anywhere in between just doesn't fit into their belief system. The number of Aussies that still believe handguns are banned here is really annoying, even some shooters don't know we can have handguns.

[marksman]

wannaroo said in his last post that firearms have to be marked with manufacturer and serial number in the US
so really these guys in the vid Gaz, selling the guns without are crooks who deserve the full force of the law, they are not law abiding citizens
who is responsible for enforcing the law mate who has dropped the ball, but who gets the blame and has to pay

how many storeys of this nature do you read about and the FBI or local authority's new about the perp and did not act

[bladeracer]

wannaroo said in his last post that firearms have to be marked with manufacturer and serial number in the US
so really these guys in the vid Gaz, selling the guns without are crooks who deserve the full force of the law, they are not law abiding citizens
who is responsible for enforcing the law mate who has dropped the ball, but who gets the blame and has to pay

how many storeys of this nature do you read about and the FBI or local authority's new about the perp and did not act

The guns in the video were all mass-produced with serial numbers and manufacturer's details.

But charges should have been followed up on the sellers that did not demand ID as required by law. Since CNN knew this was illegal when they purchased them, unless they informed Police of illegal activity they should be charged also with abetting the crime.