Very Disappointed in my CZ 455. Is my 1st Rifle Faulty?

[in2anity]

Your link doesn't seem to be working bud - why not just embed the image in the thread?

My cheap webspace is down it seems... I both embedded and linked to the same image.

Ah bugger. You sure you embedded it properly? It looks like the the inline is also pointing to the metneia url?

[Tomek]

Your link doesn't seem to be working bud - why not just embed the image in the thread?

My cheap webspace is down it seems... I both embedded and linked to the same image.

Ah bugger. You sure you embedded it properly? It looks like the the inline is also pointing to the metneia url?

Certain, it worked fine yesterday when I posted it... I'll bump the thread when it works again.

It'd be good to know what about my large groups implies technique. I seem to get good groups fine when switching to some ammo, but the general trend is for a spread to develop after ~2 mags. The best being my 0.4inch with CCI subsonics. This is something I can't find any info on. It sees like warming up should increase accuracy but it's been like 6 times in a row now that I've always had the reverse.

[in2anity]

Certain, it worked fine yesterday when I posted it... I'll bump the thread when it works again.

To be clear, when I say embed, I don't mean pointing an inline img tag to an external url; rather use enoughgun's native "Upload Attachment" feature. The image will live on their own internal servers once you've done this (not relying on any external servers); this native functionality should be working OK shouldn't it?

Sorry to keep pestering you - I would like to see your targets is all

[Browning]

I consider my cz to be very accurate and great for hunting, but to be hitting 5c/10c piece holes "all day"?
Not gonna happen mate.
Yes, mine is "capable" of those groups and does it often but there's also a lot of other times/factors like me, the wind, a butterfly flapping it's wings in Japan, and it shoots s**t.
Like every sport. Some days it's on, some days it's not

[Tomek]

Here you go! Start from the middle and then work clockwise from the top left.. roughtly.

Link works now too:
http://metneia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/20161211-Target-1.jpg

[Tomek]

I consider my cz to be very accurate and great for hunting, but to be hitting 5c/10c piece holes "all day"?
Not gonna happen mate.
Yes, mine is "capable" of those groups and does it often but there's also a lot of other times/factors like me, the wind, a butterfly flapping it's wings in Japan, and it shoots s**t.
Like every sport. Some days it's on, some days it's not

This "dime size groups all day" is something I've heard from many CZ people who boast about their fingernail sized groups. I feel that mine is inconsistent and perhaps on the knife edge of acceptable. Maybe your's is on the edge of good / good enough. But many people get great results all day too.

I''d live to know why I get these fantastic groups in the first few 1-2 magazines with 3 ammo types, and then can't replicate the result for the next 5 hours? The barrel doesn't get hot, or even much above cold, but perhaps it only works well stone cold? lol fortuantely, the Gecco ammo seems to work pretty good. Eley Subsonic is alright as well with 20%+ fliers.

But if I got those great Gecco groups with my warm barrrel.. I should try shoot them first next time! I could go competitive with some cheap Gecco ammo and icepacks for the barrel

[Bills Shed]

Are you sure it is not you that is the main influencing factor in those groups? I do not know where you shoot or if you have access to a range on a daily basis. Go to the range and shoot your 2-3 "good" mags and then go home do not modify the rifle in any way and just run a slightly oiled patch through through the bore. Next time you go to the range wipe the bore and just shoot your 2-3 mags again. Is there a difference?
Shooting 100's of rounds in a sitting is not necessarily good medicine for the body. You get tired and do not even notice it. Accuracy can suffer. We all look for some reason; more often than not it is the operator and not the machine. When shooting off the bench, just like out in the field, consistency matters. I find the bench more so, and if you keep changing you technique to shoot better you will be just chasing your groups. Think about each shot and check that you are sitting in the same position, eye relief , hold etc, they all count. I seldomly shoot off a bench and I have trouble being consistent over multiple groups. My first groups are fine my rifle is zeroed and then I know everything works. I go up to the house and call it quits. Out in the paddock I may shoot a hundred rounds a night but they are in ones and twos and so no long concentration periods. No dramas. I am no paper shooter and do not want to be. More power to them. It is hard work to be consistent.
Bill

[Tomek]

Are you sure it is not you that is the main influencing factor in those groups?
Bill

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's not me and there's a few reasons.

1. I shouldn't get tired after 2 mags. I don't feel tired
2. I feel very stable in my aim and gentle trigger pulls. I have a 24x zoom with no paralax so I can see my target and movement well.
3. When switching with my gf, I could suddenly get great groups with her range rifle and good ammo, and she suddenly couldn't with mine.
4. The Gecco ammo worked great after my spread from <1" to well above 1". Spread went back out to above 1" after that. This is with the Eley Sport ammo that the shop said was great and that I got small groups with initially.
5. Other shooters at the range group just as well as me with my rifle and worse (3 experienced shooters so far).

[happyhunter]

Cheapest solution is stop believing the sh*t people post about shooting "dime sized groups" all day. The groups you are shooting are the best, the worst and everything in between that you and the rifle are capable of. Mount that rifle into one of those robotic vises in an indoor range where there is no breeze and I bet the robot could shoot the guts out of a 10c coin all day.

[Tomek]

Cheapest solution is stop believing the sh*t people post about shooting "dime sized groups" all day. The groups you are shooting are the best, the worst and everything in between that you and the rifle are capable of. Mount that rifle into one of those robotic vises in an indoor range where there is no breeze and I bet the robot could shoot the guts out of a 10c coin all day.

Any ranges in Victoria that have these vises? Or makeshift alternatives like a few pieces of brick, wood, rubber and rope?
Using a vise would have likely shortened this long thread..

[bladeracer]

Any ranges in Victoria that have these vises? Or makeshift alternatives like a few pieces of brick, wood, rubber and rope?
Using a vise would have likely shortened this long thread..

I have a vice set up in the workshop that allows me to shoot into the paddock. I ended up putting my father-in-law's Remington 510 in it...and still couldn't get it to group better than five-inches at 25m

[in2anity]

This thread represents the fundamental problem with basing your expectations off what other people have reported as their "best" groups online; it's never representative of the intrinsic capabilities of a rifle. You need a huge sample size to extrapolate this kind of "average" data (for a specific given set of variables I might add, of which there are many many more than simply what the rifle is physically capable of).

The other thing is that CZ has a bit of a reputation when it comes to accuracy - but I feel this is based on the older Brunos and 452s, not these newer 455s. Just goes to show how misleading heresay can be. CZ sporters are good, but they'll never compare to 54 Annie for five times the price.

Still, I think there would indeed be slightly more accurate 455s out there than yours - it's very annoying when you end up with a rifle that you wouldn't classify as a "shooter" - I have a Marlin 336 which is just like this too; man have I invested some time in trying to get that thing to group better

Perhaps you could stick to offhand target shooting? It seems to like that Geco ammo...

[Browning]

When people say their rifle shoots 10c pieces all day; I reckon it's just a saying.
Very few people could actually accomplish this feat and I know my 452 is much better than me...
I only really use mine in the field and I only use a 3-9 scope but it just works...
I know the times I've had it at the range it's shot clover leaves but more often than not there's a few fliers and duds... Gun - maybe
Me - more likely lol
Try it in the field mate on some bunnies and you might find you start liking it...

[bladeracer]

I've never had a one-shot .22LR group bigger than .223"...at any range!

For hunting all you really need to know is were does the first shot tend to land.

[Gwion]

Tomek. AS i said above, you are adding too many variables into too small a sample to get any definitive answers as to what you and your rifle are capable of.

The pics you posted first off showed what seemed to be double grouping. The pics you most recently posted showed no signs of double grouping. What they did show were some classic signs of varying grip, scope relief, etc, etc. These things you will be too inexperienced to notice; particularly when you are constantly changing everything during a session; and you don't have to "feel tired" for them to be creeping in quickly. Slight changes in forearm grip, trigger approach, head position, breathing/timing, etc. can all lead to variations in group size. Your scope may also be set up poorly: slightly off square, too far back, etc, etc.. Don't assume that because someone at a gunshop set it up that it is right for you. This could also count for others having issues with the rifle. Not saying it is so, just that it is a possibility.

Until you learn some patience and just take one type of ammo to the range, have your rifle set up in one way and concentrate on consistent technique while shooting at least one whole box of the SAME ammo, you will not get anywhere. In a recent post you said, "i want to get the most out of the outing". I was trying to hint that changing everything will not give you the "most".

My final suggestion to you is to bed the rifle (because the easier bolt cycle and a lack of double grouping tells me that there IS some form of bedding issue there and it is having an effect on the rifle AND you, ie: putting you off), pick what you think is the best ammo so far and shoot the b'jeezuz out of the rifle while concentrating on FORM. One session concentrate on trigger pull, etc., etc.. After a couple of thousand rounds over a month or so, you will find that you are a lot better than you are now.

[jovialjosie2002]

. When we swapped rifles, she was suddenly getting groupings over 2 inches and I went closer to the 1 inch mark.

I think that statement says a lot. I bought a cz 527 in 7.62*39 and it was woeful. Rounds wouldn't feed, magazine fell out, accuracy was appallingly bad. Sent it off to Winchester and it came back AMAZING!!!!!
Even the gun shop said "wow, like a new gun"
It needed rebedding amongst other things. Now the bolt is much smoother, magazine is tight and feeds well, accuracy is outstanding even with cheap Russian stuff.
These rifles are expensive and their QC is not up to scratch. Explain your situation to the gun Shop and hopefully they will send it back. If they don't, feel free to tell everyone who the gun Shop is and/or what Winchester did to fix the problem.
Winchester is not renowned for fast delivery of New firearms, HOWEVER, their after sales service has a good reputation. I am sure that they will pull it apart, and fix it. After all, they should be good at it cause they get heaps of customers with cz issues.

[Tomek]

. When we swapped rifles, she was suddenly getting groupings over 2 inches and I went closer to the 1 inch mark.

I think that statement says a lot. I bought a cz 527 in 7.62*39 and it was woeful. Rounds wouldn't feed, magazine fell out, accuracy was appallingly bad. Sent it off to Winchester and it came back AMAZING!!!!!
Even the gun shop said "wow, like a new gun"
It needed rebedding amongst other things. Now the bolt is much smoother, magazine is tight and feeds well, accuracy is outstanding even with cheap Russian stuff.
These rifles are expensive and their QC is not up to scratch. Explain your situation to the gun Shop and hopefully they will send it back. If they don't, feel free to tell everyone who the gun Shop is and/or what Winchester did to fix the problem.
Winchester is not renowned for fast delivery of New firearms, HOWEVER, their after sales service has a good reputation. I am sure that they will pull it apart, and fix it. After all, they should be good at it cause they get heaps of customers with cz issues.

The trouble is that the shop tested it themselves at a private range and it was great using Eley Sport ammo. I went back to the range with the exact same box they shot from and after an initial few good groups, the sizes doubled. I knew it wasn't me when the Geco ammo gave me great 10 shot groups. I will see how this Geco ammo works next time, and try get the CCI HPs working well too but the inconsistency really bothers me..

Btw, when I'm told that the gun needs to be re-bedded, does that mean glass bedding? I was thinking of doing it myself but the pillar screw mod is something I can't do. Any idea how much it'd cost to get a pillar and glass bedding job done in Melbourne?

[jovialjosie2002]

Btw, when I'm told that the gun needs to be re-bedded, does that mean glass bedding? I was thinking of doing it myself but the pillar screw mod is something I can't do. Any idea how much it'd cost to get a pillar and glass bedding job done in Melbourne?

I wouldn't dissemble the firearm, this looks like a warranty issue and Winchester are the ones to rebedd, NOT you. If you attempt to do this, they will says it was you that ruined the gun. It shouldn't be any trouble for the shop to send it back, or, investigate this further themselves.
What has the gun Shop done to help so far?

[Gwion]

Some pics re: fixing up some serious bedding issues.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6721

PM me and i can point you in the right direction to bed the rifle. Before you do it, make sure you have exhausted the return options. Even send the wholesaler an email describing the issues you have and they might just swap it out for you.

[Wm.Traynor]

.
These rifles are expensive.

Where the rimfires are concerned, they really are not when you compare them (I did) to the Annie, which was several times the price of my 455.

[jovialjosie2002]

"Where the rimfires are concerned, they really are not when you compare them (I did) to the Annie, which was several times the price of my 455."

You have mentioned a very good point. However, I still think these guns have issues.....

Hmmmm let me see.... I just bought a $355 Stirling from shooters delight, with scope, it shoots great and I have no problems with it....rugers are a little bit more expensive than them around $400-500.... I don't see many people complaining about them.
HOWEVER, I do see heaps of people complaining about cz's. Their QC has dropped and I think there are better value, more reliable, more accurate rifles to be had for much less money.
It doesn't take much effort or money to make a superior product. Treat your staff well, pay them what they deserve and invest in a good manufacturing culture. In my opinion cz firearms show all the signs of a product put together by people who just don't care. Either they are rushed to produce more, treated like dogs or just don't give a damn about their jobs. It shows up in the end product.....
They are like an Italian automobile....looks great, but is inherently unreliable and put together by people who just don't give a damn.

[jovialjosie2002]

"Where the rimfires are concerned, they really are not when you compare them (I did) to the Annie, which was several times the price of my 455."

You have mentioned a very good point. However, I still think these guns have issues.....

Hmmmm let me see.... I just bought a $355 Stirling from shooters delight, with scope, it shoots great and I have no problems with it....rugers are a little bit more expensive than them around $400-500.... I don't see many people complaining about them.
HOWEVER, I do see heaps of people complaining about cz's. Their QC has dropped and I think there are better value, more reliable, more accurate rifles to be had for much less money.
It doesn't take much effort or money to make a superior product. Treat your staff well, pay them what they deserve and invest in a good manufacturing culture. In my opinion cz firearms show all the signs of a product put together by people who just don't care. Either they are rushed to produce more, treated like dogs or just don't give a damn about their jobs. It shows up in the end product.....
They are like an Italian automobile....looks great, but is inherently unreliable and put together by people who just don't give a damn.

[bladeracer]

.
These rifles are expensive.

Where the rimfires are concerned, they really are not when you compare them (I did) to the Annie, which was several times the price of my 455.

I think they're expensive for what you're getting for your money.
Some people like to pay extra for the brand name or some nice looking wood, but lots of cheaper rifles are just as capable of doing the job in my opinion.
Too many people are hooked on the fallacy that price guarantees quality.

[Supaduke]

You sure it's not just the scope that's knackered?

You are convinced it's not you and shoots good for two or three mags then wanders.

If the bedding or rifle is stuffed it won't shoot well ever. Certainly not consistently 2 good mags then no good , then return next time and two good mags. It can't magically fix itself while sitting in the safe. Have you tried a different scope ? I couldn't be arsed reading back through the whole thread.

[Tomek]

You sure it's not just the scope that's knackered?

You are convinced it's not you and shoots good for two or three mags then wanders.

If the bedding or rifle is stuffed it won't shoot well ever. Certainly not consistently 2 good mags then no good , then return next time and two good mags. It can't magically fix itself while sitting in the safe. Have you tried a different scope ? I couldn't be arsed reading back through the whole thread.

Yes I got a new scope actually and it seems the same. It can't be me as when I switch rifles with my gf (range rifle) on the range, the good/bad groupings stay with the rifle, not the shooter. This Geco ammo looks promising as well so I will check that out too. Also, I've had 3 other experienced shooters try it while it's in spray mode and they were just as bad / worse than me. All walked away sheepishly saying its a fussy rifle, not used to trigger etc.etc. People hate blaming CZs... but scoff when I offer to sell it to them!

Anyway, I will focus on the Geco, Eley Subsonic HP and CCI subsonic HP next time. If it shoots ok I may just stick with it. The dilemma for hunting is.. do I shoot with a round nosed accurate round, or a less accurate hollowpoint? I'd be aiming for headshots..

[happyhunter]

Nice pages and counting

[Tomek]

Nice pages and counting

Yes I think I me ending this saga by being satisfied or replacing my rifle would be a favor to everyone at this point! I hope that I can soon come back with some nice clean rabbit kills to show or.. my very own Annie 1712 "finger nail sized groups all day" targets followed by even more rabbits. And a BBQ invite

[in2anity]

Yeah TBH honestly I never thought the shooters capability was the issue here (Tomek); most people are capable of shooting moa off a bench (provided the rifle is). I honestly believe this was just a case of unrealistic expectations combined with a pretty average rifle - I can totally relate, I've been in the exactly the same boots in the past (with my 336). If accuracy is of paramount importance, there's not really any avoiding spending a little more on your kit (i.e. purchasing an Annie)

[Tomek]

Yeah TBH honestly I never thought the shooters capability was the issue here (Tomek); most people are capable of shooting moa off a bench (provided the rifle is). I honestly believe this was just a case of unrealistic expectations combined with a pretty average rifle - I can totally relate, I've been in the exactly the same boots in the past (with my 336). If accuracy is of paramount importance, there's not really any avoiding spending a little more on your kit (i.e. purchasing an Annie)

The trouble with the expectations is that I go get those tight groups initially and then they spread out. Could actually be a good thing compared to the opposite. What would be the use of a hunting rifle that takes 5-10 shots before it shoots straight?

[in2anity]

Yeah TBH honestly I never thought the shooters capability was the issue here (Tomek); most people are capable of shooting moa off a bench (provided the rifle is). I honestly believe this was just a case of unrealistic expectations combined with a pretty average rifle - I can totally relate, I've been in the exactly the same boots in the past (with my 336). If accuracy is of paramount importance, there's not really any avoiding spending a little more on your kit (i.e. purchasing an Annie)

The trouble with the expectations is that I go get those tight groups initially and then they spread out. Could actually be a good thing compared to the opposite. What would be the use of a hunting rifle that takes 5-10 shots before it shoots straight?

Actually when it comes to fast centerfire, it's recommended to fire a couple of fouling shots before a hunting trip - this is also somewhat of the purpose of your sighters before a match. After a thorough cleaning, most cartridges/rifles throw a couple of flyers before they really settle down. This is due to the barrel needing to be being lined to help with obturation. And if I'm shooting lead silhouette loads through my lever, I basically don't clean my barrel (rather just bore snake then an oil patch); it hates being cleaned and groups the tightest without much cleaning at all.

Now speaking 22 rimfire; the 22lr arguably may also fall into the category of "don't clean it". The wax coating shields from leading and also helps with obturation/stabilization (once the barrel is lubed up). For a 22 If anything groups should tighten up after a clean. That's how I run my 22 anyway, and I know many others follow this regime for 22s.

So getting back to your rifle - yes it is quite unusual that your 22 starts accurate and then quickly degrades. Quite the pickle indeed... almost reminds me of the 17hmr (which I believe needs regular and rigorous cleaning to keep it tight).

All that said, heck if you have the budget for it, I say trade it in get yourself a 54 Annie (wipes drool away).