Black Market Guns

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Black Market Guns

Post by Anon E Mouse » 05 Jul 2017, 5:47 pm

I've been in a discussion (more of an argument really) with an Australian obnoxiously criticizing us for our guns in the USA, and getting most of her facts wrong in the process. It was an exercise in misinformation and general silliness. She, incredibly, said that the reason Americans don't see the problem with guns is because of deep seated cultural cognitive dissonance. I filed that under the irony heading. Anyway, one thing she claimed is that a black market hand gun in Australia is $15,000. I find this rather hard to believe. It seems to me that if $15,000 was the going price for a handgun people would be knocking themselves out to smuggle them into the country before increased supply undermined these prices. Her claim seems unbelievable to me.

Note that I'm not advocating smuggling guns into Australia or any other illegal activity under Australia's laws. It just seems that this claim of hers as to the price of black market guns is outlandish. Reading the few newspaper accounts I've been able to find on this makes it seem that there is no shortage of illegally imported guns in Sydney and Melbourne.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by dpskipper » 17 Jul 2017, 2:39 pm

Shes a stupid libshit. Can't argue with dumb
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by southwest shooter » 17 Jul 2017, 2:59 pm

Sounds like a fakn idjiit to me .
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by AusTac » 17 Jul 2017, 3:22 pm

Agree to disagree and move on eaither to another topic or just walk away, shes not worth your time or breath
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Daddybang » 17 Jul 2017, 4:07 pm

15,000 for a black market hand gun. :lol: :lol: :lol: maybe 1500 but I'm not in the illegal gun game so that's just a guess. Some people are really not worth wasting ya breath on. :drinks:
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Tinked » 17 Jul 2017, 4:33 pm

Daddybang wrote:15,000 for a black market hand gun. :lol: :lol: :lol: maybe 1500 but I'm not in the illegal gun game so that's just a guess. Some people are really not worth wasting ya breath on. :drinks:


The cops have quoted prices in several articles over the years when they've found them and it's never anything like $15k.

Hundreds or low thousands for something particular/rare.

I guess she's trying to paint the picture that all us LAFO are going to struggle with the temptation not to sell our firearms on the black market.

I'm super keen to sell my guns that are registered with the state police and due to be inspected. Fool proof money maker, right? :sarcasm:

She's talking nonsense.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by 9line » 17 Jul 2017, 4:43 pm

...and tonight on A Current Affair, the gun-nut website openly discussing black market weapons, how to keep your kids safe from them coming up next!
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Wombat » 17 Jul 2017, 11:02 pm

A long time ago I ran out of fuel in Clifton Hill on a Motorbike and had a Motorcycle courier stop and help. It must have been just after the Hoddle St Shootings, because the conversation turned to the coming changes to Victorian Firearms laws.Turns out he had come over from WA after serving time for thieving a dozen or so L1A1's, he said that he had gotten $2500 ea for them back then. $2500 in the 1980's isn't that far off $15000 now.
Only met the bloke once, never wanted anything to do with dodgy types, he may have just been full of it.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by pete1 » 17 Jul 2017, 11:13 pm

Maybe if it was a Automatic pistol 15000 I've heard figgers of 5000 on the black market for a handgun, In life there is lots of people who know little but think the know it all.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by GLS_1956 » 17 Jul 2017, 11:43 pm

Well the only "Black Market" guns I've heard of, and I'm assuming that they were stolen, were going for a couple of hundred dollars.
I've been asked: "How many guns do you need to have?" My answer remains the same: "One more."
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by pomemax » 18 Jul 2017, 12:28 am

Never argue with an idiot, People watching won’t be able to tell the difference.
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Just two of the many quote ,s from history
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Member-Deleted » 20 Jul 2017, 4:16 pm

Thing is if you really wanted one,you could get one.
I have heard between 3-5k.
P.S Dont know were I heard that. :crazy:
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Heckler303 » 21 Jul 2017, 8:43 am

I'm sure we have all heard in passing of black market firearms, and with that, I've not heard of any of them being anywhere near that price. She's obviously making that up on the spot.

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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Osty » 21 Jul 2017, 2:28 pm

Although $15k sounds a little ludicrous, I'd be fairly confident in assuming a black market handgun here would be significantly more expensive than the legal equivalent in the US. Significant enough to encourage these guys to break the law trying to smuggle them in:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-15/f ... wn/8526592

The substance of the argument is sound though the numbers she claims may be exaggerated. I wouldn't write her off as a 'stupid libtard' on this point.
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Post by Gwion » 21 Jul 2017, 4:20 pm

sungazer wrote:Im sure that smuggling in dope would be easier and more profitable on a weight and size basis. I would rekon that most illegal guns would be from Australian legal stock once upon a time.


I hope you are wearing your asbestos suit because that is a very unpopular and questionable view point. Kind'a makes you sound like a anti gun activist. :problem:
In fact, there were submissions to the resent senate inquiry from state police services that actually dispute this point. When it comes to illicit hand guns; and let's face it, drug lords aren't interested in target rifles as a tool of trade; the problem is by far and away our porous boarders and ease of smuggling.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jul 2017, 7:31 pm

sungazer wrote:Im sure that smuggling in dope would be easier and more profitable on a weight and size basis. I would rekon that most illegal guns would be from Australian legal stock once upon a time.



I would agree that most illegal guns by far were legally owned here, if you accept that they're illegal simply because they've never been registered. There are probably way more than a million "illegal" firearms still around. We know they were imported by the container load, they were sold to the public in the hundreds of thousands, they have never been handed in, so unless we accept that the owners themselves destroyed all these firearms or shipped them overseas then they do still exist out there somewhere.

But these firearms are not showing up in criminal activity or even in criminal hands. They aren't showing up at all. I'm talking about all the M1 Carbines, SKS rifles, AG42's, Mini-14's and such that many, many shooters owned in the eighties. In my book though, these firearms cannot be considered in the same analysis as criminally-owned firearms. They were made illegal by an act of the government, and may well be made legal again if we can fix our stupid laws. They clearly don't do any harm within society and it would be a immense waste of resources to go looking for them. Criminally-owned guns are generally not old legally-owned guns that went rogue. They simply import whatever they want when they want it.

We like to think ourselves isolated from the nasties on our little "island", but PNG is only 150kms away (David Walliams _swam_ further than that), the longest stretch of water is under 50km. Pulau Yamenda is 320kms and Timor is 450kms away. Boats or seaplanes would consider it a mere hop and well worth the slight risk. And I'm sure these places have literally tons of firearms lying around, and no problem getting more of the same.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Daddybang » 21 Jul 2017, 7:41 pm

bladeracer wrote:
sungazer wrote:Im sure that smuggling in dope would be easier and more profitable on a weight and size basis. I would rekon that most illegal guns would be from Australian legal stock once upon a time.



I would agree that most illegal guns by far were legally owned here, if you accept that they're illegal simply because they've never been registered. There are probably way more than a million "illegal" firearms still around. We know they were imported by the container load, they were sold to the public in the hundreds of thousands, they have never been handed in, so unless we accept that the owners themselves destroyed all these firearms or shipped them overseas then they do still exist out there somewhere.

But these firearms are not showing up in criminal activity or even in criminal hands. They aren't showing up at all. I'm talking about all the M1 Carbines, SKS rifles, AG42's, Mini-14's and such that many, many shooters owned in the eighties. In my book though, these firearms cannot be considered in the same analysis as criminally-owned firearms. They were made illegal by an act of the government, and may well be made legal again if we can fix our stupid laws. They clearly don't do any harm within society and it would be a immense waste of resources to go looking for them. Criminally-owned guns are generally not old legally-owned guns that went rogue. They simply import whatever they want when they want it.

We like to think ourselves isolated from the nasties on our little "island", but PNG is only 150kms away (David Walliams _swam_ further than that), the longest stretch of water is under 50km. Pulau Yamenda is 320kms and Timor is 450kms away. Boats or seaplanes would consider it a mere hop and well worth the slight risk. And I'm sure these places have literally tons of firearms lying around, and no problem getting more of the same.



Yep saibai is only 13km from png (you can see the png coast flying in) Noone really knows how much contraband comes in from the Torres straits thru the Cape and gulf country. :unknown:
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by sungazer » 22 Jul 2017, 12:03 pm

I dont mean it to be anti guns at all. Just a numbers thing how much does a handgun weigh how much space does it occupy? I would guesstimate that it equates to at least the same dimensions as 1kg of something else illicit then just compare the $$. I dont know but even at $15k I would have thought a Kg of something else would be worth more. Smugglers do it for a profit and ease of getting away with it. that all my point is.

I also agree with Bladeracer to a point a lot of the guns that have never been handed back although illegal are not in the hands of crims as they are put away even more safely by their previous owners. i have heard stories around the place about some of these having been buried under sheds and such places. The legally owned guns that have been stolen and the ones that were imported legally but stolen before sale. I do think end up in the hands of crims. I mean the minute that they are stolen puts them in the hands of crims.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jul 2017, 12:12 pm

sungazer wrote:I mean the minute that they are stolen puts them in the hands of crims.


Of course, anything that is stolen is in the hands of criminals, but if they're not being used in violent acts then I don't much care who has them.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Jul 2017, 9:34 am

You know its good to listen on this forum to peoples thoughts on black market guns and how much their disliked
so i've got a guestion ;How many gun licence holders have been prosecuted for dealing in hot guns?
I can't think of any
So why doesn't this send a message to the government for gun owners as a whole ?

The reason i ask is a fella up here was caught with drugs,hand gun ( not licenced ) and stolen goods he was given 2 yr bond
because it was his first offence
A licenced gun owner would probably get 2 yr bond loose all his guns and licence for good and most likely a hefty fine first offence
or not

I don't want to sound like a stickler but i don't think the penalties for dealing black market guns is heavy enough after all these people
know they are doing wrong so that puts them in the criminal basket

The only thing feared by humans is fear itself and until criminals fear getting caught and all is taken from them and only then will you see
a drop in illegal guns and illegal activity so penalties have to be appropriate

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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Jandamurra » 27 Jul 2017, 3:30 pm

grandadbushy wrote:You know its good to listen on this forum to peoples thoughts on black market guns and how much their disliked
so i've got a guestion ;How many gun licence holders have been prosecuted for dealing in hot guns?
I can't think of any
So why doesn't this send a message to the government for gun owners as a whole ?

The reason i ask is a fella up here was caught with drugs,hand gun ( not licenced ) and stolen goods he was given 2 yr bond
because it was his first offence
A licenced gun owner would probably get 2 yr bond loose all his guns and licence for good and most likely a hefty fine first offence
or not

I don't want to sound like a stickler but i don't think the penalties for dealing black market guns is heavy enough after all these people
know they are doing wrong so that puts them in the criminal basket

The only thing feared by humans is fear itself and until criminals fear getting caught and all is taken from them and only then will you see
a drop in illegal guns and illegal activity so penalties have to be appropriate

Cheers


I agree with all of this, except for one thing I fell needs to be included.
I would like to see penalties for licensed shooters not doing everything exactly by the book, as long as it wasn't a clear safety concern, be greatly reduced or eliminated.
Of course, I'd like to see virtually all our gun laws eliminated, but IMHO it's practical for the foreseeable future to call for INREASED penalties for crims and DECREASED penalties for LAFO's. NSW has recently changed their storage inspection rules so shooters can receive a warning rather than loss of licence or a big fine for various oversights.
We need a lot more of that along with tougher penalties for crime.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Member-Deleted » 27 Jul 2017, 11:22 pm

You know i think to get everything back to being great in this land there will have to be several box's of rinso soap suds bought
Throw 1 box in the washing machine with the law courts, 1 with the lawyers, 1 with the police department , 1 with the pollies wash for 6 mths
then only keep the clean ones then things may change

TRIVIA ;a criminal was caught with unlicenced guns, no gun licence and drugs
He was charged with posessing firearms without a licence,unregestered firearms and posession of drugs
This sounds ok but why wasn't he charged with not having his firearms stored in a safe manner ?
Now has any body ever heard of a criminal being charged with not having safe storage ?
I haven't
Well we are not criminals and we would be charged if our guns were not stored properly as the law requires (PLEASE EXPLAIN)

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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jul 2017, 11:25 pm

grandadbushy wrote:You know i think to get everything back to being great in this land there will have to be several box's of rinso soap suds bought
Throw 1 box in the washing machine with the law courts, 1 with the lawyers, 1 with the police department , 1 with the pollies wash for 6 mths
then only keep the clean ones then things may change

TRIVIA ;a criminal was caught with unlicenced guns, no gun licence and drugs
He was charged with posessing firearms without a licence,unregestered firearms and posession of drugs
This sounds ok but why wasn't he charged with not having his firearms stored in a safe manner ?
Now has any body ever heard of a criminal being charged with not having safe storage ?
I haven't
Well we are not criminals and we would be charged if our guns were not stored properly as the law requires (PLEASE EXPLAIN)

Cheers


By not having a licence he never said he would comply with the rules of firearm storage anyway?
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Member-Deleted » 27 Jul 2017, 11:37 pm

I didn't know that we had a choice

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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Gwion » 28 Jul 2017, 8:09 am

Your choice is getting a licence!

Reading the legislation it seems penalties for infractions by licenced shooters are heavier than those for criminals who are found with firearms.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Wombat » 28 Jul 2017, 6:17 pm

Smuggling is like any other business. You buy cheap and sell at a profit. Cocaine is not easy or cheap to obtain anywhere, firearms however are relatively easy to buy at little or no risk in the US. I've known three blokes who used to smuggle things, one was smuggling cigarette papers into Jamaica, one condoms into Ireland and another a Photocopier into Russia.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by happyhunter » 29 Jul 2017, 8:47 am

Cocaine is not easy or cheap to obtain anywhere, firearms however are relatively easy to buy at little or no risk in the US

Actually, cocaine is also cheap and easy to buy in the U.S
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by sebrule » 29 Jul 2017, 9:03 am

Glocks $3k in the box. With numbers removed. Hot pistols that you would never want to be caught with normally between $200-$1000.

Rifles were always odd priced. Some $50 and up.

Shotguns $200 though pump actions the price was normally around $500-1000.

This is going back 10 years mind you. Though I cant see prices changing all that much.

I'll make this clear I have no contact to people that deal or have these types of firearms any more.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by Wombat » 29 Jul 2017, 10:43 am

happyhunter wrote:
Cocaine is not easy or cheap to obtain anywhere, firearms however are relatively easy to buy at little or no risk in the US

Actually, cocaine is also cheap and easy to buy in the U.S

Retail quantities sure. But kilograms? I dont think it would be as easy or cheap as you think.
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Re: Black Market Guns

Post by happyhunter » 30 Jul 2017, 7:49 am

Wombat wrote:
happyhunter wrote:
Cocaine is not easy or cheap to obtain anywhere, firearms however are relatively easy to buy at little or no risk in the US

Actually, cocaine is also cheap and easy to buy in the U.S

Retail quantities sure. But kilograms? I dont think it would be as easy or cheap as you think.


The larger the quantity, the cheaper the product per unit volume. That is the entire premise of buying anything in bulk, not excluding groceries, ammunition baking flour, etc..
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