Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Sep 2017, 7:14 pm

"As for using factory loads first: if you have the gear to reload, i don't see the point of using factory loads unless it is the only way you can source brass."

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 7:25 pm

sungazer wrote:Stix all I can say is if your getting 1.2" horizontal spread and 0.25" vertical spread at 400yrds. You should be shooting competition, That would equate to possibles every time in fact with 10 count x hits.


Nice to hear...but not reality due to the flyers that if added in as i said would push a group out to moa+, & i got there literally 4-6 weeks before the barrel was gone.......but it took me 300 rounds to find that load, & it still had 90+fps es.....& thats what i want to avoid with this new rifle...

I did try f-class first time a while ago, i shot the host clubs rifle & shot 47/3 & 50/4 first time....

However i was being coached for wind...& ammo loaded by them on their rifle...

None of that helps me burning less powder & time to find the load...im trying to learn...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 7:37 pm

[quote="grandadbushy"]Stix i'm just an old fella... ... ...

Thanks for your input...!!

Like some of the jokes too...!!!

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 8:07 pm

Chronos wrote:The OP asked for the most efficient route and I posted the method I've found... ... ...
Go about it as you will and shoot 10 shot groups if it helps your confidence but this is my most efficient method

Chronos


Thanks Chronos...i appreciate your input...& admire your experience & confidence...

I wont be shooting 10 shot groups though...ive obviously been there & done that...hence why im here asking you all how you all go about it...

I dont really have the option of taking my gear to the range unless im willing to put up with everyone wanting to play with it...
Earlier in the year some clown went ruffling through my ammo box which was layed out with various charges for a load test & knocked my trigger arm doing so while i was trying to shoot a group...god knows what might happen if i took my press etc there...sheesh...could get ugly...!

120 m shot off the shoulder...nice going...!!
The last cat i saw out bush took off with one of my bloody rabbits i just shot...it looked like the one in your pic...!

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2017, 8:08 pm

Stix, in regard to your comment about "more experienced shooters" hinting that you'll never shoot as well as them, unfortunately one does come across this attitude.

There is a regular news letter by one Geoff Ayling and he covers this very subject. Traditionally, rifle clubs were set up to develop and pass on marksmanship to newer generations for 'defence of the realm'. Now days basic marksmanship is not taught and people are left to wing it for themselves to a greater extent. Of course, there are exceptions in some clubs and from some members/instructors but don't take it badly if you find it usual for people to want to keep their 'secrets' for their own glory.

Also, as you suggest, there is a big difference between being able to shoot a tight group at the range and being able to put that first round were it counts in the field.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 8:16 pm

[quote="Gwion"]3 months is longer than i could stay sane while load developing; notwithstanding your results!

I am lucky enough to be able to load, shoot, load, shoot, load shoot all in one day. I notice that Chronos also shoots and loads as he goes where possible.

Not saying my process is perfect or most efficient but for my rifles and level of shooting skill, being able to develop a 0.5moa load in one day with less than 50 rounds expended i find pretty efficient.

Yep...3 months...sanity...clearly a reason im here asking...

.5 moa in one day is efficient as far as im concerned...also like the methodology...

As for being sble too load as i shoot--see my note in above post with quote to Chronos...

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2017, 8:33 pm

If you have access to a paddock and can set up a temp reloading bench on the back of a ute then you may be able to cut down that 3 months by quite a bit.

:unknown:
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Sep 2017, 8:44 pm

By the way Stix all the 22-250s I have owned about 6-8 all , and I say all liked to be very close to the lands, move them away and they opened from
bug holes to maybe on some to .7 or in some cases a little wider
Once I got my best powder load with 55gr projectiles I would then play with diff weight projectiles but at all times having them close to the lands
If your twist is 1-14 to 1-12 I find pretty much 55grs are perfect for those twist rates not saying there is no other way of doing it but just trying to simplify
things
If I remember most all my rifles took about 18 to 24 rounds to perfect the accuracy once I had the best powder for that rifle but the big trick is
keep the projectiles close as possible without touching the lands and try to keep it exactly the same each time you load
There will be for and against this way of doing it but its simple and it works I have proven it to me and that is what matters in the end
Also it has been cheap for me as far as projectiles and powder to end up with bug holes @ 100yds more than I need to do my job
I do test my rifles out fairly wide the widest I've shot a wild dog is 485yds heart shot I don't normally shoot them that far out but I had been chasing him a
long time and he had caused far more damage to stock than any other dog I have chased probably took the shot from shear frustration something I
have never done before I'm not proud of it but it all turned out good

Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 14 Sep 2017, 7:13 pm

Thanks for all the info so far...
Ill see how i go over the next few weeks & hopefully put some good results up here...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 12:11 am

Hi folks,
Forgive me for asking 2 potentially silly questions re seating depth...
On the weekend i mounted the scope & did some fiddling...
I got an approx measurement to the lands, & discovered i can reach the lands comfortably running thru the mag (i feel a little silly not having established this earlier).

Its been mentioned by Chronos & backed by other(s) that seating buĺlets in the lands is more suited for VLD target proj's in custom chambers...

So im seeking advice on 2 quick questions...

1) given this is a production chambered hunting/varmint rifle & will be shooting varmint type proj's & i can reach the lands running thru the mag, how far off the lands should i start load testing from (pending suitable proj length)...?

2) given seating further out is only subject to projectile length in this instance, is there an "ideal" amount of the proj that should be seated in the neck (ie calibre depth)...?

If its of interest, i did the measurement with a Sie .22 cal 55gn Game King (boat tail), touching the lands there is .145"/(3.68mm) +/- .002" of proj seated in case trimmed to spec.
I seated a few dummy rounds & cannot visually see any tip wobble when case is rolled-(i dont have a concentricity gauge)

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 18 Sep 2017, 1:49 am

Stix some rifles like different length bullets so what I do is get the best loads with the closest groups that you like with a standard length
requirement for the given calibre then start increasing the length towards the lands
See if the grouping changes in or out but be careful by putting the projectile into the lands can cause a spike in chamber pressure
How I got my length to lands was colour the projectile with black felt pen after putting in an empty case leave it fairly long then fit it into the chamber
and slowly close the bolt until it tightens up don't force it in too tight otherwise it will pull the projectile out when you remove the shell
If its too long it will mark the projectile so keep moving the projectile in testing and remarking every time you move the projectile in until you can close the bolt
and it doesn't leave a mark on the black marker on the projectile then I leave mine at that
If the group tightens up then your rifle likes them close to the lands but if its still not tight enough you can then start playing with powder again just to try for a
tighter group
With one of my rifles I found it shot very good with near max load but when I moved the projectile out close to the lands it shot a hole bug with min load a difference
of about 4gr less powder
So mate get your best load and give it the old heave ho and see how you go
Now remember this is how I got my rifles going probably rough in some eyes but it worked and was quiet simple for a dumb old bastard like me
And they are all tack drivers thankfully if it was left to my ability wouldn't be much worthwile

As far as silly questions never heard of such a thing

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 10:04 am

Personally I would start my development on the lands then once I have a tight grouping load, test some at 10, 20 & 30 thou off the lands. I have done this with hunting bullets and target (amax) with good results.
A hunting round it is important to feed smoothly and not get jammed, as the potential is there for the jammed bullet (jammed in rifling) to be pulled when extracting an unfired round.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 18 Sep 2017, 10:20 am

Yeah Gwion same disease different doctor wouldn't be nothing worse than sitting on a mountain with an empty shell in one hand
and a projectile stuck in the barrel sorta buggers the shooting trip if you can't remove it there
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Sep 2017, 11:15 am

It is usual to have the bullet seated in the neck according to calibre. i.e. 0.22" for 223 pills, 0.300 for 30 calibre rifles but you can use a shallower depth as long as chambering and feeding from the magazine does not spoil the concentricity of the whole cartridge. Always check the feed of the finished product :)
FWIW, I have always used a cleaning rod to determine overall cartridge length with the bullet seated against the lands.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 18 Sep 2017, 11:49 am

All good info all works , good debate now Stix all you have to decide is which one works for you or which one you are going to use ,
over time you will probably try them all
Some in there I will even try myself next time I need to

Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 12:40 pm

Thanks for the different methods of how to attain a distance to lands guys..!

I have confirmed i CAN feed from the mag--infact i loaded dummy's as far as .030" INTO lands & could still fit a baboon in the mag with the cartridge--plenty of room for trouble free feeding (minus the baboon).
So im more interested to hear peoples opinions on whether to begin load testing on, in or off the lands--& by how far either way...?

Thanks Gwion...!...just to confirm, you would start AT the lands, or IN... (ie; +.010/.020...?)

Thanks Wm.traynor on answering concentricity point...!

Thanks again all...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 12:52 pm

AT or ON the lands, not IN the rifling (jammed). Mind you, with a hunting load i would just be on the lands to get my basic charge, or even start 5 thou off the lands. If you are ON the lands with a hunting load and your seating tolerance is, say, 5thou, then some may end up jammed. The reason i start as close as possible to the lands is so i only have to test in one direction, ie: AWAY form the lands. If i start at, say, 40thou off the lands (not uncommon), then i have to guess which way to start my testing when adjusting seating depth or load up a bunch in either direction, which can be a waste of components.

Again, this is just my way of doing it.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by marksman » 18 Sep 2017, 2:57 pm

sungazer wrote:I tried the black texta and found it didnt really leave a mark. I found that putting the bullet in long and not being able to close the bolt a good indication your there and then working the bullet back into the case until no issue. Then try other methods to refine from there. Have a cleaning rod handy if you get a stuck projectile. Other ways are to have a loosely fitting bullet that will push back as the bolt closes.


not that its the way I would try to find my oal but shine the bullet with steel wool and you will see the marks from the lands

the best way is to use a cleaning rod down the bore against a cocked bolt, tape on rod and mark at the muzzle with a fine marker
then remove bolt and put in a projectile in the chamber against the lands and repeat putting the cleaning rod down the bore against the tip of the bullet put some tape on and mark with a fine marker, now measure the marks you have made and you have your oal, make sure the cleaning rod fits the bore and the rod is a male end, I file the end of a brush flat to make a male end
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 3:46 pm

sungazer wrote:Thanks Marksman... ... ... ... I don't understand why you say a male end cleaning rod surely the female end one would work just as well having a square flat end?


Im not answering for Marksman, but i think maybe thats the point--a female rod is not flat at the end, so you could get false readings if the tip of proj enters the internal thread on some occasions, & not on others...a male ended rod has a wider even surface to touch the proj, especially if its not sitting concentric....less room for error.
Just my thoughts, im sure Marksman can clarify.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 4:14 pm

Gwion wrote:AT or ON the lands, not IN the rifling (jammed). Mind you, with a hunting load i would just be on the lands to get my basic charge, or even start 5 thou off the lands. If you are ON the lands with a hunting load and your seating tolerance is, say, 5thou, then some may end up jammed... ... ...


When did you use my 22-250 seating die Gwion...?...(hehe)
The reason i asked for confirmation of ON or IN is because that particular seating die of mine has about .005" tolerance over a batch of say 30...so if i seated to +.010 i thought it may avoid the inconsistancy by ensuring all are fired from same point...?
Or is the difference of ON the lands to 5 thou off negligible for load testing a hunting rifle...?
Im just theorising for understanings sake..i dont mean to ask the same question a different way. :D
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Sep 2017, 7:23 pm

The Cleaning Rod Method It's all in the details ;)
I am one of Those People who use a P-H rod ;) Squaring the end of a jag is easy :) To centre the end/tip of the jag, use a loose patch which slides easily down the bore after the jag is screwed Tightly on to the rod. No slack anywhere. You get accurate readings; pretty much ;)
FWIW, I use a bulldog clip on the rod to locate the position of the muzzle, when the jag's tip is hard against the bolt face. Measure between muzzle and clip when the bullet is installed against the rifling. I hold the pill in place with a long piece of 1/4" dowel.

Once you get in to the swing of it, it's easy........................really ;)
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Sep 2017, 7:57 pm

This is from a previous post I put up about two years ago.

I used a cleaning rod initially but was never convinced it was very accurate. I found these instructions a while back & found they work well.

I do 5 or 6 and come up with an average but have difficulty seeing the marks left on the projectile. A candle will leave soot on the projectile & may be better than a marker.

There are several ways to measure the seating depth of your rifle. The most accurate way is through the use of a specialized seating depth tool. Another way to measure seating depth only requires a fired case, a bullet, a marker, and a set of calipers. The ogive or curved part of the bullet is the part that first
makes contact with the lands, so measuring with a bullet and fired case will only give you a measurement that is useful for bullets of the same shape.

Different bullets and bullets of different weights will have different ogive shapes, so keep this in mind when measuring and using your seating depth. If you change bullets, you will need to re-measure your seating depth with the new bullet.

Starting with a fired case, insert a bullet into the neck with your fingers. The bullet should freely slide into the case with little to no resistance. Next, lightly press the neck of the case against a hard surface to slightly dent the case mouth enough that it will grasp the bullet. Now, color the entire shank of the
bullet with a black felt-tip marker. Insert the base of the bullet into the case just enough that it is held by neck tension. Now, carefully insert the round into the camber of your rifle and close the bolt, but do not pull the trigger. As you close the bolt, the bullet will contact the lands and be pushed back into the case.

Open the bolt and carefully withdraw the case and bullet. The bullet may still be in the case, (if it is at this point I measure the overall length with a vernier caliper & repeat a few times) or it may be stuck in the barrel. If it is still in the barrel, remove it by either tapping the butt of the rifle against the bench or the ground, or push the bullet gently out with a cleaning rod. The ink on the bullet will be scraped off to the point at which the bullet wasn’t pushed into the case any further. Re-insert the bullet in the case up to the point where the ink was scraped off and measure the cartridge overall length with your calipers. This is your rifle’s seating depth with that particular bullet. Repeat the procedure several times to get a more accurate average. Now, when you want to load bullets a certain distance off of the lands, simply subtract the desired amount of “jump” from the seating depth to get the desired overall length. For example: Rifle’s

Seating depth = 3.430 Desired “jump” to lands= .015 Load cartridges to an OAL of 3.415
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by marksman » 18 Sep 2017, 9:26 pm

just to take it a bit further in regards to oal and seating depth, how ever you find your oal, very good suggestions in this post
if you have a magazine obviously your oal will suit the mag, if you don't have to worry about mag length I either jam or jump my projectiles as if you just touch the lands you are going to play the chase the lands game,
I got this advise from Peter Van Muirs gunsmith and top bench rest shooter, he makes things sound so basic
but your rifle will tell you honestly what it wants by consistent group size at the ranges you want to shoot
and I admit that I do play the chase the lands game with a couple of rifles, I loose sleep over this :lol:
and remember touching or jamming into the lands puts your pressure up,
by quickload a jump will give a start pressure of around 3626 psi but into the lands is 7200 psi
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 10:32 pm

[quote="marksman"... ... ... if you don't have to worry about mag length I either jam or jump my projectiles as if you just touch the lands you are going to play the chase the lands game,
... ... ... ...
and I admit that I do play the chase the lands game with a couple of rifles, I loose sleep over this :lol:
... ... ... ...
by quickload a jump will give a start pressure of around 3626 psi but into the lands is 7200 psi[/quote]

Hey Marksman, can i ask you a couple of questions
1)-what is the "chase the lands game"-?
as i read what you have stated, you are not chasing the lands if you jump or jam, but you ARE chasing if just touching...? (Is it to do with erosion over time...?)

2)-what determines whether you yourself jump or jam...?

3)-if you jump, what is your starting point...? (Ie; close-.010, or further...?)

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by marksman » 19 Sep 2017, 8:16 am

If you get your best precision from just touching the lands when the throat erodes you will keep needing to adjust your seating depth, playing the game
you will need to be very consistent with your oal as if there is a difference you may touch 7200 psi then not touch 3626 psi = flyers
so what was said to me was a jump of 20 thou or a jam of 20 thou and you wont be playing the game
2)- I will usually jump for testing unless my rifle wont do as well as I would like then try a seating depth test from jam to a big jump to see what it likes
sometimes it is just a touch on the lands but sometimes it wont like anything, time for a big change
3)- I usually try a jump of 10 thou
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 19 Sep 2017, 1:26 pm

Thanks Marksman...!
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 8:05 am

To clarify, I only start my load development on the lands. Once a basic charge has been established, I then test looking for best results with a jump. As I have previously stated, I don't jam my bullets so starting on the lands gives me only one direction to experiment in: that is away from the lands.

Many target shooters insist that best accuracy is attained from a 20thou jam, others insist that a 50thou jump allows for variations in seating because that far out a 5thou tolerance has little effect whereas a smaller jump will be more sensitive to seating tolerance.
Hell, this is all so subjective that there are even those that insist that touching the lands is THE most precise method (as in Houston Warehouse Accuracy Project) but these guys seat bullets "long and loose" so that each round adjusts itself onto the lands (a very basic explanation); this is most certainly not suited to hunting rounds but I have had a small experiment with it and my initial results support the theory.

What ever the case, you are always going to "chase the lands" to some extent unless you are in the "new barrel once a season" brigade (or recut chamber regularly).

Just to get even more confusing, there is evidence that too great a jump can cause pressure spikes...... :wtf: :crazy:
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by marksman » 20 Sep 2017, 9:12 pm

its not really to great a jump that causes pressure spikes its seating your bullet deep, I see this when playing with quickload
as you seat the bullet deeper the internal volume gets smaller and pressure rise's
also I don't think there is anything wrong with an experienced reloader starting load development touching the lands or jammed if that is what they want to do and know what to look for in regards to pressure
and I totally agree "this is all so subjective"
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 20 Sep 2017, 11:42 pm

Thats great info guys...i really appreciate hearing your views & approach...!!!

As for being subjective...definately...!!!

If its of intetest to you guys (no doubt you've heard it), a BR shooter & hunter i know of (& a well respected one at that) says that with a new rifle, you are best to firefom new brass with a 20-30 thou jam...
The theory being that in his experience...
*there is little load data to be gained until the barrel has settled down (lets say hypothetically its 40 rounds).
*jamming 20-30 thou ensures the case is fully supported by the bolt---this forms the brass at the same time as stretching the cases at the front of the case, rather than at the rear (the web where it will fail if continually streched), thus, indirectly gaining brass life while settling down the barrel.

The subsequent brass to be formed will still be accurate enough to hunt with, (obviously being aware that once a round is loaded the best way to remove it is to fire it...! Not something to do on your average spotlighting jaunt, but easier with a varmint/target o/fit)

From there quick load tests with formed brass seated off the lands will give accurate & rapid load results...

After a lifetimes experience i will probably have developed a preference, but may still be somewhat unsure of the ultimate...
I guess its the drive to do our best that drives the curiosity...

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Chronos » 21 Sep 2017, 7:02 pm

sungazer wrote:It is often needed to jam the bullets as the case shoulder may not touch the chamber. when the firing pin hits the case moves forward taking some of the energy from the firing pin and a misfire occurs. Not such a problem in factory rifles as they usually have much stronger firing pins but can happen. I know from experience it was a s**t of a lesson to learn. It only takes about 4 thou in some rifles.


Factory rifles have much stronger firing pins?

Stronger than what?

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