Loading .223 military projectiles

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Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 01 Jul 2017, 2:05 pm

I have been handloading for my 24" 1:9 Howa 1500 for less than 6 months, so any advice would be very welcome.
I have had my chamber etc measured to calculate best COAL and have been told that as long as I seat any projectile with the shoulder in the same place as the reference blanks we made when measuring I should be fine and I have been seating my projectiles accordingly.
I recently acquired some ADI 62gr FMJBT surplus military projectiles, when I load these using this method the entire cannelure is exposed. I realise that the bullet is seated as firmly as any other without the cannelure, but would the placement of the cannelure on the projectile not indicate where ADI consider the optimum depth?
When measuring we made refernce blank rounds for:
35gr Hornady V-Max
50gr Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint
68gr Hornady Match BTHP
70gr Nosler RDF Match
All using 2206H
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Supaduke » 01 Jul 2017, 3:39 pm

If it chambers fine and the bolt doesn't need to be forced closed it shouldn't be an issue. The cannelure is indexed at a standardised length that will fit any .223, tailoring your round to suit your rifle will often go past this length.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 02 Jul 2017, 10:25 am

Ok Supaduke, thanks for that, I thought that would be the case but it always hurts less to ask a silly question than to make a mistake, particularly when setting off explosives in close proximity to one's face. Being so new to handloading and getting conflicting info from different sources can lead to unnecessary stressing over what can turn out to be minor issues.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 02 Jul 2017, 10:26 am

Ok Supaduke, thanks for that, I thought that would be the case but it always hurts less to ask a silly question than to make a mistake, particularly when setting off explosives in close proximity to one's face. Being so new to handloading and getting conflicting info from different sources can lead to unnecessary stressing over what can turn out to be minor issues.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 03 Jul 2017, 7:51 am

Ref those 62 FMJBT. Just to make sure that you know what you have. Get one of the projectiles and cut the jacket off of it. It may be just a lead core, but it may have a little tip of some other metal in the front of the lead but still contained In the jacket, just think about what you are using as a target butt. They tend to penetrate rather well. There are no identification markings on the projectile.
A single cut file would do, just file through the jacket at the tip.

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Last edited by Bills Shed on 12 Jul 2017, 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 11 Jul 2017, 9:18 pm

Thanks Bill,
I discovered that they were ADI SS109s when I tried to hollow point a few as I have done with other FMJ. I have built a jig to hold the projectiles at 90 deg to my vertical disc sander to take the tip down to just a couple of thou from the inside of the jacket which leaves a small dimple in the exact centre. In the past I have just drilled a 10mm deep 2mm hole, then with a 6mm bit I drill until it just creates a nice clean, balanced inverted cone in the lead with a similar look to some hollow point pistol rounds. They have worked with salutary results.
This time after breaking 2x2mm bits I put a magnet on them and, sure enough, they stuck. The front half of the core is steel. You can hit a bottle of water as close as 50m and rather than blow the bottle apart like a humble Winchester .22 Powerpoint will, they go through so cleanly they don't even knock the bottle over, they will however go through 1/4" mild steel at 200m like it was cheese.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by duncan61 » 11 Jul 2017, 9:47 pm

Where the hell did you get armour piercing bullets.I had read somewhere that the M16 was using 5.56 with a titanium rod in the middle as even the poorest African armies all have body armour now.Is it this stuff.I am not interested in legality just how far away will it penetrate say 20mm aluminium
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 11 Jul 2017, 10:13 pm

Hi Duncan
You have to love legal semantics. A FMJ projectile with a "single solid penetrative" core is considered as an Armour Piercing round, whereas if, as in the case of the SS109, they have a bi-metal core with one of the components being lead they are considered to be partially frangible and therefore do not legally qualify as AP and are legal for civvy use.
All that being said, they are only of use for target practice. Although the rabbits don't notice the difference when you poke them in the eye with them.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by duncan61 » 11 Jul 2017, 11:33 pm

Thanks for explaining that.I did get excited
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by duncan61 » 11 Jul 2017, 11:50 pm

I have googled it all and read the vast array of different military projectiles.I had an SLR then a Bren gun so I never used the M16
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 12 Jul 2017, 6:49 am

Agreed, the SS109 is not a AP projectile. When we shot falling plate competitions, the 308,SLR would slam the plate down but would seldom penetrate it. The SS109 would also knock the plate down with authority but not in the same league, but the penetration of the steel tip was equal to the 308 round. It was an interesting splash indentation. The SS109 made the classic dent in the 1/2" plate, but in the centre was a small hole that continued into the plate. At 200m neither the 308 or 5.56mm rounds penetrated that 1/2" plate but that little steel tip penetrated just as far as the 308 FMJ.
I am sure there would be a bit on YouTube if you you are really interested.

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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 12 Jul 2017, 11:51 am

Hi again Duncan,
Just realised that I only answered half your question. I have some scrap 10mm structural aluminium that I'm going use to make a spaced 3 layer laminate with 5mm spacing to test penetration at 100m. If they get through that I'll try with 2 laminates spaced about 100mm apart.
I'll put up some pics if you're interested
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Mitch@Ripley » 12 Jul 2017, 12:40 pm

Where did you get the projectiles? I have a weatherby vanguard s2 (essentially a howa 1500) and would be super keen to try these, I also reload which makes it a little easier
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 12 Jul 2017, 4:35 pm

Mitch
A friend gave me a small ziplock bag of them.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 12 Jul 2017, 4:48 pm

Mitch
Further to that last, just did a quick google and while there seems to be a plentiful supply of ADI M855 ammo available in the US, by the 900 round box ($350), this is the SS109 loaded in ADI brass, there was no mention of the pills themselves. I'll have find out now, you have me wondering too.
Typical about the ammo, made here and freely available to the US but non-existent on Aussie shelves.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by duncan61 » 12 Jul 2017, 4:53 pm

lucky f%$£^&£r
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Mitch@Ripley » 12 Jul 2017, 6:04 pm

Damn, I will look around and if it comes down to it I will ask ADI themselves and maybe sierra or another US manufacturer as these would be good for SHTF scenario (no, I'm not a prepper...just prepared ;) )

Also I will look at the requirements of getting the factory ammo, chances are I'd pull maybe half of them, use the (presumably) 5.56 brass for hunting loads and use the projectiles in ADI .223 annealed brass for match/plinking.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Mitch@Ripley » 12 Jul 2017, 7:56 pm

Hey everyone, I found them in a shop in the states :) http://www.evergladesammo.com/223-62gr- ... llets.html
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Jul 2017, 2:18 pm

Under the SS109s skirt
Attachments
SS109 Adcom PMC_resize.jpg
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by NuZo » 14 Jul 2017, 8:57 am

Hey All,

I've actually posted this in the other thread but just saw this one as well. Thought it might be interesting in case anyone hasn't seen the other thread.

I actually have a video from when I cut down some SS109's. They're not the most accurate pill in the world as they were just bulk produced for the military. But, cool none the less.

https://youtu.be/PCfGKlArwZ8

Cheers,

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A penetrating afternoon with SS109 et al

Post by Gaznazdiak » 16 Jul 2017, 6:45 pm

For Duncan 61
Because he asked.

I used a Hornady 68gr BTHP match for comparison.
And some ballistic tips, just because
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ss109-exit.jpg
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ss109-penetrator--scratch-.jpg
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SS109 penetrator.JPG
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ss109-secondary-impact-100m.jpg
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ss109-secondary-impact--50m.jpg
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Hornady 35gr.jpg
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Nosler 50gr.jpg
Nosler 50gr.jpg (1.55 MiB) Viewed 7836 times
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by straightshooter » 17 Jul 2017, 9:16 am

20+ years ago I lucked onto a large quantity of these ADI 223 projectiles. As a consequence I had to fit a new 1 in 9 twist barrel to my mini Mk X mauser and since then they are all I use when a 223 calibre is adequate for the expected game and ranges likely to be 200 meters or less.
These projectiles were developed to be compatible with the NATO SS109 specification, the main requirement being that the projectile retain enough energy to penetrate a helmet at 600 meters. Something the 55 grain projectiles couldn't do.
As a consequence the soft iron tip filler was thought by self styled 'experts' to play a role in enhancing penetration.
That is not the case. One of it's purposes and benefits is to make the projectile unstable when it enters it's target medium thus increasing it's wounding effect while still complying with the Hague Convention. It serves much the same purpose as the aluminium tip filler in MkVII 303 projectiles.
So if you understand that you should realize that there is nothing to be gained by trying to 'soft point' these projectiles, the more likely outcome will be a loss of BC and accuracy.
The purpose of the cannelure is for crimping the case mouth and it is positioned such that the projectile can be seated to a standard COL. Obviously for custom ammunition it doesn't matter. I recall that ADI also made these projectiles without a cannelure for fullbore shooters but they didn't catch on, the criticism being that they were insufficiently accurate.
I developed loads using BM2, 2206 (without the H) and 2208 and settled on BM2 which gave the best results out of my 20 inch barrel.
The projectiles I have look like rejects or seconds of some kind but they still managed to group a little over 1" at 100 yards for a 10 shot group.
I have used them on goats and medium sized pigs with good results and extensively on smaller game.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 17 Jul 2017, 10:22 am

Still on the pentetrating question of terminal performance, has anybody tried making ballistics gel from ordinary gelatin?
Did it work?
Any special tricks?
Was it clear enough to be worth th effort?
After reading straightshooter's post I would like to test the destabilisation vs penetration assertion.
BTW, nothing remotely soft or mild about the steel half of these cores, I broke 2 HSS drill bits without doing more than putting a tiny shiny dot on the end.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 17 Jul 2017, 2:22 pm

straightshooter
I did notice that at 100m the new Nosler 70gr Reduced Drag Factor BTHP match bullet left a far more authoritative impression on a rail sleeper plate than the 62gr SS109, although you you can see evidence of it's steel cap.
Except for the divot from the cap of the SS109 the Nosler hit was about twice the overall depth.

A digression on the subject of the new RDF projectiles, at 400m in a 15kph quartering wind that moved the 68gr Hornady match nearly 200mm, the RDF were not visibly affected and grouped about 1/3 the size.
Attachments
Nosle RDF.JPG
Nosle RDF.JPG (715.96 KiB) Viewed 7814 times
SS109.JPG
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by straightshooter » 18 Jul 2017, 7:58 am

Gaznazdiak wrote:Still on the pentetrating question of terminal performance, has anybody tried making ballistics gel from ordinary gelatin?
Did it work?
Any special tricks?
Was it clear enough to be worth th effort?
After reading straightshooter's post I would like to test the destabilisation vs penetration assertion.
BTW, nothing remotely soft or mild about the steel half of these cores, I broke 2 HSS drill bits without doing more than putting a tiny shiny dot on the end.


After reading your post last night I tried to do a longitudinal cut on one of these projectiles with a jeweller's saw. Cut through the jacket tip OK and made a slight start on the insert but the saw teeth very quickly became dull and stopped cutting.
Looks like I had a misapprehension about the actual material of the insert although I vaguely remember doing much the same thing 25 years ago and being able to cut through it.
Your steel plate tests are interesting and no doubt fun, as would be ballistic gel tests, but they don't tell you what you really want to know. That is how they perform on real living breathing moving ballistic gel.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 18 Jul 2017, 1:08 pm

Hi straightshooter
You are exactly right about real world results being the only ones that matter particularly if you are taking a life.
To paraphrase what bladeracer has said on this subject, shot placement is paramount. I only use these for headshooting rabbits at 1-200m. At longer ranges I prefer to use match BTHP, like the new Nosler RDF 70gr which not only have the accuracy for head shots at 450-500m but as the track plate impact shows strike with sufficient energy to ensure an instant, humane kill.
My desire to test the SS109 in gel is not an attempt to disparage your statement on the purpose behind the core construction, it sounds quite logical to me. I was reading about a Russian research project that has produced a new type of projectile, the internal construction of which allows it to bend on impact and tumble through the target. It doesn't expand in cross sectional diameter and as such is still legal under the 1907 convention.
I also want to compare results between BTHP rounds and ballistic tips as well.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by Gaznazdiak » 21 Jul 2017, 4:36 pm

For anyone still interested in the SS109

I thought of a different way to test/prove straightshooter's statement about the purpose of the steel half of the SS109 core being to destabilize and veer off path without messing with gel and video etc by using "bullet resistant" polycarbonate.
The fist pic is a Winchester .22 PowerPoint at 100m on one 9mm sheet.
Even in the process of disintegrating the Nosler 50gr ballistic tip projectile's path was straight. The last pic says all that remains to be said on the subject.
Straightshooter knows his sh*t.
Attachments
Win.22 PowerPoint100m.jpg
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Nosler 50gr 1st layer entry.jpg
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Nosler 50gr second layer exit.jpg
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Nosler 50gr 3rd layer exit.jpg
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Nosler 50gr remains.jpg
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Nosler 50gr effect on target.jpg
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SS109 entry 1st layer.jpg
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SS109 path side.jpg
SS109 path side.jpg (285.36 KiB) Viewed 7754 times
PROOF!.jpg
PROOF!.jpg (310.11 KiB) Viewed 7754 times
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by InisBineest » 06 Jan 2021, 2:28 pm

Very interesting, I've just bought 500 pulled 62gr fmj milsups with no further info, keen to dissect one and see its guts. On a side note, all of mine were marred when pulled (looks like Pliers were used) will be interesting too see how badly it effects the accuracy, though with these I'm not chasing moa
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by in2anity » 06 Jan 2021, 8:13 pm

Good stuff boys. Thanks.
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Re: Loading .223 military projectiles

Post by JohnV » 08 Jan 2021, 10:40 am

Gaznazdiak wrote:Thanks Bill,
I discovered that they were ADI SS109s when I tried to hollow point a few as I have done with other FMJ. I have built a jig to hold the projectiles at 90 deg to my vertical disc sander to take the tip down to just a couple of thou from the inside of the jacket which leaves a small dimple in the exact centre. In the past I have just drilled a 10mm deep 2mm hole, then with a 6mm bit I drill until it just creates a nice clean, balanced inverted cone in the lead with a similar look to some hollow point pistol rounds. They have worked with salutary results.
This time after breaking 2x2mm bits I put a magnet on them and, sure enough, they stuck. The front half of the core is steel. You can hit a bottle of water as close as 50m and rather than blow the bottle apart like a humble Winchester .22 Powerpoint will, they go through so cleanly they don't even knock the bottle over, they will however go through 1/4" mild steel at 200m like it was cheese.

Unless you can hollow point them with precision it is better to just cut the very tip off nice and square . This has less likelihood of creating an out of balance bullet .
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