Very Disappointed in my CZ 455. Is my 1st Rifle Faulty?

[in2anity]

Also with your target Tomek - I noticed a lot of your shoddy groups are with Eley sport - that stuff isn't the most accurate ammo out there hey. It performs pretty averagely out of my Lithy too.

[Tomek]

Also with your target Tomek - I noticed a lot of your shoddy groups are with Eley sport - that stuff isn't the most accurate ammo out there hey. It performs pretty averagely out of my Lithy too.

The reason is that when the shop tested my rifle, they got incredible groups with Eley Sport. The targets they showed me are <0.5" and there were 3 groups. Apparently they shot more than that which is odd.. CCI did alright. Eley Match sucked. They gave it a good clean and used a different scope than I had at the time but I have changed my scope since then and things are the same. Meanwhile, the Gecco rounds worked pretty well for me so I can't just blame myself.

So.. how do you explain that? lol

It's a shame there's no-one around my to help me out at the Victorian shooting ranges. I sometimes doubt the shop tested MY rifle as no-one (my gf or 3 other experienced shooters) can get those groups with my rifle and that ammo when I'm around.

[Wylie27]

I get great groups with Eley sport out of my Lithgow Crossover.

But crappy groups from CCI..

Each rifle is different, barrel harmonics etc..

[Pythonkeeper]

I haven't tried any higher end ammo through my Lithgow, I haven't had the need to, it isn't that fussy with what I feed it and everything I've tried shoots very reasonable groups, however, it shoots exceptionally well using Winchester bushman/super speed and Federal American Eagle (hollow and solids) which can be had for $39-$45 per 500 so these are what I use.

Have you tried running some of the cheaper gear through your CZ @Tomek?

[Tomek]

I haven't tried any higher end ammo through my Lithgow, I haven't had the need to, it isn't that fussy with what I feed it and everything I've tried shoots very reasonable groups, however, it shoots exceptionally well using Winchester bushman/super speed and Federal American Eagle (hollow and solids) which can be had for $39-$45 per 500 so these are what I use.

Have you tried running some of the cheaper gear through your CZ @Tomek?

I've gotten 0.4- 0.7 inch groups in my first 2 mags with the cheapest Federal HP, CCI Subsonics and Eley Sport. All spread out after that. At that spray shooting point, I've tried many expensive and cheap ammos, About 17 in total.

The last day was a bit better (maybe because my standards have dropped) but I only managed good groups with the Gecco Rifle ammo which is also cheap. Eley Subsonic HPs and SK POistol Match did ok too. When the servicing guy at the range tested my rifle he was able to shoot a great group with a ~10 year old box of T22 WInchester. The latest T22 batches are rubbish however.

[Oldbloke]

I think the shop told u fibs. It is in their interest to show you small groups. My Brno likes bushman but sometimes throws a flyer.

[happyhunter]

I rekon you're wiggin' out' too much on tiny groups Tomek. I just bough a new rifle that yesterday sprayed bullets all over the place like a mad woman's custard, but I didn't loose any sleep over it. Today, after 2 hours work destroying any chance of a warranty return, it's now an accurate bunny slaying laser weapon capable of shooting the eye out of a rabbit at 50 meters.

[Oldbloke]

Sooo, what did u do happy?

[happyhunter]

Sooo, what did u do happy?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7263

[CZ452 Varmint]

How did you go with your rifle? Its now mid April and no updates.

I have only just found this forum and spent an hour and a half reading this thread and what do I see from the targets, verticle stringing in a lot of cases. To me that suggests breathing. Try exhaling and taking your shot at the botrom of your breath. I know the Springvale Range very well spending many nights down there over the last 22 years. I have also shot those mythical 5c groups but they are more the aberration rather than the norm. I personally have a CZ452 Varmint with a Boyds thumbhole stock that WILL punch one hole groups with Winnie Powerpoints but doing it is as I said earlier is not the norm. My Varmint has a Nikko Stirling 4-16x50 Nighteater scope amd preforms brilliantly. I also have a CZ452 Scout and a 1982 BRNO Model 2. Both of which will on occasion pull 5c groups. It's more me than the rifle. Each has its own preference for ammo but they all will shoot Winne Powerpoints with out much fuss. This is a target I shot a 9 days ago at Springvale. The top two left hand targets were trying to work out the difference between Winnie subs and Powerpoints so they shouldn't be counted but the other 4 were shot with Powerpoints and show that while one group is pretty good the others are ragged by comparison. This particular rifle had the barrel lapped before I even fired a shot and has only recently been put in the Boyd stock.

[d3driver]

Did this issue get sorted? You can't leave us hanging like this dude, we have an emotional investment now...!

[Tomek]

Hey guys, I'm still here. Thanks for the emotional investment

Must say I did get discouraged from the sport because of this. I considered just rage buying another other gun with a guarantee and real-life tight-group example. (My rifle had a spray example). Just to try make the problem go away lol. But have calmed down and let it lie (literally).

However, I really want to get back into it. I still have that offer from my friends and I even met their parents who own the farm and they welcome me too after I met them at a party.So its a waste if I give up. And it's a fun sport, great excuse to get out to nature with my gf and most ethical way to eat meat AND even get some fur for her crafting.

Anyway, I'm out of options so I'm going to offer someone $100 for their time if they come shoot with me for a day, with my CZ455 and their .22 rifle (which can shoot tight groups) at a range in VIC. Preferably Springvale as there is less wind. I'd love to see how I shoot with another rifle, and how someone else shoots with mine. And any adjustments to the bedding, different ammo etc. I really need to settle this problem so I can enjoy the sport and get out there and make use of it!

If anyone here is up for that then please let me know. It would be good to get some human help I'll post as a main thread if I get no takers.

[PoorShot300]

I'm sure if you approach the RO at Springvale, and ask him who the most giving of time is...you will find a few new friends.
It's been 5x months now, i'd thought you were on your way to bedding that sucker down.

I do hope you get it sorted and get out enjoying it... just do it. If you don't want to do the job yourself, i'm sure a replacement stock wouldn't cost much to see if there is a change...

Good Luck, and don't give up...imagine how sweet it will feel when you do get it sorted and are punching holes as anticipated...that will take a regimen of practice from you to do your part though.

[Wombat]

I'm always up for wasting time at Springvale, but I'm chasing better accuracy out of my Brno myself...If you want a shot of a fair rifle but not a tackdriver give me a yell.

[Tomek]

Thanks guys. Yeah I wish I had had it sorted already. I'd have definitely posted some groups or hunting pics by now if i had though haha.

Someone with an Anschutz just offered to help me out so I hope to go back one of these weekends to help sort this out.Even if I could just shoot 3 tight groups in a row I'd be super stoked. But to learn some tips, find the problems, and just give me a direction of what to do to reach my goal would be awesome.

[COLLECTOR 1]

Need you to try something right out of left field

I'm assuming your ready to wrap this around a tree......

Firstly bed the action in devcon or similar and torque the action screws and centre screw down all the same...nothing to heavy.

It sounds like a slight heating up and point of impact problem.
Check the bottom of the bolt to see if there are any rub marks from the lips of the mag, if there is (1) bet you it's a 10 shot mag, (2)try another mag, preferably a 5 shot steel.

I've have seen this "in battery" problem with Brno rifles before but not CZ, if the lips of the mag are touching the bottom of the bolt when it's closed and in battery it causes to bolt to "lift' ever so slightly....as the rifle, chamber, and barrel warm up sure enough the point of impact wanders...

I don't know why, but it only happens with 10 shot mags with the Bruo rifles....

My two bobs worth..lol....frustration at its best

Collector 1

[Oldbloke]

Re- above suggestion. Or just single load without the magazine.

[Gwion]

I'd be happy to help for free but it's a long swim to Springvale from here.

[Barrettmr]

After having read most of this thread, this is a thought.

Have you pushed any pieces of lead out of the barrel when you are cleaning?
I have a savage that will only stay accurate for around 40 rounds. When clean it will shoot 20mm groups with subs, after that it will open up to about 65mm groups. With hv it will shoot 30mm groups and the open up to a 100 to 125mm groups. I can push half moon clumps of lead out of the barrel when this happens.

By the same token I have a cz452 that has had 1500 round thought it and it will still give me the mythical 5 cent group if I do my stuff, althought I did have to do the trigger, float the barrel properly and do a poor man's bedding with some paper under the action.

I too am reading along with interest.

[Tomek]

After having read most of this thread, this is a thought.

Have you pushed any pieces of lead out of the barrel when you are cleaning?
I have a savage that will only stay accurate for around 40 rounds. When clean it will shoot 20mm groups with subs, after that it will open up to about 65mm groups. With hv it will shoot 30mm groups and the open up to a 100 to 125mm groups. I can push half moon clumps of lead out of the barrel when this happens.

By the same token I have a cz452 that has had 1500 round thought it and it will still give me the mythical 5 cent group if I do my stuff, althought I did have to do the trigger, float the barrel properly and do a poor man's bedding with some paper under the action.

I too am reading along with interest.

To pique your interest..

After many trips to the range, I paid the guy there to clean it. He did get some little clumps out. Then he tested it himself and found it to be very "fussy". He tried many types of ammo. At least 8 types. At one point he tried a verrry old box of T22 ammo (over 10 years old apparently) which actually shot good groups with the two mags he used. Not sure what would happen after that but that's what makes this rifle so frustrating. How can it just totally suck with all sorts of ammo, even Match ammo, and then work well with a cheap old box? I tried it with a new box of T22 the next week day and it sucked really badly..

Then I had the shop test it and Elley Sport was a dream. Yet me, my gf, another shooter and a range officer couldn't replicate it at all. I got a new scope even and nothing. When someone said that I probably want to wrap it around a tree they are absolutely right lol.

In your case though, if I needed to get clumps of metal out after 40 rounds to maintain reasonable accuracy, I'd call that a faulty rifle.

[Wombat]

What was the new scope? I have an old Japanese Nikko 4X that I bought to eliminate the scope as an issue on mine, before I invested in some decent glass. It got my rifle down to 10 cent groups.
If you want to borrow a known good scope you are welcome to try it.

[Tomek]

So I'm back from my day shooting with a helpful Enough Gun member. He taught me quite a few things. Thank you!

I've attached my targets and labelled them as best as my memory would allow. As you can see, I start off with some great groups - as usual - which then scatter and rise. I had trouble reaching tight groupings after that and it kept drifting higher without cleaning. My buddy cleaned my barrel with a dry cloth a few times (~4 I don't remember each time on my target and may have mixed a few up) and it would usually yield some small improvement but soon need cleaning again as my shots scattered and rose. He noted that my gun was accumulating gunk unusually quickly, possibly due to a new rifling being sharper. Still, probably not as it should be and I've shot around 1,000 rounds so far.. His Anschutz was fine without so much cleaning but had a similar amount when he cleaned it once in the middle of the day.

After ~2 hours of shooting he gave me a go on his Anschutz using the same SK Rifle Match ammo we'd been using. My first 5 shots weren't great as I was not really holding the rifle tight.. just admiring the stability from his bipod and good sandbag and pulling the trigger. I felt like a surgeon but the group wasn't the best. I then let off 10 shots holding to tight and really focusing this time... OMG I was floored inside but didn't wanna jump up and down haha. 10 shots.. 16mm grouping (12mm without the outlier!). He had similar (poor) results as me using my rifle.

His conclusion was that my rifle builds up gunk pretty quick, otherwise it was probably 'within spec'. He said I'm a pretty good shot (especially considering my setup on the day) though there's still a few tips and tricks I could learn. I had no bipod or large sanbag, just the flat range rest. My rear sandbag isn't very grippy or solid either and was too low. Having said that, I've had much more stability in the past when the range had the V rests.

He can hunt pretty well and his groupings with hollow points weren't as good as with the SK Rifle Match ammo so knowing that and that he doesn't always hit rabbits in ideal condition did make me feel better. He said if my rifle can put out the first few shots ok, it should be good enough for hunting. Even the latter groupings can yield some kills. This is true. However, it makes it hard to zero properly if it is so sensitive to how clean (and maybe cold) it is. It's as if I only get 2-3 mags to zero my scope for hunting each time I goto the range.

My plan now is to read up on a few links he gave me and go back to try and zero it for some hunting ammo. I zeroed it for the CCI subsonics at the end so I'm curious how accurate it is fresh with those. I have attached the bipod now (which I should have brought in the first place). If things go ok (not great, just ok at least) I will try go hunting sometime and see how I go. If I like it, I will consider getting another rifle then. I'll also try get a new cleaning rod and cloth. When I cleaned using his tools, it was much more snug than my set.

I think that my issues come partly from being new and not having a 100% stable setup and high expectations. But I still think my rifle is a bit dodgy. It shouldn't scatter so much after 2-3 mags and then require such frequent cleaning. Maybe it's within spec but it would be borderline at best. I might send it back to WInchester when I go to for my US trip in 3 months.

[Oldbloke]

So, if it is building up lead far faster than normal the bore must be very rough. Perhaps consider giving the bore a Lapping/polish. Not hard.

[Tomek]

Also replying to a few other posts..

@COLLECTOR 1 : My mag is a 5 shot steel.. but the theory of it heating up, and expanding to affect my shooting could make some sense. I could try get another mag and see how I go switching them. Although it could just as well be some part of the action. Either way, when hunting, I would be done by the first 1-2 mags anyway.

@Wombat : It's a good offer and I wouldn't mind trying another scope. However, it's hard for me to zero after my first 2-3 mags

@Barrettmr : As my long report mentions, I do seem to have a problem with gunk building up quickly and stuffing up my aim. Trouble is, that cleaning doesn't bring it back to my ~half inch starting groups. So it may be both this and some kind of heat expansion. Again, a moot point when hunting.

I do hope that with my bipod and new tips I can shrink my long-term groups a little but it still sucks.. especially when I just had another guy tell me about his 5 cents groups lol. Anyway, I just need the first 1-2 mags to be right at most for what I want to do with it.

[Tomek]

Do if it is building up lead far faster than normal the bore must be very rough. Perhaps consider giving the bore a Lapping/polish. Not hard.

Can I do this at home? Is it just using the brush several times?
If not, the Springvale range has a gunsmith of sorts.

[Oldbloke]

Yep. Just need very fine polishing paste, cleaning rod, and mop.

Perhaps someone here has some experience. I did my Brno yonks ago with brasso. Check out YouTube too. You do need to be careful. Less is more in this case.. Once you remove the metal you can't replace it.

[Gwion]

To be honest, those groups don't look unusual for someone who hasn't shot very much. Still think it could be the action bedding playing up as well but like OldBloke says, the bore sounds like it's probably got some chatter in it. Still, i'd bed it before trying to lap the barrel. You can buy replacement barrels and as it's a 455 you can just drop it in yourself.

[Gwion]

The 455 doesn't need gun smithing to fit a new barrel as it is a switch barrel rifle and match grade barrels are available from a number of barrel makers, Lilja being one off the top of my head. If you're paying $700 for a match 22lr barrel + $300 for gun smithing you are paying WAY too much.

Still, I suspect the barrel is not the only issue and that there is likely stress in the action from poor bedding surface.

[Gwion]

http://riflebarrels.com/shop/drop-in-ba ... on-barrel/

Lilja CZ455 drop in barrel US$410.

[Tomek]

I wouldn't be lapping barrels, it is for the professionals and only after you have had a professional with a professional bore scope do a careful inspection. Beware there are a lot of self proclaimed professionals out there that are just hacks and may not even have the proper equipment and knowledge. You do have to put it all in perspective as well how much are you prepared to spend on a gun that was worth X and will only ever be worth X. I understand if you have a sentimental attachment to it being your first gun or you are just stubborn like me and want to fix it no matter what the cost. In that case spend $700 on a match grade barrel $300 on the gunsmith and you wont have to do any lapping. In fact if you do you will void the warranty.

Oh don't worry, there's no sentimental feelings attachment to this gun. O do like it but I'd happily smash it over a rock I'd it didn't have any resale value too lol. The issue is probably me willing to spend a lot more getting a new rifle than fixing it via a new barrel and bedding. But that's also partly because if it's an issue with the action then it's wasted money.

I think my current plan of going to the range again with a better setup and hopefully finding a place to try hunt are the best and cheapest option. Then maybe sending it for a checkup with Winchester / CZ while i go on holiday. I shouldn't have to fix a product that's under warranty.