Beginner gun safe question

Questions about Victorian gun and ammunition laws. Victorian Firearms Act 1996.

Beginner gun safe question

Post by Beas2624 » 30 Dec 2018, 8:48 pm

I currently have my one .22lr at a friend's place as we are currently renting, but as he lives 40mins away it has become a pain to have to go to his place everytime I want to shoot. So I have been looking into getting my own safe.

I am trying to decide between a smaller safe for money saving as budget is main concern or to future proof myself and buy a bigger one now, because buying one bigger safe is cheaper than two smaller safes, the ones I was considering are: (prices from local gun shop)

Lockaway LOK1K
http://lokawaysafe.com/products/gun-saf ... -safe.html
3-4 gun $360

Hunt Pro H4
https://www.huntpro.com.au/products/h4
4 gun $320

Spika S2
https://spika.com.au/product/medium-safe-2018-range
8 gun $420

Lockaway LOK2K
http://lokawaysafe.com/products/gun-saf ... -safe.html
5-7 gun $445

I was also wondering as a temporary solution while we are renting, if it would be a legal and feasible option to just buy a $75 galvanized toolbox from Bunnings (https://www.bunnings.com.au/rhino-1050- ... x_p5810158) and bolt that down.

As I'm in VIC the laws are a bit iffy and just say:
"The firearm must be stored in a receptacle—
(a) which is constructed of hard wood or steel
that is not easily penetrable; and
(b) which, if it weighs less than 150 kilograms
when it is empty, must be fixed to the frame
of the floor or the wall of the premises where
the firearm is kept in such a manner that it is
not easily removable; and
(c) which, when any firearm is stored in it, is
locked with a lock of sturdy construction."

It seems as though the toolbox would meet these standards but I'm not sure if an officer inspecting it would agree.

It seems as though it would be more inconspicuous as it doesn't look like a gun safe. I could even write "camping mats and tents" on it. The latch that the padlock goes on also has a cover so getting bolt cutters on the lock would be difficult. Just looking for some advice, and I know the proper safes are definitely the better option and something I definitely want to get in the future, but just looking at all my options.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by zhuk » 30 Dec 2018, 8:58 pm

Get the biggest you can possibly afford. I got a tiny Gladiator 3 gun safe at first, thinking "Oh, I'll never have more than about 2 guns at most"

Ahahahahaha. . . five safes later /facepalm lol
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 30 Dec 2018, 9:39 pm

No toolbox won't work. While the act says you can make with wood, my safety course guys mentioned they are very likely to change this law anytime. Plus hinges need to be hidden which they aren't. Plus there lock latch is useless.

Mate have a read of this forum a question has been asked about safe in a rental house a few good suggestions were given. You could rip of a corner of carpet or drill holes in garage. Or even a fort knox type storage facility etc
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by JWD40 » 31 Dec 2018, 1:11 am

Three point locking mechanism and hidden hinges is the hardest part to comply with. There aren't a huge number of tool boxes that comply with this.

10 years ago, my next door neighbour used to use a tool cabinet, he managed to find a steel one with a three point lock and internal hinges and that worked fine for him (not sure what he does now).

I'm not going to shoot you down (metaphorically) if you chose to use a tool cabinet. Being able to fit bucket loads of firearms in it for minimal coin is a very appealing idea, and if it meets the minimum legal requirements, who am I to say that you're doing the wrong thing.

However I personally don't think it's the best idea. I know a lot of gun lovers will hate me for this opinion, but I honestly believe firearms need to be adequately secured for everyone's safety when not in use. And I feel the average budget toolbox is just simply way too easy to break into, and an adequate toolbox could likely cost a lot more than a safe.

I recon most thieves would have a crack at the average tool cabinet. I'm confident i could get into one quickly. But if they saw a safe and it was exceedingly heavy or bolted to the ground, why would they bother, most people have pricey s**t laying around. Easy pickings.

I guess when it's the firearm that you want, the safe seems like one of those sly hidden costs when buying a car.
But trying to put a bit of perspective on it, you could get a band new 10 gun safe for the price of a brand new low end rifle. So percentage wise, a safe isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. And the percentage get's a lot better if you fancy high quality rifles and scopes.

My advise would be, if you're on a shoe string, buy a second hand safe.

zhuk wrote:Get the biggest you can possibly afford. I got a tiny Gladiator 3 gun safe at first, thinking "Oh, I'll never have more than about 2 guns at most"

Ahahahahaha. . . five safes later /facepalm lol


I couldn't agree with this more...

Depends on what kind of shooter you are i guess, and depending on your genuine reason.
If you're a shooter who just shoots for s**ts and giggles and does the bare minimum to maintain your licence. Then perhaps less than 4 guns is all you'll ever need or financially justify.
But if you're a hunter, or a serious firearm enthusiast, whatever you think you'll want over the next two years. Tipple that, and it might keep you content for 10 years... Might.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by zhuk » 31 Dec 2018, 6:28 am

JWD40 wrote:I recon most thieves would have a crack at the average tool cabinet. I'm confident i could get into one quickly. But if they saw a safe and it was exceedingly heavy or bolted to the ground, why would they bother, most people have pricey s**t laying around. Easy pickings.


Totally agreed
For years a mate of mine had one of those metal school lockers (with a padlock) for his longarms; he got an inspection a couple of months ago. Previous inspections were OK, but the locker didn't pass on this latest one, which lends creedence to the idea that the rules are being tightened up now. Even though the specific wording in the guidelines might suggest a locker is still OK.

Get a proper safe with the 3-point lock and concealed hinges, as JWD points out. Then you've got peace of mind.

(and get a big one lol)
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by JimTom » 31 Dec 2018, 7:52 am

Mate go and buy a proper safe to cover your backside. In addition, and this is always suggested to anyone asking a question about safes, buy bigger than what you think you will need.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Blr243 » 31 Dec 2018, 8:13 am

I noticed in the law ( steel not easily penetable) A hunting knife plunged into a bunnings metal tool box will get the guns. As would a hammer and chisel.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Beas2624 » 31 Dec 2018, 10:27 am

Ziad wrote:No toolbox won't work. While the act says you can make with wood, my safety course guys mentioned they are very likely to change this law anytime. Plus hinges need to be hidden which they aren't. Plus there lock latch is useless.

Mate have a read of this forum a question has been asked about safe in a rental house a few good suggestions were given. You could rip of a corner of carpet or drill holes in garage. Or even a fort knox type storage facility etc


There is actually a loose but if carpet in my wardrobe I can just lift up and bolt a safe down. I might look into that!
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Beas2624 » 31 Dec 2018, 10:29 am

JWD40 wrote:Three point locking mechanism and hidden hinges is the hardest part to comply with. There aren't a huge number of tool boxes that comply with this.

10 years ago, my next door neighbour used to use a tool cabinet, he managed to find a steel one with a three point lock and internal hinges and that worked fine for him (not sure what he does now).

I'm not going to shoot you down (metaphorically) if you chose to use a tool cabinet. Being able to fit bucket loads of firearms in it for minimal coin is a very appealing idea, and if it meets the minimum legal requirements, who am I to say that you're doing the wrong thing.

However I personally don't think it's the best idea. I know a lot of gun lovers will hate me for this opinion, but I honestly believe firearms need to be adequately secured for everyone's safety when not in use. And I feel the average budget toolbox is just simply way too easy to break into, and an adequate toolbox could likely cost a lot more than a safe.

I recon most thieves would have a crack at the average tool cabinet. I'm confident i could get into one quickly. But if they saw a safe and it was exceedingly heavy or bolted to the ground, why would they bother, most people have pricey s**t laying around. Easy pickings.

I guess when it's the firearm that you want, the safe seems like one of those sly hidden costs when buying a car.
But trying to put a bit of perspective on it, you could get a band new 10 gun safe for the price of a brand new low end rifle. So percentage wise, a safe isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. And the percentage get's a lot better if you fancy high quality rifles and scopes.

My advise would be, if you're on a shoe string, buy a second hand safe.

zhuk wrote:Get the biggest you can possibly afford. I got a tiny Gladiator 3 gun safe at first, thinking "Oh, I'll never have more than about 2 guns at most"

Ahahahahaha. . . five safes later /facepalm lol


I couldn't agree with this more...

Depends on what kind of shooter you are i guess, and depending on your genuine reason.
If you're a shooter who just shoots for s**ts and giggles and does the bare minimum to maintain your licence. Then perhaps less than 4 guns is all you'll ever need or financially justify.
But if you're a hunter, or a serious firearm enthusiast, whatever you think you'll want over the next two years. Tipple that, and it might keep you content for 10 years... Might.


Thanks for all this information, I think I am now definitely going to go with a safe, it seems like the best option, legally and just for security.

Now it's just deciding which one!
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Beas2624 » 31 Dec 2018, 10:30 am

Blr243 wrote:I noticed in the law ( steel not easily penetable) A hunting knife plunged into a bunnings metal tool box will get the guns. As would a hammer and chisel.


I think I might of glossed over that bit, that's a very good point, I think I'm definitely going with the safe now
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Beas2624 » 31 Dec 2018, 10:31 am

JimTom wrote:Mate go and buy a proper safe to cover your backside. In addition, and this is always suggested to anyone asking a question about safes, buy bigger than what you think you will need.


But how big is big enough?
$400 is pushing the budget or do I save some cash and go for the smaller safe?
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Beas2624 » 31 Dec 2018, 10:32 am

zhuk wrote:
JWD40 wrote:I recon most thieves would have a crack at the average tool cabinet. I'm confident i could get into one quickly. But if they saw a safe and it was exceedingly heavy or bolted to the ground, why would they bother, most people have pricey s**t laying around. Easy pickings.


Totally agreed
For years a mate of mine had one of those metal school lockers (with a padlock) for his longarms; he got an inspection a couple of months ago. Previous inspections were OK, but the locker didn't pass on this latest one, which lends creedence to the idea that the rules are being tightened up now. Even though the specific wording in the guidelines might suggest a locker is still OK.

Get a proper safe with the 3-point lock and concealed hinges, as JWD points out. Then you've got peace of mind.

(and get a big one lol)


How big????? :lol: would an eight gun be alright?
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Chappo » 31 Dec 2018, 10:42 am

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/14-Rifle-St ... 0722458890

I bought this one as my first safe.
I am very happy with it. It’s probably not quite as sturdy as a spika or lokaway but it’s HEAPS stronger than a tool cabinet or school locker.
I like the keypad entry too as I feel it’s more secure than hiding the keys somewhere for someone to find.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Chappo » 31 Dec 2018, 10:44 am

By the way, safes will never fit as many rifles neatly as they advertise.
Especially if they’ve all got scopes you could probably half the advertised capacity and that’d be more realistic.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Blutius Maximus » 31 Dec 2018, 2:45 pm

I don' think it Vic that it needs to be a 3 point locking system (though my steel safe is).
Is that a requirement in NSW?
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Blutius Maximus » 31 Dec 2018, 2:51 pm

Ziad wrote:While the act says you can make with wood, my safety course guys mentioned they are very likely to change this law anytime.


They were probably just trying to steer you away from this because they themselves don't like it.
It's in the Act and generally, changing laws is slow. How long has it been like this in the Act already?
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2018, 5:48 pm

Chappo wrote:By the way, safes will never fit as many rifles neatly as they advertise.
Especially if they’ve all got scopes you could probably half the advertised capacity and that’d be more realistic.


Correct. If you think you will buy 5 firearms get a 10 gun safe.

Lockers don’t cut it any more even though the act says other wise. I don’t know how the police get away with it but a safe is a must.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Member-Deleted » 31 Dec 2018, 6:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Chappo wrote:By the way, safes will never fit as many rifles neatly as they advertise.
Especially if they’ve all got scopes you could probably half the advertised capacity and that’d be more realistic.


Correct. If you think you will buy 5 firearms get a 10 gun safe.



Both so true. :drinks:
Fitting 3 scoped rifles in a 3 gun safe can require god-like Tetris skills.
Also, Parthenogenesis and firearms is a thing. I had one rifle 11 months ago, now I have 4.

With safes, buy nice, don't buy twice. I now have 2 gun safes (thankfully one was a freebie) but I should have bought a tenner first up.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Dec 2018, 6:17 pm

You can always squeeze a couple extra in by top and tailing and put them in a cheap gun sock. Saves buying another safe.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Baronvonrort » 31 Dec 2018, 6:33 pm

Get a bigger safe than you think will do, it will give you some incentive to fill it up.

What if you have a friend come over before you go hunting, where will he/she/it keep their guns while visiting?

I think people should buy the best safe they can get, many end up having to buy another so best to just spend once and not worry about future safe upgrades.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by bladeracer » 31 Dec 2018, 7:54 pm

Baronvonrort wrote:Get a bigger safe than you think will do, it will give you some incentive to fill it up.

What if you have a friend come over before you go hunting, where will he/she/it keep their guns while visiting?

I think people should buy the best safe they can get, many end up having to buy another so best to just spend once and not worry about future safe upgrades.



I've been through this with my own brother, as he was coming down here before I had the alarm system. His firearms would put me over the 15-firearm limit without an alarm.
But as he is only visiting, his firearms do not require permanent storage so they don't count.

But, more safes are always better!
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 31 Dec 2018, 10:11 pm

Better safe than sorry. ..is all i say
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by TassieTiger » 31 Dec 2018, 10:45 pm

On the cusp of buying sage no 4...you’d think I’d bloody learn.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Harrynsw » 31 Dec 2018, 11:35 pm

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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by TassieTiger » 31 Dec 2018, 11:44 pm

I’ve literally just been scanning eBay - pretty funny when your looking at the 20 gun safe they advertise on there - they show you a picture of the safe full of firearms - full to the max...but if u count up the firearms, they only managed to get 8 in there....misleading much?
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 01 Jan 2019, 7:32 am

Ebsy safes. .... two words i won't mix together.

But currently if you buy anything over $120 you can get a 10% discount voucher from ebay.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by JWD40 » 01 Jan 2019, 11:16 am

Beas2624 wrote: How big????? :lol: would an eight gun be alright?


It's really up to you to decide that. But most gun owners seem to be content with 1 or 2 guns to start with, but that grows over the years.
I rent, so i deliberately made the decision to get smaller safes (no bigger than 80kg). Makes it easier for me to move when i move house.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by JWD40 » 01 Jan 2019, 11:17 am

Chappo wrote:By the way, safes will never fit as many rifles neatly as they advertise.
Especially if they’ve all got scopes you could probably half the advertised capacity and that’d be more realistic.


+1 to that, their specs are very optimistic
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by JWD40 » 01 Jan 2019, 11:25 am

Jäger wrote:I don' think it Vic that it needs to be a 3 point locking system (though my steel safe is).
Is that a requirement in NSW?


It's a requirement in NSW, i believe the locking mechanism approval is left up to each state.
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Re: Beginner gun safe question

Post by JWD40 » 01 Jan 2019, 12:34 pm

Chappo wrote:https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/14-Rifle-Storage-Gun-Safe-Firearm-Security-Lockbox-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Bonus-/310722458890

I bought this one as my first safe.
I am very happy with it. It’s probably not quite as sturdy as a spika or lokaway but it’s HEAPS stronger than a tool cabinet or school locker.
I like the keypad entry too as I feel it’s more secure than hiding the keys somewhere for someone to find.


Playing devils advocate, the spika and lokaway aren't hugely safe either, really... I mean, it would be a big pain in the butt to pry the door open (which is really what you're paying for when you buy a gun safe). But in reality, most gun safes are constructed from sheet steel less than 3mm thick. A cordless angle grinder with a thin cutting disk would go through the side wall like a hot knife to butter. But obviously makes a lot of noise.

So i'd say, the link you posted here to the cabinet you purchased.. The gap between your cabinet and the spika/lokaway probably isn't as far as you think.
This might sound dumb, but appearance goes a long way. If it looks sturdy, thieves are more likely to just walk past it without a second look. The Spika and Lokaway are probably a bit harder to get into, but they look a crap load harder to get into.

As for the keypad thing... I'm not convinced they are any good to be honest. (just my personal opinion, each to their own).
The only way to solve the key hiding issue (which I agree, is a pain) is to put it in the safe, but then what happens if the electronics die, like die die as most electronics do at some point, then your backup is in the safe.
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