Batching .22LR by weight.

[bladeracer]

I thought I'd try an experiment and maybe learn something
I weighed 1000rds of CCI Std Vel ammo and batched them in 0.1gn increments.

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I weighed a box of Tenex to get an idea of their consistency - 95% of them fall within 0.1gn, with the anomalies spreading out to 0.18gn. About 70% fall within 0.06gn - 51.00gn up to 51.06gn - quiet astonishing I think for an amalgam of five different components.

I shot this in the field, laying in the grass on the bipod with no rear bag at 52m (I had to find a spot with a decent view through the grass). While I pulled very few shots (and fired one at the wrong target) it's a real possibility that at least some bullets traveled through the heads of grass, which may have affected them. There was a breeze, which is why I shot them at 50m rather than 100m, but it wasn't strong and was fairly steady, coming into my face from roughly eleven o'clock.

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I shot thirteen five-round groups to get my eye in first and zero the scope. These gave me a range from 21mm to 46mm and an average group size of 31.5mm. I shot another ten 5rd groups afterwards to confirm the rifle and myself were shooting the same as before - 21.5mm to 55.5mm and an average of 36mm.

Between these I shot 24rds in five groups (the largest batch was 274rds at 51.0gn so I used the odd 24 for this initial test). These shot very poorly I thought, very odd. Groups ranged from 51.5mm (for the 4rd group) to 66.5mm. Although I specifically noted that the very wide flier on the 66.5mm group was definitely not pulled by me, it was the first shot that made me wonder if I was hitting the grass. Without that shot, this was the best group at 28.5mm for the other four shots. The average was 57.4mm, and even dropping the "flier" they still averaged 50mm groups. Generally, these bullets were scattering very badly. Very odd as the following groups shot from a random box tightened up pretty significantly. It may be that cartridges right on 51.0gn may be the ones that become fliers when shot randomly, but it seems unlikely when more than a quarter of them make this weight.

Although the rifle was certainly able to shoot under 2MoA groups at 50m (12 groups were sub-2MoA) - both before and after shooting the 24 test rounds - I do note that, after this test, the bore has 2135rds down it since I cleaned it last. It is probably well due for a scrub. I'll give it a clean and try this again after I batch them by rim thickness as well. My intention was to batch 1000rds of CCI SV by weight and rim thickness, but I wanted to get an indication of the effect of just weight batching as well. I hope I can also have a new chronograph in time so I can record the velocity ranges as well.

[Apollo]

Interesting. I've only ever batched by Rim Thickness then a few tests of weight in those batches, like a few others who shoot target, gave up on weight batching.

Initial tests were with CCI Standard Velocity and realised they were pretty standard and not a huge improvement in accuracy. However, something like Lapua Centre-X or Eley Match were a whole different story. Rim thickness batching virtually eliminated all flyers and stuck with the Lapua being half the price and just as accurate in my rifle.

I only clean if I change ammo manufacturer, just a dry patch to push the rubbish out normally.

The odd sorted ammo gets used to re-foul a barrel and or practise on a few rabbits.

[bladeracer]

Interesting. I've only ever batched by Rim Thickness then a few tests of weight in those batches, like a few others who shoot target, gave up on weight batching.

Initial tests were with CCI Standard Velocity and realised they were pretty standard and not a huge improvement in accuracy. However, something like Lapua Centre-X or Eley Match were a whole different story. Rim thickness batching virtually eliminated all flyers and stuck with the Lapua being half the price and just as accurate in my rifle.

I only clean if I change ammo manufacturer, just a dry patch to push the rubbish out normally.

The odd sorted ammo gets used to re-foul a barrel and or practise on a few rabbits.

Yes, I had read others that had found weight batching achieves nothing but I had to try it for myself
Rim batching Remington Cyclones gave impressive improvements, but I chose the lowest quality ammo for that reason - to make any improvement really obvious. I wasn't sure I'd get such results with higher-quality ammo, but I want to find out.
What leaves me dumbfounded is how it's possible to shoot five consecutive very poor groups in the middle of 24 pretty reasonable groups, when those five were handpicked.

How many rounds do you put through the bore without cleaning?
I found with the Ruger Target that groups improved after cleaning at 1400rds so it probably wants cleaning around 1000rds. The Compact may need a similar regime , but the only way to be sure is to work backwards.

[No1Mk3]

G'day bladeracer,
You are aware, of course, that 22RF contains Evil? That it was designed by the Devil to drive men bats?

[bladeracer]

G'day bladeracer,
You are aware, of course, that 22RF contains Evil? That it was designed by the Devil to drive men bats?

Of course, it all makes sense now!

[Apollo]

Yes, I had read others that had found weight batching achieves nothing but I had to try it for myself
Rim batching Remington Cyclones gave impressive improvements, but I chose the lowest quality ammo for that reason - to make any improvement really obvious. I wasn't sure I'd get such results with higher-quality ammo, but I want to find out.
What leaves me dumbfounded is how it's possible to shoot five consecutive very poor groups in the middle of 24 pretty reasonable groups, when those five were handpicked.

How many rounds do you put through the bore without cleaning?
I found with the Ruger Target that groups improved after cleaning at 1400rds so it probably wants cleaning around 1000rds. The Compact may need a similar regime , but the only way to be sure is to work backwards.

I didn't really go to much trouble with the low quality ammo (CCI Standard) that I Rim Sized other than to see there was an improvement but nothing special in groups was achieved, still had flyers. Anything could be the cause there from the powder to bullets used.

Things improved quite a bit with the likes of the Lapua & Eley ammo then evey now and again there was one that would spoil that perfect one hole group at 50m. Rim Sorting fixed that almost completely. My aim here was to get the best most consistent ammo for a 200 Yard State Fly Competition.

I am only using an old 1965 Brno Model 2, I had a loan of a Target Rifle to test and it was great at 50m but the Brno out shone it at 200 yards.

I was very happy with my results at the comp shoot competing against 50 custom target rifles with a "rabbit gun" and 4/5 details I held 6th place. My mistake picking up the wrong box of sorted ammo and not resetting aim I dropped 6 places on the last detail. Was a great day and a pleasure to shoot all day without needing Ear Protection with all the sub velocity ammo being used.

Cleaning, well as I said... if I change from one brand to another (different wax coating) then use a few dozen to settle back before checking accuracy. I wouldn't shoot more than a couple of hundred rounds a year in the Brno. It hasn't been cleaned for years and no intention of doing so. None of my firearms go out in wet weather unless of an emergency on the farm here.

[bladeracer]

I didn't really go to much trouble with the low quality ammo (CCI Standard) that I Rim Sized other than to see there was an improvement but nothing special in groups was achieved, still had flyers. Anything could be the cause there from the powder to bullets used.

Things improved quite a bit with the likes of the Lapua & Eley ammo then every now and again there was one that would spoil that perfect one hole group at 50m. Rim Sorting fixed that almost completely. My aim here was to get the best most consistent ammo for a 200 Yard State Fly Competition.

When I tried rim batching Eley Tenex there was no point, 100% of them were all 38-thou thick. Did you batch them down to 0.0001"?
What sort of accuracy do you aim for before taking on the 200yd Fly?

[Gwion]

Think i'll have to try doing both sort by weight and rim... then run them through the 'Waltz' die.

Try meassuring the calibre of your 22lr bullets. You will find tolerances can be all over the shop. The 'Waltz Accurising Die' i have swages all the bullets to a .224" standard. This gives consistent bore seal and helps with velocity consistency. Couple that with batching by rim and weight and you should be able to take cheap ammo and make it a LOT more consistent.

So far i have tried weight sorting and the die separately but not together. Both made improvements to Fed Champ in my rifle. When i have time I'll try all three and get the trigger of my rifle tuned and see what happens.

[Apollo]

Wow, they seem thin. My Eley Match are about 0.040", RWS 100 about 0.041" and Lapua Center-X about 0.044". I rim sort batch to 0.0005 which is the best my Mitutoyo Calipres will go down to.

I have not shot any RWS 100 as yet as they have only just been obtained for a test. I only had one box of Eley Match and Lapua Center-X when I conducted my first tests and the Lapua performed just as well for half the price. I then bought a couple of bricks and rim sorted the lot. I had 4 main batch lots and a couple of dozen strange ones.

My initial tests were done at 50 metres where both the Eley and Lapua would shoot a one hole 5 shot group, however there were a few times both put one shot outside that one hole group and that's what I got rid of by batching the Lapua. I was also testing a target rifle on load from my Gunshop Owner. A .22LR Brno 20 Cal Extruder which shot amazing at 50m but not so flash further out.

It's been awhile since I've done some rimfire testing but my aim is to be 1 MOA or better at 100 and as close to that as possible at 200. I'm lucky that I do all my testing at home and I can wait for perfect conditions to present themselves then go and set out the Wind Flags.

Currently waiting for some cool, no wind, no mirage days to test a new setup with a March Scope and 20 MOA Rail which I have not used before. There are a few 200 Yard Fly Shoots I might go to this year if I can also sort out new loads for my 500 Meter Fly Rifle. Even when it looks like no wind, it is eye opening to see what is happening with the wind flags moving around in different directions.

The Rimfire is great practice for reading conditions and judging the conditions for Centrefire at 500 Metres. The spanner goes into the works here at home as I have a few gullies to the 500m Target and can't get wind flags high enough to see conditions so it's a bit of a gamble watching the leaves and grass.

If I can keep groups at 200 Yards around 3.0" at home it's good enough for me to take on a comp shoot. So far I've been lucky and not been faced with a wild windy day which will happen so once I've sorted out the new setup I'll be having a bit of fun on a windy day.

[bladeracer]

Think i'll have to try doing both sort by weight and rim... then run them through the 'Waltz' die.

Try measuring the calibre of your 22lr bullets. You will find tolerances can be all over the shop. The 'Waltz Accurising Die' i have swages all the bullets to a .224" standard. This gives consistent bore seal and helps with velocity consistency. Couple that with batching by rim and weight and you should be able to take cheap ammo and make it a LOT more consistent.

So far i have tried weight sorting and the die separately but not together. Both made improvements to Fed Champ in my rifle. When i have time I'll try all three and get the trigger of my rifle tuned and see what happens.

I have read about bumping them all up to .224" but hadn't thought of trying that myself yet. I haven't heard of anybody getting these things recently though so I think he stopped making them? I might have to look at turning something up myself.

I've got lots and lots of bricks of stuff that doesn't shoot very well for me in any of my rifles, so I'm burning through it in offhand practice. CCI SV shoots very, very well in all my rifles so I buy it by the case. Eley shoots slightly better though - tighter and more consistent - and would be my first choice for competition, but if I can rim-batch CCI SV, and perhaps "accurise" them, they may well out-shoot even the Eley - for a quarter of the price plus a few hours effort.

[bladeracer]

Wow, they seem thin. My Eley Match are about 0.040", RWS 100 about 0.041" and Lapua Center-X about 0.044". I rim sort batch to 0.0005 which is the best my Mitutoyo Calipres will go down to.

I have not shot any RWS 100 as yet as they have only just been obtained for a test. I only had one box of Eley Match and Lapua Center-X when I conducted my first tests and the Lapua performed just as well for half the price. I then bought a couple of bricks and rim sorted the lot. I had 4 main batch lots and a couple of dozen strange ones.

My initial tests were done at 50 metres where both the Eley and Lapua would shoot a one hole 5 shot group, however there were a few times both put one shot outside that one hole group and that's what I got rid of by batching the Lapua. I was also testing a target rifle on load from my Gunshop Owner. A .22LR Brno 20 Cal Extruder which shot amazing at 50m but not so flash further out.

It's been awhile since I've done some rimfire testing but my aim is to be 1 MOA or better at 100 and as close to that as possible at 200. I'm lucky that I do all my testing at home and I can wait for perfect conditions to present themselves then go and set out the Wind Flags.

Currently waiting for some cool, no wind, no mirage days to test a new setup with a March Scope and 20 MOA Rail which I have not used before. There are a few 200 Yard Fly Shoots I might go to this year if I can also sort out new loads for my 500 Meter Fly Rifle. Even when it looks like no wind, it is eye opening to see what is happening with the wind flags moving around in different directions.

The Rimfire is great practice for reading conditions and judging the conditions for Centrefire at 500 Metres. The spanner goes into the works here at home as I have a few gullies to the 500m Target and can't get wind flags high enough to see conditions so it's a bit of a gamble watching the leaves and grass.

If I can keep groups at 200 Yards around 3.0" at home it's good enough for me to take on a comp shoot. So far I've been lucky and not been faced with a wild windy day which will happen so once I've sorted out the new setup I'll be having a bit of fun on a windy day.

I measured them using a .243 case so my absolute measurements may not match a different method. But all the Eley I've measured is the same .038" rim thickness. It's the thinnest rim of any ammo I've measured and does cause a lot of light strikes in my brother's Anschutz, making Eley unusable in that, at least until I can be bothered filing a hair off the striker shoulder. RWS100 shot very well for me, but no better than the Eley Edge.

I only batched to the thou, particularly since the Cyclones varied across an eight-thou range.

Yes, I thought consistent 100m 1MoA would be sufficient, but not easy to achieve with a hunting rifle. I do all my shooting at home as well, but we very rarely have still winds here, or even a steady breeze. It's invariably gusty and swirls around, so the best I can do is try to dump a whole group as quickly as possible.

I haven't done anywhere near enough 200m .22LR shooting but am doing more of it when the wind allows it. I can hold around 125mm with Eley Edge, closer to 150mm with the CCI. A couple weeks ago I put 20rds of CCI into 220mm off the bipod in some horror winds, which impressed the hell out of me. I do have a 20MoA rail but haven't tried it as yet.

I don't know if it's fact, but I've found mirage to be much worse the closer the target is to the ground, lifting it up a couple meters seems to help a great deal.

[Cooper]

Think i'll have to try doing both sort by weight and rim... then run them through the 'Waltz' die.

Try measuring the calibre of your 22lr bullets. You will find tolerances can be all over the shop. The 'Waltz Accurising Die' i have swages all the bullets to a .224" standard. This gives consistent bore seal and helps with velocity consistency. Couple that with batching by rim and weight and you should be able to take cheap ammo and make it a LOT more consistent.

So far i have tried weight sorting and the die separately but not together. Both made improvements to Fed Champ in my rifle. When i have time I'll try all three and get the trigger of my rifle tuned and see what happens.

I have read about bumping them all up to .224" but hadn't thought of trying that myself yet. I haven't heard of anybody getting these things recently though so I think he stopped making them? I might have to look at turning something up myself.

I've got lots and lots of bricks of stuff that doesn't shoot very well for me in any of my rifles, so I'm burning through it in offhand practice. CCI SV shoots very, very well in all my rifles so I buy it by the case. Eley shoots slightly better though - tighter and more consistent - and would be my first choice for competition, but if I can rim-batch CCI SV, and perhaps "accurise" them, they may well out-shoot even the Eley - for a quarter of the price plus a few hours effort.

I emailed Waltz last year 2017, about the middle of the year and he said he had a new batch of dies in the works. He said to email him back in a month or so. Which I did and he never responded. Figured email not really his thing or didn't want to ship to Australia. If you can reach him? I'm still keen on a set of his dies? Maybe we can do a combined buy?

Neal Waltz email.

WALTZ@SSSNET.COM

[bladeracer]

I have read about bumping them all up to .224" but hadn't thought of trying that myself yet. I haven't heard of anybody getting these things recently though so I think he stopped making them? I might have to look at turning something up myself.

I emailed Waltz last year 2017, about the middle of the year and he said he had a new batch of dies in the works. He said to email him back in a month or so. Which I did and he never responded. Figured email not really his thing or didn't want to ship to Australia. If you can reach him? I'm still keen on a set of his dies? Maybe we can do a combined buy?

Neal Waltz email.

WALTZ@SSSNET.COM

I read that he's eighty-years-old but I'll email him and see what happens.
I think it'd be pretty easy to turn one up on the lathe though. Just a tube .224" diameter, a ram and a shellholder.

[Apollo]

"bladeracer" I tried to measure a rim using a .243W Lapua Case and I got different results depending on where the round sat in the neck, too much slop unless I'm doing it wrong.

Somewhere on this Forum I posted a description and photo's of what I used some time ago. I know you were apart of that discussion but I can't find it today.

I use a .22 Hornet Case which I put in my Wilson Trimmer and squared the case head and neck to each other, a plus is that the neck is squared off to sit the rim onto. I mounted that in a 30 Cal Sinclair Comparator Insert which then is mounted to a Hornady Base attached to my calipres so it's a one handed operation.

Anyway, now you got me going on the .22LR I might just move my cattle out of the paddock and setup a 50 & 100 target. Bit hot today and a breeze but it might come good during the late afternoon. Good excuse to drag the Brno out of the Gunsafe. Might have to figure out where I have hidden my camera and see if I can remember how to use it again.

[bladeracer]

"bladeracer" I tried to measure a rim using a .243W Lapua Case and I got different results depending on where the round sat in the neck, too much slop unless I'm doing it wrong.

Somewhere on this Forum I posted a description and photo's of what I used some time ago. I know you were apart of that discussion but I can't find it today.

I use a .22 Hornet Case which I put in my Wilson Trimmer and squared the case head and neck to each other, a plus is that the neck is squared off to sit the rim onto. I mounted that in a 30 Cal Sinclair Comparator Insert which then is mounted to a Hornady Base attached to my calipres so it's a one handed operation.

Anyway, now you got me going on the .22LR I might just move my cattle out of the paddock and setup a 50 & 100 target. Bit hot today and a breeze but it might come good during the late afternoon. Good excuse to drag the Brno out of the Gunsafe. Might have to figure out where I have hidden my camera and see if I can remember how to use it again.

Yep, I used neck sized and trimmed brass so it was pretty consistent I think. I'm awaiting the Sinclair tool now.
I just went out and shot a box of Eley Edge at 202m
The first group (south of my fingers in the second pic) dropped five, then the wind drifted the next four off the side of the steel, but the tenth round came back. The other four groups I held along the right edge of the steel beam. The one group I put on paper is 110mm for 10rds. I didn't have a board to put behind and forgot that the shrapnel would destroy the paper
The box is 72mm long.

I just held each range hash on the top right corner of the steel for each group. The topmost 160mm group was held on the top of the reticle post (15.4MoA or 900mm) - roughly 1100mm drop from a 100m zero.

[Apollo]

Well, I didn't get out as expected. Bit of repair work took priority. But finally got around to it today however not the best of conditions with heat, lots of mirage even at 50 metres and unfortunately with a storm brewing a bit of wind.

Decided last night to give the old Brno Model 2 a thorough clean, maybe I should have waited as I know it doesn't shoot that great from a clean bore but after a dozen rounds it started to look reasonable except for the not so great conditions.

So, here we go... Two 5 Shot Groups. On the left not so bad but mirage was the problem with the aiming point wandering around. Then on the right a tad worse when the wind came up and blew a couple to the right.

Overall, this is why I batch .22LR Ammo by Rim Size and why I like this Brno Model 2. This batch lot was just a fresh packet and a quick batch not the typical 1,000 rounds I should have done.

Was going to move to 100m then 200yards but the wind is even worse with a thunderstorm about to happen very soon so I packed up and will continue another day.

[bladeracer]

Well, I didn't get out as expected. Bit of repair work took priority. But finally got around to it today however not the best of conditions with heat, lots of mirage even at 50 metres and unfortunately with a storm brewing a bit of wind.

Decided last night to give the old Brno Model 2 a thorough clean, maybe I should have waited as I know it doesn't shoot that great from a clean bore but after a dozen rounds it started to look reasonable except for the not so great conditions.

So, here we go... Two 5 Shot Groups. On the left not so bad but mirage was the problem with the aiming point wandering around. Then on the right a tad worse when the wind came up and blew a couple to the right.

Overall, this is why I batch .22LR Ammo by Rim Size and why I like this Brno Model 2. This batch lot was just a fresh packet and a quick batch not the typical 1,000 rounds I should have done.

Was going to move to 100m then 200yards but the wind is even worse with a thunderstorm about to happen very soon so I packed up and will continue another day.

Very nice shooting indeed, the Brno Model 2 is a gorgeous rifle

[Bills Shed]

I might be putting myself in the line of fire here but I can tell you that weight is a very poor indicator of anything when it come to rim fire. I am no target shooter but I make a lot of projectiles out of rim fire cases and have weighed and measured many pieces of rim fire brass that have been derimmed and cleaned to death. I can honestly say that the high end of the market is more consistent but weights can still vary greatly and that is just weighing the brass. Win and federal can vary over a grain in weight while eley black is very consistent but varies lot to lot. Also the length of cases varies as well. RF brass is just pinch trimmed.
As to rim thickness, if it works for you go for it, but I believe a lot of it is in the mind and we do better because we believe it is better.
Rimfires do shoot better with some ammo than others but I would not get too bogged down with the sorting process.

Bill

[bladeracer]

I might be putting myself in the line of fire here but I can tell you that weight is a very poor indicator of anything when it come to rim fire. I am no target shooter but I make a lot of projectiles out of rim fire cases and have weighed and measured many pieces of rim fire brass that have been derimmed and cleaned to death. I can honestly say that the high end of the market is more consistent but weights can still vary greatly and that is just weighing the brass. Win and federal can vary over a grain in weight while eley black is very consistent but varies lot to lot. Also the length of cases varies as well. RF brass is just pinch trimmed.
As to rim thickness, if it works for you go for it, but I believe a lot of it is in the mind and we do better because we believe it is better.
Rimfires do shoot better with some ammo than others but I would not get too bogged down with the sorting process.

Bill

I agree about the weight batching, but it was worth the exercise to confirm it for myself
I can't agree about the rim thickness batching though. Have you actually tried it yourself?
I shot hundreds of Remington Cyclones with reasonable but not great accuracy, around 2.5MoA at best. I'd read about rim batching and felt that really cheap, poorly-shooting ammo would be perfect for testing as the results should be fairly obvious, so I batched 1000 of them. After batching them to the nearest thousandth of an inch (they varied across eight-thou) I reduced the group size to half of what it was. My records indicate a 5rd 22mm group at 50m was the best I achieved with them off the bench, still not target-quality, but far better at 1.5MoA. I shot batched and unbatched groups all in one session. I have shot 33 boxes of Cyclones so far, and they shoot well provided they're shot as batches by weight. For a few hours effort it can be worth doing.

[Wm.Traynor]

Another fascinating topic

[Bills Shed]

As I said,
As to rim thickness, if it works for you go for it.
Just enjoy what you do. Keep shooting

Bill