Procedure for brand new brass

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Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Blr243 » 12 Jan 2019, 12:21 pm

Hi. If purchasing unfired brand new brass is it a good idea to run it through a sizing die first or can I just prime Charge and seat ?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by in2anity » 12 Jan 2019, 12:24 pm

They will be to spec - just check the length is what you need
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 12 Jan 2019, 12:44 pm

There is nothing to stop you loading it and shooting. I run mine through a mandrel as the cases have way too much neck tension. This also irons out any little dents in the neck. The length can be checked but I don't trim them until they have been fired once.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by JimTom » 12 Jan 2019, 3:00 pm

Depending on the brand mate, but I generally champfer, deburr, and run them through the neck sizer.
Probably an overkill but that what I do.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by bladeracer » 12 Jan 2019, 4:36 pm

Blr243 wrote:Hi. If purchasing unfired brand new brass is it a good idea to run it through a sizing die first or can I just prime Charge and seat ?


I neck-size just for consistent neck tension, but I doubt you'd have any trouble simply seating bullets straight into them.
You should prep the brass before you start using it though.
Neck size then trim them all to consistent length.
Chamfer the case mouth and primer pocket.
I cut the primer pockets to consistent depth.
Deburr the case mouth and the flash hole.

If you neck-size you'll still have trim every few loads, if you FLS you might have to trim every time. I run my brass through the Trim Die every time anyway, even though most of them don't touch the cutter. I just like to know they're all exactly the same length every time. When you trim them you'll also have to chamfer and deburr the case mouth.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by in2anity » 12 Jan 2019, 6:34 pm

I’ve literally won a long range comp with brand-new untouched brass - before I loaded, I measured them and they were spot on to my requirements (51mm), so I loaded up without touching them at all. I’ve done this before with other rifle brass and I’ve always had a hunch that brand new brass is as good as it’ll get. Of course this may vary from brand to brand, but unless your shooting a bench or f-class rig (and you are versed in such styles) I feel any discrepancies would be basically immeasurable.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Rod_outbak » 12 Jan 2019, 7:14 pm

Depends on brand of brass.

I find the Lapua and Norma brass to be stuff you can use straight out of the box.
I find the OSA brass to be very close to as good, but I note the OSA brass seems to be close to max length from new, so might need checking case length.
I find Remington brass generally needs to be thrown in the bin, before you waste your time with it (my experience - YMMV).
I find Winchester brass to be okay, but I tend to find enough oddities to prefer to run it through a neck-sizer at least, but certainly check it all before loading.
I've found Sellier & Bellot brass to be varied enough to inspect it thoroughly, and usually FL size and trim before first use.
[I've only done a couple of small batches with S&B, but it was all over the place both times]
I've only used pistol cases in Starline, but I seem to recall it was pretty close to spec.
Cant recall if I've ever loaded Hornady brass from new, so not sure what it's like.

Always wise to check it to be sure, though.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 12 Jan 2019, 7:28 pm

Your a bit harsh on Remington brass Rod.

With Winchester, Remington or Federal brass I clean up a kernel of brass inside the case where the flash hole was punched. You don't have to do this prior to first shooting it or at all but it does make ignition from the primer more consistant. You don't need to do this with Norma or Lapua brass as they drill their flash holes.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Rod_outbak » 13 Jan 2019, 6:17 am

Yeah; my experience with Remington hasnt been very positive.

The new 7mm-08 brass had to be binned after the second reloading, as nearly 30% of the cases cant hold a primer in the pockets any more.
I know the Tikka (7mm-08) is a bit harder on the brass than either of my .308's, but even the re-sized (ho-hum) Federal brass is making it past 5 reloads before I'm getting significant numbers of failures (~5%).
I was warned by a couple of gun shops, that the Federal .308 brass (130gn HP loads that were being sold by the 500-round box a few years back) had a high failure rate, but even after re-sizing to 7mm-08, I'm still getting at least 5 reloads from it.

I have also reloaded Remington factory cartridges in the .243 and the .308, and found both needed a lot more remedial work, than nearly any other other brand of brass that I use.

Not worth the time to prep it; in my opinion, and I wont recommend it to anyone to buy as unprimed brass.

My experience; I hope others dont enjoy same..
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Blr243 » 13 Jan 2019, 7:39 am

Thanks for the replies. It helps me make the right decision for myself.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Jan 2019, 7:42 am

I only use ADI, out of the bag, quick inspection and load them up, never had a problem.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by JimTom » 13 Jan 2019, 8:44 am

Gaznazdiak wrote:I only use ADI, out of the bag, quick inspection and load them up, never had a problem.


Can’t go wrong with ADI mate. I use it in my .308. Never had a problem.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 13 Jan 2019, 11:18 am

I neck size new brass...for the same reasons as SCJ-neck tension & dents in necks.

I also uniform primer pockets & deburr the flash holes first up...add a little chamfer to the case mouth & load up.

I also check the length but i dont trim until after theyve been fired...sometimes (providing length is ok) i dont trim till 2 firings.


SCJ429...
Its interesting you say its not necessary to deburr flash holes in lap or norma brass.

I have 3x100 lots of Norma, & i removed a substantial amount of brass with the flashole deburr tool...was a bit of work there actually :unknown: :)

I had heard that only Nosler brass was fully prepped out of the box... :unknown:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 12:29 pm

That is interesting Stix, both Norma and Lapua drill their flash hole. I have not found that little kernel on any Norma brass but I have only used Norma for Weatherby cases, 222 and 300 Win Mag. The Win Mag brass is headstamped Lapua but contracted out to Norma.

I also heard that Noslers brass is made by Norma, at least some of it. Some may be also made by RWS. What caliber was the Norma brass that you had to prep?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 13 Jan 2019, 2:08 pm

I will always run mine through a full lenght die to start with to avoid any chambering issues. Nothing worse that been on the farm go to chamber and the bolt wont close.

Once they have been fire formed i neck size.

Depends on the manufacturer most is spot on adi,remington,lapua unless its winchester in that case i full length size the bag in the bin.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2019, 4:30 pm

SCJ429 wrote:That is interesting Stix, both Norma and Lapua drill their flash hole. I have not found that little kernel on any Norma brass but I have only used Norma for Weatherby cases, 222 and 300 Win Mag. The Win Mag brass is headstamped Lapua but contracted out to Norma.

I also heard that Noslers brass is made by Norma, at least some of it. Some may be also made by RWS. What caliber was the Norma brass that you had to prep?


Drilling a hole doesn't obviate the need to deburr it.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Jan 2019, 8:08 pm

When running the K&M tool in Lapua and Norma cases I have never had it catch on any burrs. I spoke to my gunsmith about this and he told me they were drilled. He found that you only occasionally find a little burr. I compare this with Remington or Federal where you always find a burr and often they are quite large.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 13 Jan 2019, 8:10 pm

I always run mine threw a mandrel or at least neck size and shoot the cases to fireform with a weak load before doing the prep work :drinks:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 13 Jan 2019, 8:23 pm

SCJ...

I have Norma in 7-08 that i have shelved for the moment....however i removed a reasonable amount from those flasholes

But i run 2x100 batches (well 4x50 actislly) of norma for the extend-a-rabbit as i now like to calll it--the 204....which i removed a good amount of brass from also...

I also heard nosler brass is fully prepped norma brass scj.

I actually found very little difference in the brass i removed from the 204 norma cases as compared with remington brass in 22-250... :unknown:

Hey can i ask you & marksman--this mandrel caper--how does it differ from neck sizing with the normal redding neck die, & why do that instead of neck sizing...???

I have a mandrel in .22 & 7mm that i purchased for meck turning, but ive shelved all the gear until i get myself a custom chamber thats worth the effort of turning.

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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 3:35 pm

Stix the mandrels I use are 21st century and K&M, the K&M I use with the neck turner, they are the exact size of the projectile to smooth and round out the necks, as has been said some new cases come a bit tighter than needed causing bent/crooked necks when the projectile is seated and the expander buttons can vary greatly in size's so you may get the same problem with neck tension being tighter than needed
its also a very good idea to inside champfer the necks for smooth bullet seating
IMHO if a bullet seats smoothly it will exit smoothly, it's what I think is important anyway :drinks:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 14 Jan 2019, 3:54 pm

So marksman, does that mean for neck sizing you use the mandrel instead...?

Sorry if im asking annoying & stupid questions or missing somthing, im just trying to ascertain when you would use a mandrel vs neck die & why...?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2019, 5:44 pm

The reason I use the mandrel for new cases is because they have too much tension and you are trying to reduce it. The mandrel also smooths out any small dents. The new cases are very grabby so I would use some graphite powder to help lube the bullet. I would not use a mandrel after this but neck size with bushing dies or collet dies. I try not to use a die with an expander button. The buttons seem to pull the neck crocked and you end up with runout.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 6:26 pm

Stix wrote:So marksman, does that mean for neck sizing you use the mandrel instead...?

Sorry if im asking annoying & stupid questions or missing somthing, im just trying to ascertain when you would use a mandrel vs neck die & why...?


on the new cases yes I would prefer to use the mandrel but if you dont have a mandrel I would neck size with a die that has an expander button so you round off the necks, push deformities to the outside of the neck and make them all consistent
if you have more neck tension than needed you can bend the neck when seating a projectile, you see this when checking that your cases have no runout on a runout gauge before seating the bullet then after seating you may see runout caused by seating the bullet with more tension than is needed but also as SCJ429 said if using a die with an expander button you can pull the neck crooked so its better to use a bushing die or collet die to neck size, but if you only have the expander button die do not use the lock ring to lock the die in place, that is why these dies are called wobble dies
if you use a runout gauge you can check how much runout you get if any at all, the purpose of checking is to find where your necks are getting the runout
I hope this explains it for you :drinks:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2019, 7:25 pm

If you were using a die with an expander button, would you full length size the brass or run it through just enough for the button to travel through the neck?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 14 Jan 2019, 9:48 pm

Thanks guys...
Yes that explains it...

So, i do have problems with neck tension...big problems & i know it.

The reason i neck size new brass is for the same reasons you guys say, but i haven't thought about using the mandrel i have, from now on i will (i have the K&M ones).

Ive been told not to leave the lock ring loose on the neck die, but,... i do it anyway, because it seems obvious to me that it will bend the neck...so im glad you guys have told me im doing the right thing there... :thumbsup:

I know i have excessive neck tension on my 22 expander ball that was in my neck die (Redding 22-250)--its so bad i used to absolutely destroy projectiles if i had to pull them (using the grip-n-pull) to the point they cant be used for even plinking trailboss loads again... :crazy:
So i swapped it out for the one in the FL die, & although its not as bad, i still get the feeling there is excessive tension on some necks, however i can pull the bullets easy enough without great deformation now ive changed them out (i basically only use that one shaft & ball now between the Neck & FL die, although i hardly ever FL size).
.
The thing i dont get, is that ive measured the expander balls & they are both the same, & i lube all necks with graphite so i dont know why i get such bad tension/& different tension in the necks between the different balls. :unknown:

Keep in mind, i dont have a run-out gauge for measuring such, nor do i have a ball micrometer to measure neck thickness (i have the gear for turning but dont neck turn) so i dont bother measuring neck tension as such--but i can feel it when i seat--i dont care what anyone says, i can feel the different tension clear as day, & sometimes (rarely) but sometimes i can feel it while neck sizing--although that is hard, because as you say & the thing i dont like about these neck dies is they are so grabby...sometimes i even visually check a case for decent lube & the ball still grabs bad...ggrrrr.. :unknown: .!!

I set the neck die so that i can see the ring of graphite sit right at the shoulder--so with a graphite lubed neck, once run through the die it pushes the graphite down the outside--i set the dies so this ring of graphite is basically at the junction of neck & shoulder...i figure that covers all bases-a shallow seated & a deep seated bullet, while not (hopefully :unknown: ) not deforming the shoulder enough to create obscure tension in the adjacent neck. :unknown:

So Is this right...? :unknown:

Or better still, should i just buy a different type of die...?
My mind & understanding tells me bushing dies would be the go, but are they worth it for factory chambers...? i figured not, hence why ive shelved & not used all the neck turning gear...

Should i try the lee collet dies ?(i have no idea how they work but have gathered from posts on here they may the cheap groovy thing to use... :unknown: )

Anyway, thanks agian for the explanation guys...it is appreciated.. :drinks: .sorry if ive waffled on a bit, im just trying to give as much info as i can...

(im so frustrated lately, ive 2x 22-250's i cant get to shoot...if i had service when i was away shooting last week i would have sold my brand new Sako 22-250 varmint for a grand--tensioned & checked everything up, no wind, first 2 shots same hole... :clap: :thumbsup: took it straight out in a paddock & blew one bunny in half at 250 yds (i executed a good shot but thats a big miss :unknown: ) then missed the next 5 completely... :wtf: ...next morning tried it on paper again & it was spraying 3 inches or more at 150 yds FFS... :unknown: i wanted to kill & disfigure this inanimate object... :evil: )
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2019, 10:58 pm

Lots of interesting things you note in your post, you say you can feel extra neck tension when you seat the bullet, that is great, most people don't notice this. Put that case aside, it will ruin you group. The biggest contributor to poor accuracy in loading is in consistant neck tension. When it comes to the amount, the least you can get away with is the best option. Obviously with hunting rounds you need a bit more because they get knocked around a little more.

As Marksman said the reason to measure runout through the the resizing process is to identify what is causing it. They come out of your chamber straight. That way you can change or eliminate this process that caused the runout. Collet dies work well because they are easy on the brass and you can adjust the neck tension. You need to be gentle with these dies and there are some good instructions online regarding their use.

Try just putting just a bit of tension onto a 22/250 case without resizing it. I reloaded some cases for a 22/250 12 times only resizing 1/3 of the neck. It shot really well but started to get hard to chamber. I used a small body die to push the shoulder back and then continued to only neck size until I had loose primer pockets. Not a single split neck and only trimmed the brass once over around 20 firings. Stick with it, the mucking around is half the fun when you stop pulling you hair out. I nearly threw my chrono away on the weekend after firing 20 shots from a big bore and only recording three of them. Sore shoulder and not much data to show for it.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 11:17 pm

if your not neck turning I would recommend the lee collet die
but if you start turning necks it has to be a bushing die

honestly Stix I would go the collet die, I hope this may help :drinks:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... llet-dies/
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 18 Jan 2019, 11:48 am

If one already has a standard FL die, is it worth buying just the collet die on its own, or in a set...?
It seems they have 2 sets available...
A 2 die set with collet & seater...
& a 4 die set with collet, seater, FL & crimp die...
Is it also worth getting the crimp die to experiment with...?
Or just collet die alone...?

(They done have collet die alone in stock--damit...!!)
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by bigfellascott » 18 Jan 2019, 11:55 am

Blr243 wrote:Hi. If purchasing unfired brand new brass is it a good idea to run it through a sizing die first or can I just prime Charge and seat ?


Stuff and shoot! :thumbsup:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 18 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

Stix wrote:If one already has a standard FL die, is it worth buying just the collet die on its own, or in a set...?
It seems they have 2 sets available...
A 2 die set with collet & seater...
& a 4 die set with collet, seater, FL & crimp die...
Is it also worth getting the crimp die to experiment with...?
Or just collet die alone...?

(They done have collet die alone in stock--damit...!!)


I usually buy the 4 die set but if I already had a fld I would think about going the other way
also I do believe in using the crimp die (a light crimp) for cases that I use the collet die, especially if there is a big jump to the lands for the projectile
when crimping I do it so you can only just see the crimp
I also believe that when not neck turning to use a lee collet die, a wilson seater and a light crimp for very consistent reloads, for runout under 1 thou
it's what I have found works anyway and I've bought a heap of sh!t over the years to try and get the most out of my reloads
it will always still come down to (famous last words) bullets, barrels and bumnuts :drinks:
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