Am I missing something?

[allthegearandnoidea]

Hi all
I sold all my guns after Port Arthur and now its just my wife and me again Ive got a firearms licence and have now replaced the guns I had before - excpt for the Mini 14 and SKS
I have a 308, 223, 12 U/O and 12g H&R Ultraslug. I dont miss the Mini 14 (much) and am prepared to live without it without complaint because I believe its a sacrifice we needed to make. And let's face it semi auto really falls into the category of "I just want one". If I need to bust a mob of pigs Ill buy a lever action.

So my point is, are our gun laws as draconian as some say? I've been able to replace all my non semi's within a few months and these days I have access to tacticool chassis rifles like the Ruger Precision rifle - although obviously being black it scares me a bit.

What say you forumers? Speak your wisdom
PS Ive also had a visit from a very nice copper who checked my storage arangements and he wasnt fazed when my listed 3 guns turned out to be 4 in my safe - paperwork hadnt gone through yet apparently so he just took photo of serial no. and all good

[Thom318]

Personally, I don't think they really are that bad, and I'm in WA of all places. I'll admit, there are a few laws that don't make sense to me, and I feel some requirements are intentionally strict so they self regulate, but I keep thinking they could be a hell of a lot worse.
In saying that, I wish semi-auto rimfires were just Cat B, but that's just because I want a 10/22 and don't want to jump through the Cat C hoops

[southeast varmiter]

Is this a therapy thread?

[bigpete]

I tend to agree. There are some laws that piss me off but on the whole I'm not too dissatisfied. But I hate the whole guilty till proven innocent stigma attached to being a LAFO these days.

[trekin]

"And let's face it semi auto really falls into the category of "I just want one"."
"I just want one", but I won't go and get one because I am law abiding, and because that same law (here in QLD) will punish me worse, because I have a licence, than someone who is unlicenced.
Of course, I could surrender my licences, sell all my firearms, then go and buy a blackmacket semi, become a paperwork criminal whose only worry is how much the wet lettuce will tickle before walking out of the courthouse and buying another.
The laws relating to firearms, no matter which State you are from, have done nothing, zip, nada to make the citizens of this country any safer.

[Gwion]

I tend to agree. There are some laws that piss me off but on the whole I'm not too dissatisfied. But I hate the whole guilty till proven innocent stigma attached to being a LAFO these days.

That the only real problem. Guilty until proven innocent.
At least the checks prevent known nutters from walking into kmart a nd waalking out with a gun. That and safe storage requirements preventing kids playing with dad's guns are the two good things the NFA did but not being able to keep a loaded mag incase i see a feral walking across the back paddock is annoying as all get out.

[Gwion]

"And let's face it semi auto really falls into the category of "I just want one"."
"I just want one", but I won't go and get one because I am law abiding, and because that same law (here in QLD) will punish me worse, because I have a licence, than someone who is unlicenced.
Of course, I could surrender my licences, sell all my firearms, then go and buy a blackmacket semi, become a paperwork criminal whose only worry is how much the wet lettuce will tickle before walking out of the courthouse and buying another.
The laws relating to firearms, no matter which State you are from, have done nothing, zip, nada to make the citizens of this country any safer.

Yep. They definitely need to crack down on illicit gun ownership a nd use. Make illegal use of guns heavily punishable.
But.
If you think it's that easy to procure blackmarket guns i invite you to go try. And, if you succeed, i question your claim of being a law abiding firearms owner because crims won't just deal with anyone that asks and if you think buying a hot semi or hand gun is easy i contest you are dealing with criminals already.

[slickncghia]

My main issue among many is we don't have a right to self defence in aus. It's more of a mitigating circumstance

I'd be happy if we had a no obligation to retreat , lethal force, life or property style law within the domain of my house.

I can make peace with most of the rest. But not being able to utilize tools to protect myself and family from blokes kicking my door in at 2am is in my eyes ridiculous.

[Gwion]

I'd be happy if we had a no obligation to retreat , lethal force, life or property style law within the domain of my house.

Oh please. Not this again. This has been covered so many times.
You already have all those things you can just not keep any weapon for the purpose of 'self defence'.

[slickncghia]

You already have all those things

I believe you are slightly incorrect. It's a legal defence not a right. There are excessive force laws.
Whilst we do have the below to classify self defence it doesn't over right the obligation not to use excessive force. The common wording reasonable and necessary. All that escalation of force jazz.

A person carries out conduct in self-defence if, and only if, he or she believes the conduct is necessary:

to defend himself or herself or another person; or
to prevent or terminate the unlawful imprisonment of himself or herself or another person; or
to protect property from unlawful appropriation, destruction, damage or interference; or
to prevent criminal trespass to any land or premises; or
to remove from any land or premises a person who is committing criminal trespass.

The excessive force laws lean towards partial defence and mitigating circumstances for the things I mentioned. So you might get manslaughter instead of murder

[marksman]

all of my firearms are because "I just want one"

I really don't like how I cant have a self loader shotgun for shooting rabbits and duck? or a self loader 22?
the waiting periods for licence or permit to acquire are just crap and not needed
the firearm registry is a waste of time and money, the registry has been known to be the cause of gun thefts when someone hits the wrong button
having to have a genuine reason is just bullsh!t, unless you only shoot comp anyone can put anything that will be satisfactory
(a good thing for the clubs like the ssaa who were about bankrupt before shooters thought they had to join a club to keep there licence )
alarms on your setups, I trip my alarm at least once a month and never has anyone inquired about it ever? maybe the neighbours just don't like me
the only thing I agree about locking up your firearms is it will keep your kids out, it does not stop the crims
the licence safety test IMO is made of should do's and have to's, it makes it confusing for new applicants, it should only be have to's

I'm in Victoria and I don't think we have the worst gun laws but if the authority's had there way we would only have single shots

[straightshooter]

My main issue among many is we don't have a right to self defence in aus. It's more of a mitigating circumstance

I'd be happy if we had a no obligation to retreat , lethal force, life or property style law within the domain of my house.

I can make peace with most of the rest. But not being able to utilize tools to protect myself and family from blokes kicking my door in at 2am is in my eyes ridiculous.

You are a deluded inhabitant of LALALAND if you actually think you have ANY rights in Australia.
What you have are privileges granted to you by your state or federal government.
Carefully read your state's constitution.
It will most likely be similar to that of NSW.
You will somewhere find a clause with words to the effect of - the state government may make a law for any purpose whatsoever -
It may be camouflaged with words like ' for the purpose of good government' or similar which make it sound like as if it is constrained in some way.
What it says is EXACTLY what it means and it doesn't require too much facility in English to understand what it means.
You don't have a RIGHT if it can be granted or withdrawn at the pleasure of the government or if you can be destroyed by legal processes because you exercised your perceived RIGHT.
As it was once put to me by a legal type person, the only real recourse the NSW public has is at the next election.

[trekin]

"And let's face it semi auto really falls into the category of "I just want one"."
"I just want one", but I won't go and get one because I am law abiding, and because that same law (here in QLD) will punish me worse, because I have a licence, than someone who is unlicenced.
Of course, I could surrender my licences, sell all my firearms, then go and buy a blackmacket semi, become a paperwork criminal whose only worry is how much the wet lettuce will tickle before walking out of the courthouse and buying another.
The laws relating to firearms, no matter which State you are from, have done nothing, zip, nada to make the citizens of this country any safer.

Yep. They definitely need to crack down on illicit gun ownership a nd use. Make illegal use of guns heavily punishable.
But.
If you think it's that easy to procure blackmarket guns i invite you to go try. And, if you succeed, i question your claim of being a law abiding firearms owner because crims won't just deal with anyone that asks and if you think buying a hot semi or hand gun is easy i contest you are dealing with criminals already.

And this is exactly what I was talking about!! Making people into paperwork criminals because one thinks that someone else might do the wrong thing, so pass a law to prevent the 0.01% chance that they might. Yes, I may, or may not, have the knowledge of how to procure a semi from the blackmarcket (as do the police), but I choose NOT to break the law.
So what you are saying, is that because I've worked as an assistant shotfirer in the distant past, and the knowledge gained from attending school back in the day when real chemistry was taught, that you would consider me to be terrorist just waiting to blow people up. This I expect from the antis, the Govt, and the police, but I must say to hear it from someone within our own ranks rates pretty low on my list.
The laws, as they stand, only effect, and are only abided by, those who choose to not break them.

[Daddybang]

The appearance laws are bullsh@t.(a bit of solidarity with the southern boys) Also the fact that once you are accepted as being fit and proper(I F@#ken hate that term) you are then told no sorry if we give you a semi there's too much chance of you turning into a crazy mass murderer. Then there are all the bullsh@t ways to loose ya license eg a loose round sitting in the center console that ya missed when cleaning up. (Although I believe nsw is moving towards a warning system? )
And like most the guilty til proven innocent pisses me right off.

[Wylie27]

OSo why did you give up after Port Arthur?

I am licenced to have semi automatic pistols which i can use in competitions like, action matches, ipsc, service, issf etc etc but it is not ok for me to own a semi automatic rifle for competition?

Onerous... hmm asking permission to buy another gun, ammo bills, being on crimtrak and treated like a crim every traffic stop, appearance laws, guilty until proven innocent, ever increasing safe storage requirements, banning lever actions, magazine limits shall i go on?

There are legitimate reasons for owning a semi in both hunting and sporting applications and its not just a case of i just want one.. thats a tag line for hsv.



Thats off the top of my head

[sungazer]

With the rules that the majority on this forum seem to accept as at least in good practice to prevent child deaths. The whole self defense purpose goes out the window.
Intruder kicks you door in at 2 am, first you have to wake up and become thinking and process what may be going on. Intruder is probably now at the foot of your bed. You still have to get out of bed, find the key to the safe, get to the safe and open it.
Then with the rules that many would like to see gone the ammo stored in a different room in another locked container, magazines stored empty somewhere else. Absolutely no time to do all this and confront an intruder on equal terms.

[slickncghia]

With the rules that the majority on this forum seem to accept as at least in good practice to prevent child deaths. The whole self defense purpose goes out the window.
Intruder kicks you door in at 2 am, first you have to wake up and become thinking and process what may be going on. Intruder is probably now at the foot of your bed. You still have to get out of bed, find the key to the safe, get to the safe and open it.
Then with the rules that many would like to see gone the ammo stored in a different room in another locked container, magazines stored empty somewhere else. Absolutely no time to do all this and confront an intruder on equal terms.

everyone's house is different.

mine is two story, gravel driveway and the way someone would get into my house "window/door" would hopefully be loud enough for me a light sleeper to wake. then to the safe which could be in the closet next to bed. couple of quick pin numbers and we are in action. quicker than I believe an intruder would get to the bedroom not knowing its way around the house or which room I would be in. key is YMMV

yes the storage conditions do reduce the chances of it being used effectively but that isn't enough to give up on it in my opinion.

[burek]

I agree that our laws are not "as bad" as some make it out to be but there are plenty of instances where they are self evidently draconian and effective at only pestering the law abiding.

I'm all for the background check and licensing but categories A to C is just BS that achieves nothing except trip up those that choose to follow the law. If I'm good to go with one gun how am I a ticking time bomb with another, after being deemed "fit and proper"?

Appearance laws. Appearance to whom? We're not supposed to be brandishing guns in front of the public so who cares what they may appear like to the clueless? What is "military appearance" anyway? Why isn't this contested in courts. Just seems to me like it couldn't stand up to a well reasoned argument in front of a non biased judge.

Just the general little regulations that imply that you as a gun owner are a clandestine criminal in waiting. After of course having passed the background checks. One glaring example, the registry and the imposed storage inspections. Just a thinly veiled stand over tactic (Don't hold it against the individual coppers for obvious reasons). There are others like sometimes tricky transport laws. Not allowing suppressors for general health and safety because of some theoretical Hollyturd scenario. Again, we're covert evil doers implied.

But with all that, we have it much much better for hunting than the US with their regulations.

[Gwion]

So what you are saying, is that because I've worked as an assistant shotfirer in the distant past, and the knowledge gained from attending school back in the day when real chemistry was taught, that you would consider me to be terrorist just waiting to blow people up. This I expect from the antis, the Govt, and the police, but I must say to hear it from someone within our own ranks rates pretty low on my list.
The laws, as they stand, only effect, and are only abided by, those who choose to not break them.

That is a crazy and pointless analogy. Having an industrial skill or knowledge is in no way analogous to wilfully breaking the law (having un-registered firearms).
OK, so you don't break the law but if it is easy for you to get a semi-auto with out a catC or carD, then you know people who do.

Do tell us: hypothetically: these people who are so numerous with semi-autos to sell to any and all takers; would they sell me one if I just walked up and asked them in the pub? Would they sell one to someone they thought was potentially another Martin Bryant?

I think you know the answers to both those questions is no.
So, it's not as easy as some of you like to make out to procure illegal weapons. You have to spend time gaining the trust of the crim who sells them and risk the repercussions if you screw up and bring attention to them.

Like it or not; it is the law and if you or your friends decide to ignore it you are in breach of the law and guilty of an offence. If you were truly "law abiding" you would hand the guns in or sell them in an amnesty.

[trekin]

So what you are saying, is that because I've worked as an assistant shotfirer in the distant past, and the knowledge gained from attending school back in the day when real chemistry was taught, that you would consider me to be terrorist just waiting to blow people up. This I expect from the antis, the Govt, and the police, but I must say to hear it from someone within our own ranks rates pretty low on my list.
The laws, as they stand, only effect, and are only abided by, those who choose to not break them.

That is a crazy and pointless analogy. Having an industrial skill or knowledge is in no way analogous to wilfully breaking the law (having un-registered firearms).
OK, so you don't break the law but if it is easy for you to get a semi-auto with out a catC or carD, then you know people who do.

Do tell us: hypothetically: these people who are so numerous with semi-autos to sell to any and all takers; would they sell me one if I just walked up and asked them in the pub? Would they sell one to someone they thought was potentially another Martin Bryant?

I think you know the answers to both those questions is no.
So, it's not as easy as some of you like to make out to procure illegal weapons. You have to spend time gaining the trust of the crim who sells them and risk the repercussions if you screw up and bring attention to them.

Like it or not; it is the law and if you or your friends decide to ignore it you are in breach of the law and guilty of an offence. If you were truly "law abiding" you would hand the guns in or sell them in an amnesty.

Four simple words that seperate every single law abiding person from criminals, "I choose not to". Yes, the above analogy is crazy and pointless, but no more crazy and pointless than your assertion that if someone may, or may not, know certain things but chooses not to break the law by acting on that knowledge, then they are criminals themselves. Do you ring the police everytime you see someone run a red light or fail to indicate etc? Do I now have to wait for the police to raid me because you now believe that I may be criminal just because I choose not break the law by acting on knowledge I may/may not have?

[Gwion]

I never said you were a criminal. I said that if it was easy for you to acquire illegal firarms then you are skating on the edge of the law.

I personally believe that anyone who claims it is easy for the average joe (let a lone an average nuttervready to snap and let loose in public) to acquire illicit semi auto firearms is completely full of unsubstantiated hyperbole.

[Bigjobss]

The most effective part of our gun laws is that to the average person they seem difficult and prohibitive, even though IMO they are really not that bad.
I have spoken to many people that have no idea about our guns laws, we all have, the perception that it is extremely hard to legally get a gun in Australia keeps the average shotkicker away, this is a good thing.

[southeast varmiter]

Prevent child deaths? What a croc, guns have virtually no statistical presence in child deaths, ever. Try abortion. Adverse drug reactions and maternal homocide rate up there.

Second for the cucks here, with more than 300,000 untraceable semis and pistols out there why is there no massacres every week.
Here’s the cliff notes for you - guns are not a problem.

[Bigjobss]

Prevent child deaths? What a croc, guns have virtually no statistical presence in child deaths, ever. Try abortion. Adverse drug reactions and maternal homocide rate up there.

Second for the cucks here, with more than 300,000 untraceable semis and pistols out there why is there no massacres every week.
Here’s the cliff notes for you - guns are not a problem.

Exactly.
Australia only has about 250 homicides a year in total, 32% by knives, 24% by beatings and 13% by guns, so about 35 people are murdered by a gun per year, I wonder how many of those are actually legal firearms? You are almost as likely to be intentonally poisoned and killed than shot to death.

Then you can look at suicide stats, car accidents, preventable diseases such as diet and lifetstyle related heart diseases and cancers and you see tens of THOUSANDS preventable deaths a year, but NOOOOOOOO we must ban the bad guns.

[marksman]

Prevent child deaths? What a croc, guns have virtually no statistical presence in child deaths, ever. Try abortion. Adverse drug reactions and maternal homocide rate up there.

Second for the cucks here, with more than 300,000 untraceable semis and pistols out there why is there no massacres every week.
Here’s the cliff notes for you - guns are not a problem.

well said

[Norton]

If I need to bust a mob of pigs Ill buy a lever action.

Not the same thing by a long shot for a professional volume culler.

[allthegearandnoidea]

By a long shot haha I see what you did there
BUT seriously, when you start talking professional shooter they have legal access to semis anyway dont they?

[bladeracer]

I never said you were a criminal. I said that if it was easy for you to acquire illegal firarms then you are skating on the edge of the law.

I personally believe that anyone who claims it is easy for the average joe (let a lone an average nuttervready to snap and let loose in public) to acquire illicit semi auto firearms is completely full of unsubstantiated hyperbole.

Personally, I couldn't care less if the average joe wants an illegal firearm if he's got no criminal intent for it. Virtually all of our illegal guns are only illegal now, because a law was made that made them illegal if you didn't register them. I don't care if there are ten-million "illegal" guns out there if they're not causing anybody any harm. It's a waste of Police resources pursuing these guns. They need to focus on taking guns off violent criminals, or even better, just focus on taking all violent criminals off our streets.

People that are likely to commit murder are already involved in those tiers of society where illegal guns are readily available. The average joe that merely wants a gun "just because" he wants a gun might have more trouble finding an illegal gun, but as he's not intending to do anything criminal with it anyway how exactly does that make our society any safer?

[bladeracer]

Intruder kicks you door in at 2 am, first you have to wake up and become thinking and process what may be going on. Intruder is probably now at the foot of your bed. You still have to get out of bed, find the key to the safe, get to the safe and open it.
Then with the rules that many would like to see gone the ammo stored in a different room in another locked container, magazines stored empty somewhere else. Absolutely no time to do all this and confront an intruder on equal terms.

In my instance I wasn't aware of any trouble until the guy jumped on my chest with a knife (bad people are fully aware they don't need guns to kill people) to my throat. A gun even loaded under my pillow probably wouldn't have helped me, but I still think it should be my choice to have one if I feel that is an option that might save my life or those around me.

[Bruiser64]

This is an interesting question: Are our gun laws really that bad? As we can see by the responses it all depends on your perspective and value set. Personally, as a law abiding individual I at times find them a bit of a pain. The application process and the time it takes to get your new firearm is irritating when I know I have only a law abiding intention.

However, For my work I have a lot of contact with criminals. Knowing what I know about them, I am extraordinarily pleased that our firearms laws prevent quick access to them for the crims. Most criminals in WA don’t use firearms in their crimes as they are hard to obtain and very expensive on the black market. In my experience most crims are impulsive and opportunistic in their criminal behaviour. Most of them dont have the financial means to obtain a black market firearm. Unlike the USA firearrms are not ubiquitous in the community. Their relative scarcity overall reduces their availability to crims. Those that are in existence are expensive and difficult to obtain. Unless the crim themselves has stolen a firearm from a legal owner, they, in my observation of them, are not likely to have one.

The Gun buyback removed a bit over 600,000 firearms from the Australian community. This fact alone reduced firearms availability to crims. I personally am still annoyed about the buyback as I lost my semi auto shottie. So having said that our firearms laws are irritating if you know you are law abiding. They have however significantly reduced the pool of firearms available to your common or garden numpty violent crim. Who, by the way, is what most of them are based on my observation of them in their natural habitat ( prison).

So on balance, whilst I personally find the laws inconvenient, they have not prevented me from legally pursuing my shooting and hunting hobby. I am willing to accept that inconvenience as I am confident that it reduces the lethality of the violent behaviour of the crims I deal with.