bigrich wrote:mate if ya shootin' groups like that fast with the standard buck horn sights ya doin' ok . i did the same sort of test at 50 rapid fire with my mod '94 30-30 with williams peeps with a large apperature and grouped around the same. looks like pig killin' shots every time. you could play with peep sights or ,scope it and get tighter groups. kinda depends on your definition of a lever gun. for me, it's a light weight, quick to point, close range scrub gun.
in2anity wrote:Hey peeps,
New to the whole pistol cartridge world I'm starting to work up loads for the latest (stainless 24") Chiappa 1892 action. Projectiles are a hard-cast 240gn, RNFP slightly oversized to .430". Groups shot at a distance of 50m over AR2205 (with tang + front globe). 10 shot groups without much of a breather between groups, so admittedly barrel got pretty hot.
I'm kinda aiming for in-the-realm of 1" - 1.5" @50m (which these are clearly not!). Does anyone agree these groups are sub-par? Are my expectations a bit unrealistic?
Cheers,
In2.
in2anity wrote:I want to use it for PC-CLAS - that's why I'm chasing accuracy. For example my scores are measurably better when I use my moa lithy vs my mate's 2moa martini - so I'm presuming the same ideals ultimately translate across to CLAS. It's funny you know; i chased accuracy with my marlin 30/30 in a time past, and I kinda came to the conclusion that the 30/30 was pretty "inaccurate". But now shooting this rifle I'm feeling as thought the 30/30 ain't so bad after all...
bigrich wrote:well in2anity. if your looking at competing in lever class you need a top notch set of peeps. got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30. biggest problem of lever guns is snub nosed projectiles for the tube mags. BR has put up a lot of good advice to take on board. besides all that, practice ,practice,practice.
bigrich wrote:well in2anity. if your looking at competing in lever class you need a top notch set of peeps. got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30. biggest problem of lever guns is snub nosed projectiles for the tube mags. BR has put up a lot of good advice to take on board. besides all that, practice ,practice,practice.
bigrich wrote:got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30
bigrich wrote:find some thick scrub in2anity, with plenty pigs/goats and your 44 will be in it's element. have heard 357 is heaps more accurate, but as BR said doesn't have enough knock down for silhoette . damned if ya do , damned if ya don't. another quirk of lever guns is my 30-30 shoots tighter groups when held in hands on elbows on the bench rather than using a rest. have heard this before, and in my case it's true. hey BR what front lyman sight do i need to match my FP williams rear peep sight ? i'm not looking at any CLAS shooting, just trying to get some quick to use sights sorted for hunting. i had a 336 marlin, and with a scope on it , was as heavy as a bolt gun so what's the point ? traded it on the '94 i have now ( 1974 built, like new ), but my eyes aren't as good as when i played with these 30 yrs ago. any advice would be appreciated. or i might just get a red dot equipped marlin in 45-70 instead where the extra weight would help. don't anybody say get both !
bladeracer wrote:I think you're asking two questions, potential accuracy of the cartridge, and of the rifle. A .44 Magnum bolt-action rifle could shoot significantly better than a lever. For load development I prefer to fit a scope to minimise shooter input.
My .44 is a Marlin '94 with Microgroove bore, which is problematical shooting cast bullets.
With jacketed bullets and a scope I've managed 40mm groups off a rest at 50m.
With hardcast .432" 232gn bullets I'm seeing about double that, scoped off a rest.
With Williams FP-336-TK peep sight, the 180gn jacketed HP XTP's are good, but still around 100mm at 50m rested.
With cast bullets around 120mm is possible, rested peep sight.
If you can shoot any non-competition rifle into 1.5" at 50m with iron sights you're doing pretty well. To do so with a short fat bullet out of a lever-action rifle I'd be very impressed indeed.
I think your groups are pretty decent myself.
The Uberti '66 .38 Special I've got down to 50mm groups at 50m, rested with Williams FP-336-TK peep, but with Berry's copper plated 125gn bullet. Hardcast is still very poor, around 150mm groups at 50m rested with a few different bullets. Frustratingly hopeless practicing on half-scale silhouettes still.
bladeracer wrote:I probably wouldn't recommend the globe-style front sight for hunting. Whether you go peep or notch at the rear is personal preference. For quick shots I prefer a peep, but it does limit your field of view, particularly when trying to track a moving target in cover.
Have you tried the Fire Sights with the glowing inserts?
I would certainly recommend a red dot if you're hunting larger game. I prefer the reticles of holographic sights, but I tend to find I can align my eye to a tube easier than trying to find a reticle floating on a sheet of glass mounted above the bore - probably just a matter of getting used to it. With a good red dot you don't even need a cheek weld like you do with open sights - you just need to find the dot, put it on the target, and pull the trigger.
groundhog wrote:Both 44 mag and 357 mag will work for CLAS rifle, preferably with heavy pills out of longer (24 inch) barrels. For the 44 this means 240 grain pills and for the 357 180 grain pills. As for the 38 special I don't know whether you have enough case capacity to fit the 180 grain pills as they are quite long with enough powder to keep them spinning out to 200m.
And yes Bladeracer you can use jacketed projectiles in CLAS.
in2anity wrote:This is some really useful info BR - thanks. I take it my groups are in the realm of somewhat "normal". I might actually try some jacketed loads to see what the rifle is capable of - any suggestions? 180gn HP XTPs good are they?
bigrich wrote:thanks for the advice guys, at present i have the standard silver bead front sight post on my '94 with the hunting peep at 95 thou. tried the fire sights, the front post was way to low, couldn't be stuffed trying to order different fire sight front posts to get mine right. might try a slightly smaller rear app hole, have seen ones on brownells that have a brass ring around the hole to help in low light conditions. anyone ever tried a ivory front bead ? ( wouldn't be real ivory, just what their called i suppose ) all things considered i can sight up real quick, anything under 100 is hit. over 100 things start to get a bit vague. just don't really want a scoped or red dot lever gun. sort of defeats the purpose IMHO. i'll try tinkering some more with the app sights and practice practice practice i guess
groundhog wrote:Both 44 mag and 357 mag will work for CLAS rifle, preferably with heavy pills out of longer (24 inch) barrels. For the 44 this means 240 grain pills and for the 357 180 grain pills. As for the 38 special I don't know whether you have enough case capacity to fit the 180 grain pills as they are quite long with enough powder to keep them spinning out to 200m.
And yes Bladeracer you can use jacketed projectiles in CLAS.
bladeracer wrote:I'll order some of Hornady's 200gn Interlock RN's to try in the .38.
bladeracer wrote:Keep in mind after shooting cast that it'll need a few jacketed bullets down the tube to clean it out before it'll start grouping, so don't give up if the first group is 12" or more
SillyWetTas wrote:I shot a 357 out of a 12inch contender pistol for unlimited standing for a while.
180grn were good out to the Turkeys (150m) but were unreliable on the rams at 200m.
Was running my own cast 200grn on the rams. Every ram hit went down.
Marcus
MrMickyD wrote:Much more fun to shoot em out of a revolver.