New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

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New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Nic » 11 Jan 2019, 10:25 am

Hi all,

I am new to the forum and this is my first post/thread. I've been reading threads on here for the last week or so and it seems a great community!

I've had a license for a while, but only have a 12g shotty (Browning Citori I got when I was about 16). I've used that mainly for clays, but not for quite a while.
Myself and my mate are now spurring each other on to get in to rifle shooting and hunting together. The problem is we're both noobs!

After some reading on here and other places I ended up putting a Cogswell and Harrison 22lr on layby yesterday. It seems a nice gun, and I figured that a 22lr was a good place to start!
My mate was lucky enough to get a tikka 223 second hand which seemed good value. Both are scoped.

We're now just in the process of scoping out some contacts for land to shoot on, as well as crown land. We're based around the Ballarat region.

The questions I now have are:
1) has anyone here got a C&H 22lr? If so, any recommended ammo? Ditto for the tikka 223?

2) We're just wanting to start with shooting rabbits and foxes (and I'd like to shoot targets). Eventually we'd love to get in to bigger stuff - but time and effort will play a part. Regardless, what would you see as a 'complete' set/collection of guns/calibres which would prep us for a wide variety of shooting? 12g + 22lr + 223 + 308?

3) Are there any good rifle Ranges around? I've had the Anakie one suggested as being decent. Many regional ones we can't do because Sundays are out for us. There's a Springvale one which let's ya shoot 22s I think but that's it yes?


Any help, advice, suggestions regarding any of this and more would be great.
Nic
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Daddybang » 11 Jan 2019, 4:03 pm

Double post :drinks:
Last edited by Daddybang on 11 Jan 2019, 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Daddybang » 11 Jan 2019, 4:04 pm

Gday nic :welcome: aboard :drinks:
A .22 and 223 are good to start with then it's really down to what you are going to be doing. Apparently min of 270 for deer in vic :unknown: so something around that chambering then a 30 cal of some description then a forty cal of some sort then......... I reckon ya see where its goin.
:lol: :lol: :drinks:
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Crazy » 11 Jan 2019, 4:39 pm

So far its seems that you and your mate have got the right idea in terms of firearms, with ammo for your 22. i would try and find which ammo your gun likes both sub and super-sonic ammo and get a brand for both sub and super that it likes. My rifle really only likes CCI ammo with some exemptions. Ranges i mainly go to is the SSAA range in little river, the SSAA range in Spring vale or on the odd chance i might go down to Bendigo when their field and game clay targets is on. With the Spring vale range you can only shoot 22. rim fire nothing higher and the little river range allows you to shoot anything .50BMG and under. If your wanting to go to NSW or SA and hunt pigs you can make do with the .223 with heavier bullets and correct shot placement but if your wanting to hunt deer in Vic legally you have to have a round no smaller then .270 but if you want to use the shotgun on deer for what ever reason slugs have to be used. In my opinion (so take it as you wish) the perfect caliber set up for Australia would be a 22lr, .223, .308 and 12ga. with this selection it allows you to take anything from duck and rabbits to deer. Hopefully this has given you some ideas and food for thought. Cheers. :drinks:
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 11 Jan 2019, 4:46 pm

Nic wrote:Regardless, what would you see as a 'complete' set/collection of guns/calibres which would prep us for a wide variety of shooting? 12g + 22lr + 223 + 308?


Hi Nic :-)
.22LR, .223, 7mm-08, .300WinMag, .44 Magnum lever-action, and a double 12.ga. would cover every situation, but it's more fun to have lots of firearms ;-)
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by cracker » 11 Jan 2019, 8:52 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Nic wrote:Regardless, what would you see as a 'complete' set/collection of guns/calibres which would prep us for a wide variety of shooting? 12g + 22lr + 223 + 308?


Hi Nic :-)
.22LR, .223, 7mm-08, .300WinMag, .44 Magnum lever-action, and a double 12.ga. would cover every situation, but it's more fun to have lots of firearms ;-)


.505 Gibbs for rabbits and work your way up.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Bruiser64 » 11 Jan 2019, 9:25 pm

22, 223, 308 and your shotgun will cover all shooting you are likely to do. Having said that I own a 17hmr, 22, 22 magnum, .204, .243 and a shotgun. I use all of them, as they each serve a different need on a range of properties I shoot on. More firearms is not a bad thing. They are like golf clubs. Each has a different job to do.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Stix » 11 Jan 2019, 9:51 pm

Bruiser64 wrote:22, 223, 308 and your shotgun will cover all shooting you are likely to do. Having said that I own a 17hmr, 22, 22 magnum, .204, .243 and a shotgun. I use all of them, as they each serve a different need on a range of properties I shoot on. More firearms is not a bad thing. They are like golf clubs. Each has a different job to do.


And just to add to this if you dont mind...

...sometines you need 3 sand wedges, 2 One wood's, & five Seven iron's...& then you may need to also have those same clubs in a synthetic version as well...& then also in a bull barrel version too...

Be very careful...!!! 8-)
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Bruiser64 » 12 Jan 2019, 8:39 am

Stix wrote:
Bruiser64 wrote:22, 223, 308 and your shotgun will cover all shooting you are likely to do. Having said that I own a 17hmr, 22, 22 magnum, .204, .243 and a shotgun. I use all of them, as they each serve a different need on a range of properties I shoot on. More firearms is not a bad thing. They are like golf clubs. Each has a different job to do.


And just to add to this if you dont mind...

...sometines you need 3 sand wedges, 2 One wood's, & five Seven iron's...& then you may need to also have those same clubs in a synthetic version as well...& then also in a bull barrel version too...

Be very careful...!!! 8-)


The fact is you are only allowed to carry 14 clubs though. So each club choice has a cost. I own more than fourteen clubs, but shift them around depending on the nature of the courses l play. Same with shooting. On some properties bunnies are thick on the ground and a 22 or a shotgun are ideal. On others the bunnies are there, but sitting that bit further out so my hmr is the go to rifle. It all depends upon context. Shooting is my main hobby at the moment and I am lucky enough to be able to afford to buy a number Of rifles.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 4:39 pm

Bruiser64 wrote:The fact is you are only allowed to carry 14 clubs though.


Only if you're playing by somebody else's rules. My rules say I can use as many damned clubs as I can fit in the ute :-)
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by cracker » 12 Jan 2019, 6:32 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Bruiser64 wrote:The fact is you are only allowed to carry 14 clubs though.


Only if you're playing by somebody else's rules. My rules say I can use as many damned clubs as I can fit in the ute :-)


theres no real limit but i think at 15 center fire they want you to be able to justify why you need that many.
which im sure most literate people are able to do

good idea to have target shooting and hunting on your a/b license too legally justify reason why you need xyz, just have to play the game !
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 7:04 pm

cracker wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Bruiser64 wrote:The fact is you are only allowed to carry 14 clubs though.


Only if you're playing by somebody else's rules. My rules say I can use as many damned clubs as I can fit in the ute :-)


theres no real limit but i think at 15 center fire they want you to be able to justify why you need that many.
which im sure most literate people are able to do

good idea to have target shooting and hunting on your a/b license too legally justify reason why you need xyz, just have to play the game !


Yep, number sixteen CatB they hold your PtA's and you get a letter.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Nic » 12 Jan 2019, 10:47 pm

Crazy wrote:So far its seems that you and your mate have got the right idea in terms of firearms, with ammo for your 22. i would try and find which ammo your gun likes both sub and super-sonic ammo and get a brand for both sub and super that it likes. My rifle really only likes CCI ammo with some exemptions. Ranges i mainly go to is the SSAA range in little river, the SSAA range in Spring vale or on the odd chance i might go down to Bendigo when their field and game clay targets is on. With the Spring vale range you can only shoot 22. rim fire nothing higher and the little river range allows you to shoot anything .50BMG and under. If your wanting to go to NSW or SA and hunt pigs you can make do with the .223 with heavier bullets and correct shot placement but if your wanting to hunt deer in Vic legally you have to have a round no smaller then .270 but if you want to use the shotgun on deer for what ever reason slugs have to be used. In my opinion (so take it as you wish) the perfect caliber set up for Australia would be a 22lr, .223, .308 and 12ga. with this selection it allows you to take anything from duck and rabbits to deer. Hopefully this has given you some ideas and food for thought. Cheers. :drinks:


Hi mate,

Thanks for your response! Very informative. Would you mind explaining the difference/effect of the sub and super sonic ammos? (again, I am super new to rifles).

Good to know there's some decent ranges around! I wouldn't mind checking out the Springvale range on a day off sometimes. Are they OK with newbies? I've heard the Geelong one can be tricky for newbies?

I reckon if I were to go after pigs and larger (one day), I would not trust myself with a 223 to get it done. Although I guess with practice it should be fine. I really like the sound of the 243 calibre as an all rounder - however not being allowed to use it on deer in Vic limits it here :(. I guess though that if travelling to other states to shoot this wouldn't matter so much.
I am not sure how I'd go with recoil so also unsure of the 270... What's it like? My understanding is that 308 kicks less (?) so would this be a better option?

Cheers and thanks again! :)
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Nic » 12 Jan 2019, 10:49 pm

Bruiser64 wrote:22, 223, 308 and your shotgun will cover all shooting you are likely to do. Having said that I own a 17hmr, 22, 22 magnum, .204, .243 and a shotgun. I use all of them, as they each serve a different need on a range of properties I shoot on. More firearms is not a bad thing. They are like golf clubs. Each has a different job to do.


The golf analogy proved popular in this thread! Haha! It does make a lot of sense. Thanks :)
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Nic » 12 Jan 2019, 10:51 pm

Daddybang wrote:Gday nic :welcome: aboard :drinks:
A .22 and 223 are good to start with then it's really down to what you are going to be doing. Apparently min of 270 for deer in vic :unknown: so something around that chambering then a 30 cal of some description then a forty cal of some sort then......... I reckon ya see where its goin.
:lol: :lol: :drinks:


Thanks for the welcome! And yes I can see where you're going with that... Not sure how I'd handle 30 cal stuff yet let alone 40+ :O
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 10:56 pm

Nic wrote:Thanks for your response! Very informative. Would you mind explaining the difference/effect of the sub and super sonic ammos? (again, I am super new to rifles).

Good to know there's some decent ranges around! I wouldn't mind checking out the Springvale range on a day off sometimes. Are they OK with newbies? I've heard the Geelong one can be tricky for newbies?

I reckon if I were to go after pigs and larger (one day), I would not trust myself with a 223 to get it done. Although I guess with practice it should be fine. I really like the sound of the 243 calibre as an all rounder - however not being allowed to use it on deer in Vic limits it here :(. I guess though that if travelling to other states to shoot this wouldn't matter so much.
I am not sure how I'd go with recoil so also unsure of the 270... What's it like? My understanding is that 308 kicks less (?) so would this be a better option?

Cheers and thanks again! :)


Subsonic is below the sound barrier, about 1080fps is subsonic. Supersonic is above the sound barrier, from 1100fps up past 4500fps. There is a tendency for supersonic bullets to get upset transitioning back down through the sound barrier, so very often you'll find subsonic ammo will be the most accurate in a .22LR, but not always. My Rugers shot best with SK High Velocity, which is now discontinued. Subsonic CCI Standard Velocity is their next preference, which is good as it's also quite cheap. I don't see any need to use a less-accurate high-velocity round in the .22LR. Just find what it shoots most accurately and use that for everything, but concentrate on shot placement regardless.

A .223 with an 8"-twist barrel with shoot up to about 80gn bullets, which should cope with most pigs at close ranges.
You can shoot the smaller deer species with .243 so don't rule it out entirely. Those bigger species are also more work to carry out of the bush ;-)

I'm not a fan of .270Win, I just don't see any reason to be using a long-action rifle these days. Have a look at the 7mm-08.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 11:14 pm

bladeracer wrote:Subsonic is below the sound barrier, about 1080fps is subsonic. Supersonic is above the sound barrier, from 1100fps up past 4500fps. There is a tendency for supersonic bullets to get upset transitioning back down through the sound barrier, so very often you'll find subsonic ammo will be the most accurate in a .22LR, but not always. My Rugers shot best with SK High Velocity, which is now discontinued. Subsonic CCI Standard Velocity is their next preference, which is good as it's also quite cheap. I don't see any need to use a less-accurate high-velocity round in the .22LR. Just find what it shoots most accurately and use that for everything, but concentrate on shot placement regardless.


A little more on the sound barrier. Punching a bullet through the sound barrier causes an "explosion" of sound waves in addition to the explosion of firing the cartridge inside the firearm. If you are a fair distance away from a supersonic gunshot, the sound of the shot might be reasonably quiet, sometimes quiet enough not be noticed right away as a threat. But when that bullet passes you, you are hit by the sound pressure wave being pushed ahead of the bullet, and hear the sonic crack. If it's fairly close it'll be significantly louder than your perception of the fired shot. Sometimes it can be advantageous to remove this additional noise by keeping your loads subsonic. If a subsonic bullet passes you, you hear virtually nothing, and the sound of the shot fired is quieter as well. Obviously the lower velocity also lowers the terminal energy of the bullet, so often you would choose a significantly heavier bullet for subsonic ammunition.

During flight, the bullet is being affected by gravity, drag and changing winds. The quicker you can get the bullet to reach the target, the less time it is being influenced by these outside forces. The less time it is effected by gravity, the flatter the trajectory curve will be, thus making it easier to hit your target at various distances. Likewise for wind.

It also matters at the terminal end of the situation though. Most jacketed hunting bullets require supersonic speeds, usually above about 1600fps, when they hit the target to be able to function, or "expand", as designed. At lower speeds they tend to go straight through making a very narrow wound channel, thus requiring optimal shot placement to be effective, and humane. A supersonic bullet also causes far more damage when it hits flesh, so effective hunting often prefers supersonic velocities. Subsonic hunting bullets are very often soft lead to allow them to deform at low terminal velocities.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by cracker » 13 Jan 2019, 9:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:
cracker wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Bruiser64 wrote:The fact is you are only allowed to carry 14 clubs though.


Only if you're playing by somebody else's rules. My rules say I can use as many damned clubs as I can fit in the ute :-)


theres no real limit but i think at 15 center fire they want you to be able to justify why you need that many.
which im sure most literate people are able to do

good idea to have target shooting and hunting on your a/b license too legally justify reason why you need xyz, just have to play the game !


Yep, number sixteen CatB they hold your PtA's and you get a letter.


yeah the letter is just explain why isnt it? think its the same with 3 of the same calibre... like if you had 3 mosin nagants or something
or 3x 308 rifles, its just an explain why, from what i gather if you have a legit reason they will still issue the pta.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 9:51 pm

cracker wrote:yeah the letter is just explain why isnt it? think its the same with 3 of the same calibre... like if you had 3 mosin nagants or something
or 3x 308 rifles, its just an explain why, from what i gather if you have a legit reason they will still issue the pta.


I did post my letter online somewhere, but yes, "further information".
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by cracker » 13 Jan 2019, 9:59 pm

bladeracer wrote:
cracker wrote:yeah the letter is just explain why isnt it? think its the same with 3 of the same calibre... like if you had 3 mosin nagants or something
or 3x 308 rifles, its just an explain why, from what i gather if you have a legit reason they will still issue the pta.


I did post my letter online somewhere, but yes, "further information".


ah okay thank you very much, sounds some what reasonable ?
im tipping you were able to get the pta threw, once you were able to demonstrate why you actually needed it.
just a pain in the ass delay i guess in the scheme of things.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 10:06 pm

cracker wrote:yeah the letter is just explain why isnt it? think its the same with 3 of the same calibre... like if you had 3 mosin nagants or something
or 3x 308 rifles, its just an explain why, from what i gather if you have a legit reason they will still issue the pta.


I was not able to find anybody that had heard of one of these being rejected. I _think_ it might be primarily a matter of a paper trail in that any reasonable response is adequate, they asked the question, got a response, arse is covered. They probably just hope to scare off anybody that can't think how to respond to the request, or can't be bothered responding. Simon Munslow advised me that he has done some of these responses for Victorians. But as I have to write up the information for him to formulate a response anyway it didn't make much sense, so I did my own.

Keep in mind, I think the number of Victorian firearm owners that own, or intend to own, more than 15 CatB firearms is probably really quite small. After 15 CatA/B firearms you also require the higher-level security including an alarm system, and I think that also applies to a relatively small number of owners.

This does not encompass CatA firearms at all, they don't care how many rimfires and shotguns we can own.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by cracker » 13 Jan 2019, 10:12 pm

bladeracer wrote:
cracker wrote:yeah the letter is just explain why isnt it? think its the same with 3 of the same calibre... like if you had 3 mosin nagants or something
or 3x 308 rifles, its just an explain why, from what i gather if you have a legit reason they will still issue the pta.


I was not able to find anybody that had heard of one of these being rejected. I _think_ it might be primarily a matter of a paper trail in that any reasonable response is adequate, they asked the question, got a response, arse is covered. They probably just hope to scare off anybody that can't think how to respond to the request, or can't be bothered responding. Simon Munslow advised me that he has done some of these responses for Victorians. But as I have to write up the information for him to formulate a response anyway it didn't make much sense, so I did my own.

Keep in mind, I think the number of Victorian firearm owners that own, or intend to own, more than 15 CatB firearms is probably really quite small. After 15 CatA/B firearms you also require the higher-level security including an alarm system, and I think that also applies to a relatively small number of owners.

This does not encompass CatA firearms at all, they don't care how many rimfires and shotguns we can own.


yeah iv never heard of anyone being knocked back either, just the law of maximum inconvenience i think.
very good point as well not alot of people have the same disease as we do.
i think your correct most firearms owners i know own less then 5, yeah thankfully shotguns and 22lrs dont apply !
what was your letter in relation too... i dont own alot of 30 cal stuff... so i dont know if iv ever came up for a letter... its all way bigger or small basically?
im pretty sure like .308 and .300 and 303 etc are all considered different in anycase
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 10:21 pm

cracker wrote:ah okay thank you very much, sounds some what reasonable ?
im tipping you were able to get the pta threw, once you were able to demonstrate why you actually needed it.
just a pain in the ass delay i guess in the scheme of things.


I was sitting on five Cat B PtA's by the time I finished the response, I had no doubt at all that I'd find a way to comply somehow :-)
I don't think I really gave any reason why I _needed_ any firearms, I basically just wrote about my great interest in, and enjoyment of, owning and using a great variety of firearms, both for historical study and for ethical hunting performance.

Yes, it was a just a delay, with a little bit of head-fuk thrown in :-)
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 10:26 pm

cracker wrote:yeah iv never heard of anyone being knocked back either, just the law of maximum inconvenience i think.
very good point as well not alot of people have the same disease as we do.
i think your correct most firearms owners i know own less then 5, yeah thankfully shotguns and 22lrs dont apply !
what was your letter in relation too... i dont own alot of 30 cal stuff... so i dont know if iv ever came up for a letter... its all way bigger or small basically?
im pretty sure like .308 and .300 and 303 etc are all considered different in anycase


It was not in reference to any specific firearm or cartridge, just the number of CatB.
I do have four 8x57mm, but they weren't mentioned. I don't generally need or want more than one of an example anyway.
I have calibers from .204 to 8x57mm, .38 Special, and .44 Magnum. I'm not particularly interested in the "thirties" but I have .30-06, 7.62x54R and .303 rifles so far.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Nic » 14 Jan 2019, 10:40 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Subsonic is below the sound barrier, about 1080fps is subsonic. Supersonic is above the sound barrier, from 1100fps up past 4500fps. There is a tendency for supersonic bullets to get upset transitioning back down through the sound barrier, so very often you'll find subsonic ammo will be the most accurate in a .22LR, but not always. My Rugers shot best with SK High Velocity, which is now discontinued. Subsonic CCI Standard Velocity is their next preference, which is good as it's also quite cheap. I don't see any need to use a less-accurate high-velocity round in the .22LR. Just find what it shoots most accurately and use that for everything, but concentrate on shot placement regardless.


A little more on the sound barrier. Punching a bullet through the sound barrier causes an "explosion" of sound waves in addition to the explosion of firing the cartridge inside the firearm. If you are a fair distance away from a supersonic gunshot, the sound of the shot might be reasonably quiet, sometimes quiet enough not be noticed right away as a threat. But when that bullet passes you, you are hit by the sound pressure wave being pushed ahead of the bullet, and hear the sonic crack. If it's fairly close it'll be significantly louder than your perception of the fired shot. Sometimes it can be advantageous to remove this additional noise by keeping your loads subsonic. If a subsonic bullet passes you, you hear virtually nothing, and the sound of the shot fired is quieter as well. Obviously the lower velocity also lowers the terminal energy of the bullet, so often you would choose a significantly heavier bullet for subsonic ammunition.

During flight, the bullet is being affected by gravity, drag and changing winds. The quicker you can get the bullet to reach the target, the less time it is being influenced by these outside forces. The less time it is effected by gravity, the flatter the trajectory curve will be, thus making it easier to hit your target at various distances. Likewise for wind.

It also matters at the terminal end of the situation though. Most jacketed hunting bullets require supersonic speeds, usually above about 1600fps, when they hit the target to be able to function, or "expand", as designed. At lower speeds they tend to go straight through making a very narrow wound channel, thus requiring optimal shot placement to be effective, and humane. A supersonic bullet also causes far more damage when it hits flesh, so effective hunting often prefers supersonic velocities. Subsonic hunting bullets are very often soft lead to allow them to deform at low terminal velocities.



Thank you for the recommendations, and then to the second post explaining the different types (because that would have been my next question).

2 more questions (sorry):

1. Firstly, you mentioned the 7mm-08 earlier I think. Can you help me understand that calibre, in relation to say a 243 or a 270? Is it higher than a 243 but lower than 270?
My understanding is that it is quite a flat shooting calibre. Given my mate is getting a 223, I am thinking I would like to get a gun capable of taking small deer (legally), goats, pigs, etc but also be loaded lighter to take fox as well. Would eother the 243 or the 7mm-08 be overkill for fox if loaded light?
I REALLY like the sound of a 243 as I feel it could work in so many situations, but in Vic we can't hunt bugger deer breeds with it. However deer hunting is still a VERY distant thing for me, so perhaps it doesn't matter (as it may never happen)... Thoughts?


2. Secondly, by what you're saying here I am feeling like subsonic is not a great option for the 22lr?
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 15 Jan 2019, 3:06 pm

7mm-08 is a commercialised "wildcat" of the .308 or 7.62x51mm NATO round necked down to a 7mm bullet. 6.5mm to 7mm is the "golden ratio" for bullet diameter and weight. In this region we see the highest velocity/ballistic coefficient advantages. Long, heavy bullets with extremely low drag (ELD) hang onto their velocity and energy at longer ranges. A lighter 7mm bullet doesn't hit as hard as a 7.62mm bullet at close ranges (under 300m or so), but can hit harder at longer ranges as the higher drag of the "fatter" 7.62mm bullet robs it of velocity more quickly. It's worth noting that the .243 is also a wildcat of the .308 with a 6mm bullet.

Don't get too caught up in flat shooting. It is rarely a requirement either on a range or for hunting nowadays. It is important for spotlighting where it's very difficult to accurately estimate range as it allows a dead-on hold out to 300m or so. For target shooting, the distances are known, so you just dial the scope to the elevation required. For hunting you use a laser rangefinder to range the target, and do the same with the scope.

If you are shooting foxes across open farmland where there's lots of wind the .243 can be a better choice than the .223, but it does have disadvantages as well, primarily noise - .243 is loud. You can also load it down and do most of your shooting at .22WMR or .22 Hornet levels. A 58gn bullet at 2020fps makes a very quiet .243 load that you can shoot all day, but the bullet is dropping below its expansion threshold by about 100m, so it's for close range only on foxes.

About 90% of my shooting in .204 is with 2400fps loads under about 150m, for longer shots I drop in a 4400fps load.

I don't own a .308 yet as I feel the 7mm-08 is a superior cartridge, but .308 is a fine cartridge in its own right.

.270 is another commercialised wildcat of the .30-06 with a .277" bullet. Also an excellent cartridge. But it is very long, requiring a "long-action" rifle and magazine to fit it. .308 and 7mm-08 fit in the same short-action as the little .223 round, giving you a shorter, lighter, more rigid action with a shorter bolt throw. The .270 is the "standard" length of military cartridges at the turn of last century, modern powders don't need such a large cartridge to be effective.

A 7mm-08 with a tight barrel twist rate allows you to use bullets from 100gn up to about 175gn, but they make 7mm bullets well over 200gn nowadays for custom barrels. The 100gn HP bullet is a good choice for smaller game, like foxes and rabbits (unless you want to eat your rabbits), and a 160gn bullet is good for larger game.

No, the subsonic is a very good choice for .22LR as it avoids the bullet having to transition down through the sound barrier. If you test enough ammunition you may well find a high-velocity round that maintains accuracy out to 100m or more. But in my experience HV ammo tends to fall apart by about 60-70m. That's about as far as I'd be shooting any live target with a .22LR anyway, but I do prefer to use a round that is accurate to longer ranges. The CCI Copper-22 for example, I find decently accurate to 50m, but at 100m it is hitting somewhere in a 600mm circle as the 1850fps 21gn bullet has completely lost all pretense of stability by about 60m. The CCI Std Velocity has proved very accurate in my Rugers maintaining about 30mm groups at 100m, easily sufficient for hunting.

My recommendation is to test every .22LR ammo you can find to determine which your rifle is most accurate with, and just use that for everything. I much prefer to be confident in putting a subsonic bullet into the brain or heart of a fox, than use a high-velocity bullet that might be off by an inch and blow off a jaw or nose.

A second advantage of staying subsonic is noise. Once you start breaking the sound barrier the noise really steps up. With sub-1100fps ammo you can lay in a paddock and shoot several hundred rounds with no discomfort to you or your neighbours. Going that extra 20fps or more you will find hearing protection to be much more comfortable. I would still recommend using hearing protection if you are shooting a lot of subsonic ammo though. I was shooting a .177" air-rifle and a .22LR yesterday and the sound was fairly similar between the two with subsonic ammunition. But one type of air-rifle pellet was going supersonic and a whole lot louder than the .22LR.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Nic » 15 Jan 2019, 10:32 pm

Mate - what I would do to have your knowledge! :O

I'll legit be coming back to these descriptions multiple times in future to reference what you've explained. Very helpful!

You've cleared up my misunderstanding regarding the ammo types for the 22lr too.


I am particularly interested now in the 7mm-08. Every time I start to discount it, it bobs up again and seems very appealing. You've suggested that using it for foxes (in that 100gr load) would not be overkill... This makes me think it could be a perfect all-rounder gun, as it is legal for all deer (being over 270) and can also kill fox without absolutely mutilating them.
Have you got a 7mm-08? If so, what do you hunt with it?

Although I would likely test it on a rabbit at some point, I dare say I'd mainly use it for fox and upwards - loading light for fox and higher for any other gain (proportionately). I feel that the cost of ammo would make it a bit heavy for rabbit haha!
In fact the cost of ammo may relegate it even from being a fox gun for me... Dunno... What do you think?


But as mentioned, I've just put the 22lr on layby and am only starting out rifle shooting. So although I'd love to be shooting deer, goat, hog et al tomorrow, chances are I'll be practising on the 22lr and the mate's 223, shooting foxes and rabbits for a while first.

I still have no idea how to use and adjust scopes and all the various 'stuff' that goes along with shooting. So still got a lot to learn before I go after big stuff I guess. I don't want to get too ahead of myself :O
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by bladeracer » 16 Jan 2019, 5:44 pm

When I started shooting there was no internet, I probably knew several magnitudes less than you already know :-)

7mm-08 is highly underrated I think. I can only guess people look at it alongside .308 and figure they're the same, but .308 is bigger so it must be better. .308 does have significant advantages, primarily in easy availability of ammunition and bullets.

If you are buying factory ammunition then 7mm-08 is likely to make a mess of a fox. But reduced loads work very well, although I'm not sure if I've taken a fox with the 7mm-08 as yet. I mainly use the .22LR and .204 for foxes. The 7mm-08 will punch a 100gn HP to about 3200fps which is very explosive on small game, but you can load the same bullet down to 1080fps and shoot it just like a very accurate .22LR for rabbits and foxes. It's like hitting a fox with three 40gn bullets simultaneously. But the bullet won't deform as such low speeds so you must place the bullet into the brain/cervical spine/heart for humane kills, the same as you would with a .22LR. As foxes will very often prop and watch you, such a shot is rarely difficult to make. There's really no reason to not mutilate foxes nowadays as there is no market for the fur anymore, and the foxes and crows will clean up the corpse quickly if it's torn up. Sometimes a too-neatly shot fox can lay in a paddock for several weeks before it gets noticed. Even with the .204 I still get an occasional skin to put in the freezer, despite the fox being totally eviscerated by the bullet. The .22LR is the better option though if you specifically want some pelts. I don't bother with scalps but they're worth $10 apiece here in Victoria.

I have a 7mm-08 which I consider my medium game rifle, but I'm yet to take any deer. I don't mind taking it out on an occasional fox patrol though. I wouldn't have any problem using it to hunt everything, using a variety of bullets and velocities to suit.

I subscribe via Email and Facebook to a lot of suppliers so I get messages about deals all the time. I buy bullets when they're cheap, even if I don't have anything to use them in at that time. I have well over 100kg of jacketed bullets on the (very strong) shelf. Brass might be as much as a buck a piece, but you can also make 7mm-08 out of very cheap once-fired .308 brass for under 20c apiece just by running it through your 7mm-08 sizing die and trimming it to length. If you don't run your loads at factory pressure levels the brass can last a very long time. Primers are about 8c apiece, or cheaper if you buy them in cartons of 5000. Powders are around $65 per 500gm bottle, but 4kg bottles at $375 are significantly cheaper. Bulk bullets might be under 40c apiece, better hunting or target bullets might be 70-90c apiece, but some high-level target bullets can be several dollars each. If you want to go really cheap then you can cast your own bullets as well. You'll get about 100 bullets out of a $10 kilogram of lead. Buying bulk components you can reload 7mm-08 for as little as 60c a shot. Casting your own bullets and using reduced loads of Trailboss powder you can easily halve that cost. But .22LR costs me about 11c a shot, cheaper than a lot of air-rifle pellets.
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Re: New shooter - new 22 - noob questions!

Post by Rod_outbak » 17 Jan 2019, 9:52 am

I almost always reload for my Tikka T3 Hunter 7mm-08 with 120Gn V-Max; reaches out and touches furry things a loooong way away, and fraggles them REALLY good.

I love both my .308's, but the 7mm-08 seems to be the one that any of my shooting visitors fall in love with.

In my load tests, I was getting 13.8mm groups at 100 yards with 5 rounds of 100gn Sierra HP projectiles; departing around 3100fps.
[Havent pokked anything furry with these loads yet; have to load a batch and share the love...]

My rifle has a 3-chamber Trentech brake on it, and that compensates for it being a fairly light rifle.
It wasnt overly pleasant to shoot before the brake was fitted, but I'm not shooting a reduced load.
I dont shoot on a range, and if I was doing much range time, I doubt this would be the rifle of choice anyway(more the light barrel than anything).
7mm is more difficult to source projectiles for in outback QLD, but nearly all the common ammo has also been through periods of low availability, so aside from keeping decent numbers of projectiles on hand, there isnt much else ever a problem. I also like the fact that if I ever get low on 7mm-08 cases, I can form them from either spare .308 or .243 brass that I have bucketloads of spare.
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