Stoney wrote:G'day All,
I have a silly question regarding cast bullets in a .303 if you could help. So, I am using Hawksbury River .311 180 grn cast bullets with the black coating. I am shooting at 50 yards at this stage with my Savage No4 Mk1* over open sights with a starting load of 23 grns of AR2206H. All good but accuracy not so good so I loaded 3 rounds in increments of .5 grn up until 24.5 grns were I encountered a cloud of blue smoke? The projectiles are non gas checked. Is that an indication of pushing the cast bullet too fast? Cheers.
bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:G'day All,
I have a silly question regarding cast bullets in a .303 if you could help. So, I am using Hawksbury River .311 180 grn cast bullets with the black coating. I am shooting at 50 yards at this stage with my Savage No4 Mk1* over open sights with a starting load of 23 grns of AR2206H. All good but accuracy not so good so I loaded 3 rounds in increments of .5 grn up until 24.5 grns were I encountered a cloud of blue smoke? The projectiles are non gas checked. Is that an indication of pushing the cast bullet too fast? Cheers.
.311" is too small for mine. Fine for jacketed though. I use .314" for cast.
You could try powder coating to bring the size up a little, but it's a pain having to get the lube off the bullets first.
Stoney wrote:So does anyone know why the cloud of blue smoke?
bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:So does anyone know why the cloud of blue smoke?
Possibly gas cutting as the gas blows past the bullet and melts it.
If you run a chronograph you'll know straight away, it'll be very slow - .311 cast in my No.4 were running around 700fps on fairly stout loads
Stoney wrote:bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:So does anyone know why the cloud of blue smoke?
Possibly gas cutting as the gas blows past the bullet and melts it.
If you run a chronograph you'll know straight away, it'll be very slow - .311 cast in my No.4 were running around 700fps on fairly stout loads
So, bin them Blade?
bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:So does anyone know why the cloud of blue smoke?
Possibly gas cutting as the gas blows past the bullet and melts it.
If you run a chronograph you'll know straight away, it'll be very slow - .311 cast in my No.4 were running around 700fps on fairly stout loads
So, bin them Blade?
Shoot them in something else.
Or melt and recast, or you could try swaging them up to size, or powdercoat them. Maybe even just a gas check would be sufficient. Can also try drilling a hole in the base of the bullet as it might be enough to get the bullet to obturate to fit the bore.
Stoney wrote:bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:bladeracer wrote:Stoney wrote:So does anyone know why the cloud of blue smoke?
Possibly gas cutting as the gas blows past the bullet and melts it.
If you run a chronograph you'll know straight away, it'll be very slow - .311 cast in my No.4 were running around 700fps on fairly stout loads
So, bin them Blade?
Shoot them in something else.
Or melt and recast, or you could try swaging them up to size, or powdercoat them. Maybe even just a gas check would be sufficient. Can also try drilling a hole in the base of the bullet as it might be enough to get the bullet to obturate to fit the bore.
Why do they even make them if they are that s**t?
Stoney wrote:So, Blade, do you know of anyone producing .312/.313/.314 cast bullets commercially? Thanks for your input mate, very much appreciated.
in2anity wrote:I think 23gr 2206H might be a little hot for HRBCs. Try 18 or to 20. Also 2207 is good - around 17 to 18. Btw have you slugged your barrel?
in2anity wrote:With cast bullets, my experience is Trail Boss can be a little hit-and-miss. I have a marlin cb that is insanely accurate with 2205, but is terrible with TB. I had a microgroove marlin which also didn’t really like TB. Meanwhile my Winchester 32-20 absolutely loves the stuff - prefers it over AP70 and 2205 hands-down. I think 2207 might be a good choice for you - what’s your barrel length and twist?
in2anity wrote:I had another thought- what are the bases like on your projectiles? Is there room for a gas check? Often the implications of a "designed-to-be-gaschecked" projectile seems to equate to a smaller rifling bearing surface on the lead itself, thus meaning less area to stabilise (when gas checks are omitted).
Stoney wrote:in2anity wrote:I had another thought- what are the bases like on your projectiles? Is there room for a gas check? Often the implications of a "designed-to-be-gaschecked" projectile seems to equate to a smaller rifling bearing surface on the lead itself, thus meaning less area to stabilise (when gas checks are omitted).
Yes mate, they are .308 gas checkable. No one makes a gas check in .311 go figure I really didn't want to go there with all the equipment involved in sizing and crimping and such. I just wanted to shoot lead bullets for fun.
Stoney wrote:in2anity wrote:I had another thought- what are the bases like on your projectiles? Is there room for a gas check? Often the implications of a "designed-to-be-gaschecked" projectile seems to equate to a smaller rifling bearing surface on the lead itself, thus meaning less area to stabilise (when gas checks are omitted).
Yes mate, they are .308 gas checkable. No one makes a gas check in .311 go figure I really didn't want to go there with all the equipment involved in sizing and crimping and such. I just wanted to shoot lead bullets for fun.
in2anity wrote:Stoney wrote:in2anity wrote:I had another thought- what are the bases like on your projectiles? Is there room for a gas check? Often the implications of a "designed-to-be-gaschecked" projectile seems to equate to a smaller rifling bearing surface on the lead itself, thus meaning less area to stabilise (when gas checks are omitted).
Yes mate, they are .308 gas checkable. No one makes a gas check in .311 go figure I really didn't want to go there with all the equipment involved in sizing and crimping and such. I just wanted to shoot lead bullets for fun.
I know what you mean, I had a lot of trouble getting lead to group when I first started out with it too. But don’t give up on the idea - I love shooting lead, guilt free plinking perfect for offhand plinking. I think I know the exact bullet - I once got a sample to see how they’d shoot through a microgroove 30/30, and they shot measurably worse than some 165gr RNFP-BBs sized to .310. Lubing them with the old pan-lube method will probably help. And you need to back off your powder as there is not much lead filling the grooves without the check. Explains why TB sucks - it’s likely too fast. Do you reckon it’d shoot a 115gr pill alright? Might be worth trying a .313” 32-20 pill - Les should send you a sample pack if you email him.
Stoney wrote:in2anity wrote:Stoney wrote:in2anity wrote:I had another thought- what are the bases like on your projectiles? Is there room for a gas check? Often the implications of a "designed-to-be-gaschecked" projectile seems to equate to a smaller rifling bearing surface on the lead itself, thus meaning less area to stabilise (when gas checks are omitted).
Yes mate, they are .308 gas checkable. No one makes a gas check in .311 go figure I really didn't want to go there with all the equipment involved in sizing and crimping and such. I just wanted to shoot lead bullets for fun.
I know what you mean, I had a lot of trouble getting lead to group when I first started out with it too. But don’t give up on the idea - I love shooting lead, guilt free plinking perfect for offhand plinking. I think I know the exact bullet - I once got a sample to see how they’d shoot through a microgroove 30/30, and they shot measurably worse than some 165gr RNFP-BBs sized to .310. Lubing them with the old pan-lube method will probably help. And you need to back off your powder as there is not much lead filling the grooves without the check. Explains why TB sucks - it’s likely too fast. Do you reckon it’d shoot a 115gr pill alright? Might be worth trying a .313” 32-20 pill - Les should send you a sample pack if you email him.
Yes mate, I am willing to give that a try. I don't know who Les is unfortunately.
in2anity wrote:I honestly think the .313” 115gr 32-20 bb bullets over say 9-10gr AP70N might actually work... If you lik I could send you a handful to try
Stoney wrote:That's very generous of you in2anity. Bloody good to get help such as yours. If you want to send projectiles please don't make it cost anything to yourself .
gunnnie wrote:Have you considered paper patching those .311" cast projos? This would add the nneeded girth to help seal the projo in the rifling as well as possibly improving accuracy.
I've never done it myself but it isn't an unusual method when it comes to shooting cast pills.
Hadn't considered using TB in a 32-20! Very interesting. I'm using 2205 behind Redback 115gn coated cast FN pills. Out of my 1892 Winchester this combo works well, but your comment has picqued my interest.
I am planning on shooting cast in several of my 303's also, so will be keen to read more or your pathway to knowledge in this regard.