Most efficient route to an accurate load.

[Stix]

Hi folks...
Ive been reading here for some time, but im a first time poster here...a true virgin infact-this is my first EVER post on ANY internet forum...

Im wondering if any of you folks would be kind enough to share your wisdom & any advice on the most EFFICIENT way to achieve an accurate load-efficient in both time & consumables.

I do have what i believe to be a sound understanding of the basic principles of reloading reasonably accurate ammo in a hunting rifle, but at the same time im not a BR shooter & im a loonnnng way off knowing everthing.

Im about to shoot my brand new 22-250 with new brass, & i dont want to chase my tail with seating depth & powder charge as ive done in the past...

Whilst ill greatly appreciate any advice given, im not nessrly after opinions on such things as how often to clean brass, or to FL size every firing or not...but having said that, if you think such things are directly critical im keen to hear it...

The rifle will be a hunting/varmint outfit most likely shooting 50-55 grnrs, & ideally i want to milk as much accuracy out of the rifle as i am capable of--im not the type who is satisfied with moa while not having tried to do better.
I have a Magneto chrono to work with.

So...some questions that come to my OCD riddled mind are...

Is it worth fire forming brass with bullet jammed so the case is only supported on the face of the bolt & is concentric to the chamber...? (Ive never done this before so im weary of pressure).

If so, using ADI data as a reference, how low should one start with powder charge to be safe...?...if doing this i wouldnt want to be so conservative so as to have the charge weight safe & not fully form the case(s) in one firing..

If not forming (or getting load data) with proj jammed, where to start with seating depth to find the ideal charge weight..? (at listed COAL...?, bullet seated in neck to calibre depth...?, a given distance off the lands...?, or COAL at mag length less a smidge..?--i have wasted plenty of powder in the past chasing my tail doing variations of all of the above... )...

Once an ideal charge appears at any given seating depth, & seating depth is altered to (hopefully) further refine the load, is there a point where seating further away from lands renders that charge too weak...?... (scratch that-i guess thats a self defeating question as the groups would answer that).

If you change to a different projectile of the same weight, where ogive measurement is different & the same distance to the lands cannot be achieved due to mag length restrictions, what is the best process to find the sweet spot for the new proj..?--new load test to find powder charge then seating depth, or play with seating depth based on charge weight for previous proj...?

Also--the rifle has MOA warranty...im curious to hear your opinions on initial shooting with factory rounds vs handloads...
On one hand, initial testing with factory rounds will estabish if its a shooter under warranty conditions quicker, while not risking forming brass to a chamber in a rifle that may be sent back if its not a shooter...
On the other hand, factory rounds are expensive & i already have all required consumables, so if initially shot with hand loads i can fire form brass, settle the barrel down & start to get an idea of load data, all in the one exercise, thus maximising long term barrel life......which way would you go...?

I could go on & ask a thousand questions, but i rather be guided by you more experienced folk.
Any advice, whether it be a simple dot pointed list, or an in depth description on any particular process you use will be greatly appreciated...

Apologies if ive asked any silly questions without thinking it through further myself--like the self defeating one i asked above...
...& i hope ive articulated myself well enough for you know where im coming from...if ive missed any info you need to best answer, just let me know...

Cheers...!!!

[Wm.Traynor]

Stix,
It is my melancholy duty to inform you that you could easily get a lot of conflicting replies. Firstly, it is "interesting" that you have an moa guarantee. You see; there is the first point of controversy. Sorry 'bout that.
However, safety is your primary concern. Do not seat bullets against the lands. Forget fire-forming. For a hunting rifle the OL must be consistent with reliable feeding from the magazine. Try 0.030" jump to the lands for starters. Start with ADI's minimum charges. A ladder test is highly recommended and the chrony will tell you when velocity is not increasing in keeping with successive increases in powder charges. In other words, velocity increase is not linear. Instead, the rate of increase diminishes, following the Law of Diminishing Returns (if you want a bit of reading )
That should be enough to digest for a while. Good Luck

[Supaduke]

A few things I have learnt.

Don't bother load testing in sh1t weather. If it's windy , forget it.

For a hunting rifle, if it won't fit the mag, forget it, not practical.

Load at least 5 rounds of different charge weights and fire them off in fairly quick succession.

Only change one variable at a time, be it seating depth or charge weight.

There really is no short cut to finding that perfect load beyond good ol fashioned trial and error.

You may get lucky and stumble across that perfect combo pretty early in testing, you may not.

Find a load that shoots well before you get to excited about chronograph's etc.

Me personally, I start big, with .5gr increments, then refine , refine, refine. I always start with factory ammo to get a starting point on performance and to fireform some brass. Don't get started on the whole 'should I run a barrel in' argument, it always ends in a ****** , for and against. If you want to run it in, do it (I don't)

Fine tuning is very subjective, one man's ' good enough' is another man's 'barely getting started'.

Load development is science mixed with luck.
Record and contain your variables.

Sometimes you get lucky and get there quickly , sometimes you are unlucky and choose a powder or projectile that just doesn't gel with your rifle and all your testing is not worth a pinch of poo.

As I said, I start at max mag length , at a length that feeds, chambers and ejects reliably, .5gr increments and try to isolate a range of weights that show promise. Then reload with smaller increments , refine the range. Then tweak seating depth.

[Chronos]

Talking from a view of finding an accurate hunting load. As Super said above, work with mag length and make life simple for you, don't fall for the "closer to the lands is more accurate" talk, that mainly applied to tangent ogive VLD target pills in custom chambers

For me I like to start by finding the bullet I want to use, then the most appropriate powder (It's amazing how many people plug away with a powder that's not ideal)

Then I look at the charge weight range, start about 1gr above minimum and load one round up to max and maybe .5-1gr over max and in either .3 or .5gr steps depending on case capacity. then I shoot them off over a chrony looking for pressure signs and recording velocity.

Somewhere there will be at least 1 or two nodes where velocity steps are closer, to me that's an indication that any load charge variation wont give big elevation changes at longer ranges

At this point I've only shot 6-8 rounds

Then i go back and load smaller charge steps either side of the range I want to work in, maybe 4-5 of each step, gives enough of any one load to resight the rifle in but I rarely shoot more than 3 shot groups of any one load. to me there's no point shooting more than 3 shots, A decent shooter will know if the load is good and 5 rounds is great on a heavy barreled target gun but can be misleading on a light weight barrel that drifts when hot

At this point I've fires around 20 rounds with a couple of loaded rounds from each batch

I'll often make final zeroing adjustments, clean the gun and pack up then go home and load the last of the bullets and brass to the load that gave the best group and put them away for hunting.

Chronos

[Wm.Traynor]

, don't fall for the "closer to the lands is more accurate" talk, that mainly applied to tangent ogive VLD target pills in custom chambers
Chronos

Chronos is right. Not many people seem to know that.

[marksman]

here you go
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

[bigfellascott]

I found 2206H behind a 55gn projectile to be a good combo for my Howa 22.250, from memory my go to load was 34.5gn but don't quote me on it as it's been a few years since I've loaded any for it (it wasn't a hot load either) about mid range from memory and doing around 3600fps if memory serves me correctly.

[Oldbloke]

My 3 rifles seem to be happy with 20 though of an inch off the lands.
No expert here.
Always trim
FLR size but the minimum, never neck size.
Start at the ADI minimum.
4 rounds each load 0.5gr increase at a time up till Max/pressure issues or groups are obviously sh1t. Checking pressure signs all the time.
Once I get an aprox load that groups reasonable / OK I go back and try a few more loads (4 each) 0.2 or 0.3 gr increments to fine tune.
I don't worry about the velocity, the foxes don't care about 100fps one way or the other.

Each rifle is different. I have a Mod 70 loves hot loads and my two Marlins like mild loads so you never know.

Ask other 22-250 owners about powder.
Good rest,
Maybe shoot a fowler
Take your time,
No wind

[marksman]

I have a ruger vt in 22-250 it is a quarter minute shooter all day most groups would be better and 1 ragged hole
it likes 50 grain nosler shots, federal 210 match primers and 2208 powder with a 4mm jump and light lee factory crimp
the velocity is 3700 fps with 9 fps es
I've had this rifle for years and used the ocw method I put in the link in my other post above
its a great round

[Stix]

, don't fall for the "closer to the lands is more accurate" talk, that mainly applied to tangent ogive VLD target pills in custom chambers
Chronos

Chronos is right. Not many people seem to know that.

Im one of those people...or should i say 'was'.

[straightshooter]

Hi folks...
etc.

I have been around for a long time and see that in reality and in essence very little has changed.
Your post kind of reminds me of the many tear stained letters sent to 'Uncle Nick' over the years asking for his secret load that would transform an average 'RemChester' into a super accurate tack driver.
The first thing to understand is that no special load recipe will overcome issues emanating from the various parts of the shooting system if any part of that system in fact has issues.
The reality is that if you load safe and consistent (eg. negligible bullet runout for one and the list goes on) ammunition then you should enjoy as good accuracy as your shooting system is capable of producing.
The best practical accuracy will come if you are prepared to shoot a sufficient sample size at a long enough range to obtain a true group center.
Many shooters are deluded by advertising jibber or a belief in magic or a thought process that goes something like this.
Formula 1 cars put nitrogen in their tyres so if I put nitrogen in the tyres on my 1995 corolla then it will go like a formula 1 car.
Cynicism is my reward for being around a long time and having gone down many of the dead ends others these days recommend.

[Gwion]

This is my process:

1/ For a target round i start with ogive on lands, with a hunting round i start at max mag length minus 1mm (or how ever much it takes to make it trouble free in the mag).
2/ I tend to start testing about 1/3 up from book min in 0.3gn increments up to book max.
3/ Shoot three-round groups and look for a load that has similar sized groups an POI either side of it, usually somewhere in the middle, i find. I look for consistency in both vertical and horizontal spread. This usually takes 15 rounds.
4/ Pick the "middle load" and load 5 rounds either side of it by 0.1gn. I might also load a few singles up beyond book max in 0.2gn increments to see if it is safe to experiment further at a later date and record when pressure signs begin to show. Lets say another 10-15 rounds.
5/ Pick the best group from previous testing and load 15 round and fire 3x5-round groups to confirm. By now there is usually a group of around the 0.5MOA range. At this stage i load 50 rounds & start using the ammo and make slight changes to test from time to time to see if there is any improvement. Any improvements shown are noted for the next batch.

As i have a gully in the back paddock, i can load, test and reload all in one day so i can get my load development done in one day to this point and then just tweak seating another time.

[Gwion]

Just looking at my last post, what i thought was quite efficient now looks a bit wasteful. I have come up with an idea that i will test soon, as i want to find a new load for my 223 with a faster powder to reduce muzzle flash from the short barrel. This is my idea:

1/ Start at length shown to feed well and work with current load.
2/ Load single rounds throughout book data, starting 1/3 from minimum (AR2207 start at 20 up to 21.6 = 8 rounds).
3/ Make targets from graph paper and shoot one shot at each.
4/ Overlay targets and look for a range of charges that are forming a group around a shared POI.
5/ Pick middle of that range and load 5 rounds plus 5 round 0.2 either side.
6/ Shoot and test.
7/ Load 10 of best group to confirm.

If it works it will save me about 15 rounds.

[marksman]

Hi folks...
etc.

I have been around for a long time and see that in reality and in essence very little has changed.
Your post kind of reminds me of the many tear stained letters sent to 'Uncle Nick' over the years asking for his secret load that would transform an average 'RemChester' into a super accurate tack driver.
The first thing to understand is that no special load recipe will overcome issues emanating from the various parts of the shooting system if any part of that system in fact has issues.
The reality is that if you load safe and consistent (eg. negligible bullet runout for one and the list goes on) ammunition then you should enjoy as good accuracy as your shooting system is capable of producing.
The best practical accuracy will come if you are prepared to shoot a sufficient sample size at a long enough range to obtain a true group center.
Many shooters are deluded by advertising jibber or a belief in magic or a thought process that goes something like this.
Formula 1 cars put nitrogen in their tyres so if I put nitrogen in the tyres on my 1995 corolla then it will go like a formula 1 car.
Cynicism is my reward for being around a long time and having gone down many of the dead ends others these days recommend.

I like what you have said

[southwest shooter]

Plenty of load testing is the key .

[Stix]

Thanks for all your input...its all appreciated...!
I have some questions ill post below.

[Stix]

[quote="Wm.Traynor"]Stix,
It is my melancholy duty to inform you that you could easily get a lot of conflicting replies. Firstly, it is "interesting" that you have an moa guarantee. You see; there is the first point of controversy. Sorry 'bout that.

Yes there sre some differing, & interesting advice...which is good...im a believer the old saying of many ways to skin a cat...(i have 2 wsys myself-one with my knife, the other is ftom directly in front on at approx 10 degree elevation with a 22-250...!)

But may i ask you to further explain your point if controversy with regard to MOA warranty...?

Aside from that, the method i normally use is as u describe with 4 shot groups, stop with pressure signs, recheck around the printed (targets) & chrono data....

Cheers

[Stix]

A few things I have learnt.

Load at least 5 rounds of different charge weights and fire them off in fairly quick succession.
----- -----
Find a load that shoots well before you get to excited about chronograph's etc.
----- -----
Don't get started on the whole 'should I run a barrel in' argument, it always ends in a ****** , for and against. If you want to run it in, do it (I don't)

Is there a reason for firing in quick succession...?
(I normally take my time--ie shoot off 4 shots in say 3-5 mins, recording poi & velocity in between shots).

In the past i have chased my tail without a chrono--for example, my last 250 i went with the best load as printed on targets but at 300-400 yds would print flyers with huge elevation variations...when i finally got to chrono the load it had ES of up to 100 f/s...
You suggest not to get excited about a chrono before a load is found, given my previous experience, is there something ive missed in the past when ive done this...?

As for barrel break...i just do a bit of a cleaning untill the rifle stops lining the barrel with copper...i did 2 new rifles/barrels this year, one took 18-20 odd rounds before it stopped fouling, the other didnt foul at all from the get go...i dont let the cleaning stop me using the shots as testing data...
Hope this doesnt open up a debate, but thats what i do...

[Stix]

For me I like to start by finding the bullet I want to use, then the most appropriate powder (It's amazing how many people plug away with a powder that's not ideal)

Then I look at the charge weight range, start about 1gr above minimum and load one round up to max and maybe .5-1gr over max and in either .3 or .5gr steps depending on case capacity. then I shoot them off over a chrony looking for pressure signs and recording velocity.

Somewhere there will be at least 1 or two nodes where velocity steps are closer, to me that's an indication that any load charge variation wont give big elevation changes at longer ranges

At this point I've only shot 6-8 rounds

Then i go back and load smaller charge steps either side of the range I want to work in, maybe 4-5 of each step, gives enough of any one load to resight the rifle in but I rarely shoot more than 3 shot groups of any one load. to me there's no point shooting more than 3 shots, A decent shooter will know if the load is good and 5 rounds is great on a heavy barreled target gun but can be misleading on a light weight barrel that drifts when hot

At this point I've fires around 20 rounds... ... ...

Chronos

Wow...im impressed...seriously...!!!

Firstly, i was going to shoot what i have...one of the following...hdy 50z & vmax, nos 50 & 55bt, sie 55 gameking, sie 55 varmnt (flat base)...
Was going to push them with 2208, but i also have 2209, 2206h, bm2, & 2207...
Is my choice of 2208 correct...?..., if not can you suggest what i should use & why...?

As for initial one shot/ charge weight with chrono to see where velocities are close... ...
On another rifle, i recently got 2 loads where the velocities overlapped with say up to 80fps es over both loads, the targets were absolute shyte (2moa) so i discounted them as other loads had es of 20 & sd <10fps & printed .25moa (100m)...
If i only shot one of each of these charges i could either get a false positive, or potentially miss a node...
So if its simple enough to answer, my question is how do you know you (or how would i know) i dont miss a node just shooting one shot initially...?...

Cheers

[Supaduke]

Fairly quick succession so that conditions are similar. Comes back to containing variables.

Chrono's to me, are for checking consistency of powder charges and for sorting drop tables etc. While starting load development, who cares how fast it's going if it doesn't shoot. Chronograohs are for fine tuning loads that have potential. A second stage tool. A round that is accurate at 100m will be accurate at any distance. In my experience, there is no such thing as a round that is not accurate at 100m but somehow becomes accurate at 200m etc. Millifart differences in powder charge and velocity have minimal impact on performance at initial testing distances.

Running barrels in is a subject that has been discussed ad nauseum, plenty of opinions on that , I don't bother beyond a few shots , a clean and away we go. That's a personal choice.

Also I do 5 shots to get a better average. Firing only a couple, you may inadvertently pull a shot or get a puff of wind. Having only a small range of data , you can end up with a skewed result because of shooter error. You may then end up persuing a load that is crap because you fluked it, or missing a good load because you pulled a shot. I am.realistic about my shooting ability. The bigger your data range, the more accurate and truthful your information and choices will be.

Shooting one shot sub moa, when testing, is meaningless. 'Averaging' sub moa is what matters.

It's why all data collection is more accurate when more data is collected. It's also why mean averages are derived by discarding the highest and lowest results , removing anomalies. (Pulled shots, wind gusts, over/under charged )

[Stix]

Hi folks...
etc.

I have been around for a long time and see that in reality and in essence very little has changed.
Your post kind of reminds me of the many tear stained letters sent to 'Uncle Nick' over the years asking for his secret load that would transform an average 'RemChester' into a super accurate tack driver.
The first thing to understand is that no special load recipe will overcome issues emanating from the various parts of the shooting system if any part of that system in fact has issues.
The reality is that if you load safe and consistent (eg. negligible bullet runout for one and the list goes on) ammunition then you should enjoy as good accuracy as your shooting system is capable of producing.
The best practical accuracy will come if you are prepared to shoot a sufficient sample size at a long enough range to obtain a true group center.
Many shooters are deluded by advertising jibber or a belief in magic or a thought process that goes something like this.
Formula 1 cars put nitrogen in their tyres so if I put nitrogen in the tyres on my 1995 corolla then it will go like a formula 1 car.
Cynicism is my reward for being around a long time and having gone down many of the dead ends others these days recommend.

Hi Straightshooter,
Firstly, i did lol at your cynicism...& a good reward it must be...!
2ndly, im not a dreamer, & thus im not asking for (i didnt ask for) a magic oil to wipe my barrel with that will give me .11" @600 yds...or a special load recipe...
I shot the last 1000 rounds out of the barrel on my other 22-250 trying to find its best...i discovered shooting at 400yds improved my skill tenfold, i could get 1.2" groups with .25" elevation @400 yds in 5mph wind, but i also discovered unexplained flyers that push a group out to moa or biggrr-so i bought a chrono...i then in turn wasted the rest of the barrel trying to find out why they were occuring.
I went about asking self confessed expert after self confessed expert who by their own admissions could shoot the eye of a rabbit @500yds for advice, only to have them hint to me ill never be able to shoot as good as them & if im shooting .5moa @100 what more do i want...funny that when out in the field with these guys they would miss bunnies at 60yds while i popped foxes between the eyes at 200+...

This is a hobby for me & i just want to be the best i can be...no magic...
In the past ive wasted kilos of powder chasing the best while going backwards...
My club is open once a month...it takes me 3 trips (thats 3 months) to get a load, then i can test it at 400yds up the farm before i have real fun in the field.
All im asking is for your (& everyone elses) advice on how & if i could possibly achieve this in a more efficient manner...efficient in BOTH time & powder.
So far you have suggested safe consistant loads with little/no bullet runout, so ill look at getting a conc gauge, but sounds to me like you are one of the guys that could give me more tips/steps on how i might achieve a good load more efficiently...?!?.

[Supaduke]

I guess what I was trying to say is, efficiency is gained from reliable and repeatable testing. The information you gather needs to be accurate and truthful so it can be relied on. This allows you to make informed decisions and not waste time just trying random things hoping to stumble on the perfect combo.

You should be able to say "when I do this , this is what happens and it happens every time."

[Stix]

By the way straightshooter, im not being hostile at all...
& maybe on reflection i am wanting a kind of magic oil...in the form of low powder consumption in the way chonos has said he goes about it. ..
I just want a quicker way to get a load worthy of testing at ranges beyond 200...if its achievable for me...

[Stix]

Thanks Supa...i get what your saying...
& a big appreciative thanks to ALL for input so far ...
Ive been keeping detailed records of late on another rifle which has helped immensely, but i did do it with a chrono & it still takes at least 3 range trips before confirmatìon...

Im not sure i have the confidence to go about it the way Chronos has detailed...after just 20 odd rounds testing not sure id be confident on a fox under spotlight beyond 150m...not saying its wrong...just a lack of confidence on my part.

[Stix]

What about peoples take on initial shooting with handloads or factory...

Start with factory loads to establish if its 'a shooter'.
Or start with the lap brass i have for it up front...
(Factory fired brass of various brands is no good to me...it will eventually be fed with lap).

??...

[Member-Deleted]

Stix i'm just an old fella I have 2 22-250s and my son has 0ne ,mine are sako, mauser set with 22-250 barrel and my sons is a ruger
MY sako is 1-14 twist and the mauser is 1-12 Ackley my sons is 1-12 twist
Now you have been given a lot of info from knowledgeable people I can only tell you what worked for me
Now what I done was get 4 powders load 3 bullets with 55gr projectiles or what ever weight you intend to use ,Shoot all bullets into separate targets
Take the best group and that powder may be the best for that rifle ( by the way load min charge in adi book for that projectile )
Then play with the loading I went up in .5gr increments until I either hit max or the group was getting near to what I wanted then till the group started
to open up then go back to the closest group and move either side of it in 1-2gr increments
If you can't get what you want with 55gr try heavier or lighter depending on your twist rate
I found Benchmark 2 best for both the 1-14 and 1-12 twists both 24 inch barrels and the Ackley ar2209 with 26 inch barrel
All three shoot .3-.6 the Ackley is the .6 with 60gr
The sako uses 31.6gr b/m2 and the ruger 34.2 b/m2 and the Ackley 38.4 ar2209
Mate I also found that the 24'' barrels of ours liked flat base projectiles rather than boattail where as the 26'' and slower powder liked the boattail
So mate the quickest way for me was 4 powders get the best group and work from there
Good luck

[Member-Deleted]

A correction in my last post with the 3 bullets and 4 powders it is
4 POWDERS load 3 bullets of each powder making 12 bullets then fire 3 of each powder into separate targets

[Chronos]

The OP asked for the most efficient route and I posted the method I've found after working on loads for nearly 30 rifles.

This is the exact method I use with my most recent riflel, a Kimber Montana in 7WSM. Half a day at the range loading as I go and this was the end result at 200 m in gusty conditions shot off a backpack



This was just before my first hunt at 50m just to check zero and make final adjustment



This was the result of the first shot fired in the field. 120 m shot offhand (standing)



This was a rifle I was told by its previous owner "is not a sub Moa gun" yet in under 30 rounds I had a load I was happy to hunt with. Go about it as you will and shoot 10 shot groups if it helps your confidence but this is my most efficient method

Chronos

[Member-Deleted]

Well I rest my case I have 2 22-250s that tear a raggered hole with 6 bullets @ 100yds off a rest
I have owned quiet a few 22-250s over the past 40yrs all shot around .3-.5 with the final load for accuracy all have been their own rifles with their different
little traits some shot best with hot loads some with minimum like my sako of today but none shot 1.2'' @ 400yds with 55gr projectiles with a 5mph breeze
blowing no matter what elevation
All I can say is along the lines of sungazer and say if you are getting those figures you already know how to get an accurate load and should be competitive
shooting you are wasting a natural talent

Cheers

[Gwion]

3 months is longer than i could stay sane while load developing; notwithstanding your results!

I am lucky enough to be able to load, shoot, load, shoot, load shoot all in one day. I notice that Chronos also shoots and loads as he goes where possible.

Not saying my process is perfect or most efficient but for my rifles and level of shooting skill, being able to develop a 0.5moa load in one day with less than 50 rounds expended i find pretty efficient. Keep it simple, i say.

I developed this system based on the theory that:
1/ A good group is primarily based on a well built rifle
2/ A good load is contingent on consistency and accuracy in loading practice with fine attention to detail
3/ Seating depth is king so start at the longest possible seating for your rifle or mag and then you only have to experiment in one direction to refine your load with no guess work as to if a shorter or longer jump is required.
4/ Remove as many variables as possible so pick a nice still day for all testing and development.
5/ Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance: research your cartridge/bullet weight/best powder before you start and prep your brass to what ever your standards are from the start.

As for using factory loads first: if you have the gear to reload, i don't see the point of using factory loads unless it is the only way you can source brass.