And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by brett1868 » 13 Mar 2019, 9:36 pm

Wasn't going to advertise this but I'll fill you in on my experience over Christmas.

I have an estranged relative who I've had no contact with since he physically assaulted my then 3yr old son back in 2008, I'll call him "Bob" for the purpose of this post. Around October last year a relative told me that "Bob" was wanting my number as he was trying to keep me out of gaol, relative refused and called me. We both scratched our heads and dismissed it as the ravings of an idiot. On the 12th of December I received a threatening text message from "Bob", I knew who it was based on the content. I thought wtf??? nothing in 10yrs and the first contact is a threat.

The first instinct was to just ignore it and hope nothing further came of it but after further consideration I decided to report it to the Police. There were 2 compelling reasons to report it, 1. I am legally obliged under the crimes act to report any threat involving the use of a firearm and 2. Having personally known 2 people that lost their marbles and killed multiple people in the last 12 months I wanted something on the record in the event Bob went postal.
On advice from a solicitor I attended Riverstone Police and proceeded to make a complaint, I asked multiple times for a senior officer and was denied this request. After a discussion with the constable I was informed that if I proceeded with the complaint that my firearms would be seized for 28 days. I was due to depart the next day on a 10 day hunting trip with my son so I withdrew the complaint and said that I would revisit the matter on my return. I departed the station believing the matter resolved.

Imagine my surprise at 10am the next morning when the Police roll up on my door step wanting my firearms.....After a bit of heated back and forth I agreed to co-operate as there was no way to win. I asked if they had a truck, they asked why, I showed them what I have, they agreed to come back in a couple hours with a van and a 3rd officer. It took 3 officers, a big ass van, 2 cars and 7 hours to catalogue and load my items. I was fortunate that the 3 officers were quite understanding of the situation and allowed me to box and pack things how I wanted so as to prevent any damage. They also took the opportunity to do a full audit, we were surprised at just how inaccurate their records were. I had several firearms which they had no record of despite owning them for a few years or more. Being an anal retentive type I keep immaculate records and for each undocumented firearm I produced its registration.

Once the firearms were loaded the subject switched to ammunition, I gave them 2 choices they could load the locked cases or they could go to the station and grab 10 more guys and start counting individual rounds. At the time I had just over 800kg of loaded ammo so they took option 1 :) While all this was going on I had a call from the inspector as I had raised concerns about security at the station, he informed me that they had allocated a whole room to me and only 2 people had access to it and every care would be taken to look after my items. At the finish the officer took my license and large caliber permit into his possession. I should mention that the officers acted professionally at all times and took into account that I was the "victim" in this matter.

That evening I attended the station and filed the complaint that I had withdrawn the day before as I figured I may as well considering the worse has already happened. "Bob" got a nasty knock on the door the next morning and had his firearms seized along with being questioned about the assault 10yrs prior along with the current threatening text message. I cannot comment further on his situation as the matter is before the courts.

A couple days passed and I arranged a meeting with the deputy chief inspector in charge of the region, as I walked into the interview room a comment was made about my massive "arsenal". I mentioned that Zombies were a problem in the Pilliga Scrub and wanted to be prepared, he cracked up laughing and we had a great chat about guns in general for a couple hours. He had gone to the trouble of taking photos of the room showing how they had stored my items and I was more relaxed about the situation. I was advised to write a letter to the regional commander outlining the situation and why I should have my license / firearms returned. I promptly wrote and submitted the letter and on day 28 I was told my firearms could be picked up from the station, they offered to deliver but I wanted to check stuff as it came out of the lockup. I took the boy with me, got some funny looks from the officers as they handed pistols to the boy so he could check and clear them. I offered to produce his permits but they didn't seem to worry about it. I think every 2nd cop in the station came over to speak to me at some stage, they were all either collectors or shooters :)

I was unlucky that this occurred but fortunately had a bunch of good natured professional coppers that understood I was the victim in this. My gear was seized under section 82 & 83 of the LEPRA Act part 6.

I believe that you were screwed over royally by the police in this instance as the decision to suspend your license is discretionary and I doubt based on what you said they can prove the decision justified as they didn't follow the "Domestic and Family Violence Standard Operating Procedures 2018". My license remained "Valid" during the 28 days and even had a couple Cat H PTA's turn up in the mail. One thing they didn't do was to seize my ammunition dealers permit, probably didn't show up on their checks as its issued in my company name.

If you feel like a chat then drop me a line :)

It's a pain, it's stressful but there's not much you could have done to avoid it. Be happy that you obeyed the law and sleep easy, this will be over in due time.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Mar 2019, 10:02 pm

On the ace of the suspension notice, your licence has been suspended, your firearms have been seized.
Reading the suspension notice (2nd photo_ the suspension expiry date is stated as "until lifted by NSW Firearms Registry".
What is that about and how does that fit into the 28 day narrative?
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by brett1868 » 13 Mar 2019, 10:11 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:On the ace of the suspension notice, your licence has been suspended, your firearms have been seized.
Reading the suspension notice (2nd photo_ the suspension expiry date is stated as "until lifted by NSW Firearms Registry".
What is that about and how does that fit into the 28 day narrative?


I read that as well and what I was told in my case was that I could apply to have the seizure lifted earlier then 28 days and maybe that's why it's there. On the negative side of that he'll need to make a case to the commissioner as to why his license should be reinstated and that's cause for concern but not the end of the world. I'm still puzzled as to why they suspended it as that's a serious step for them to take...
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Stix » 13 Mar 2019, 10:22 pm

Can a formal letter asking "why the suspension" be written to the commisioner...?

Our society is "supposed" to run under the principle of common law as i understand it...so surely when this hsppens to the common man he is entitled to a reasonable & truthful answer (s) from the governing &/or judicial body... :unknown:

Id be asking the lawyer about the suspension...then ask another one...

Understanding should run both ways...!!
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by deye243 » 13 Mar 2019, 10:37 pm

This does not surprise me at all as all states have s**t in place as too when you get a firearms licence you atomaticly forfeit your rights as an Australian citizen.
Just look at Vic you have a licence and all the cops have to do is knock on your door and say I suspect you have an unlicensed or regoed firearm and they can serch your home sheds the lot and NO warrant.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Download » 13 Mar 2019, 10:38 pm

brett1868 wrote:Wasn't going to advertise this but I'll fill you in on my experience over Christmas.

I have an estranged relative who I've had no contact with since he physically assaulted my then 3yr old son back in 2008, I'll call him "Bob" for the purpose of this post. Around October last year a relative told me that "Bob" was wanting my number as he was trying to keep me out of gaol, relative refused and called me. We both scratched our heads and dismissed it as the ravings of an idiot. On the 12th of December I received a threatening text message from "Bob", I knew who it was based on the content. I thought wtf??? nothing in 10yrs and the first contact is a threat.

The first instinct was to just ignore it and hope nothing further came of it but after further consideration I decided to report it to the Police. There were 2 compelling reasons to report it, 1. I am legally obliged under the crimes act to report any threat involving the use of a firearm and 2. Having personally known 2 people that lost their marbles and killed multiple people in the last 12 months I wanted something on the record in the event Bob went postal.
On advice from a solicitor I attended Riverstone Police and proceeded to make a complaint, I asked multiple times for a senior officer and was denied this request. After a discussion with the constable I was informed that if I proceeded with the complaint that my firearms would be seized for 28 days. I was due to depart the next day on a 10 day hunting trip with my son so I withdrew the complaint and said that I would revisit the matter on my return. I departed the station believing the matter resolved.

Imagine my surprise at 10am the next morning when the Police roll up on my door step wanting my firearms.....After a bit of heated back and forth I agreed to co-operate as there was no way to win. I asked if they had a truck, they asked why, I showed them what I have, they agreed to come back in a couple hours with a van and a 3rd officer. It took 3 officers, a big ass van, 2 cars and 7 hours to catalogue and load my items. I was fortunate that the 3 officers were quite understanding of the situation and allowed me to box and pack things how I wanted so as to prevent any damage. They also took the opportunity to do a full audit, we were surprised at just how inaccurate their records were. I had several firearms which they had no record of despite owning them for a few years or more. Being an anal retentive type I keep immaculate records and for each undocumented firearm I produced its registration.

Once the firearms were loaded the subject switched to ammunition, I gave them 2 choices they could load the locked cases or they could go to the station and grab 10 more guys and start counting individual rounds. At the time I had just over 800kg of loaded ammo so they took option 1 :) While all this was going on I had a call from the inspector as I had raised concerns about security at the station, he informed me that they had allocated a whole room to me and only 2 people had access to it and every care would be taken to look after my items. At the finish the officer took my license and large caliber permit into his possession. I should mention that the officers acted professionally at all times and took into account that I was the "victim" in this matter.

That evening I attended the station and filed the complaint that I had withdrawn the day before as I figured I may as well considering the worse has already happened. "Bob" got a nasty knock on the door the next morning and had his firearms seized along with being questioned about the assault 10yrs prior along with the current threatening text message. I cannot comment further on his situation as the matter is before the courts.

A couple days passed and I arranged a meeting with the deputy chief inspector in charge of the region, as I walked into the interview room a comment was made about my massive "arsenal". I mentioned that Zombies were a problem in the Pilliga Scrub and wanted to be prepared, he cracked up laughing and we had a great chat about guns in general for a couple hours. He had gone to the trouble of taking photos of the room showing how they had stored my items and I was more relaxed about the situation. I was advised to write a letter to the regional commander outlining the situation and why I should have my license / firearms returned. I promptly wrote and submitted the letter and on day 28 I was told my firearms could be picked up from the station, they offered to deliver but I wanted to check stuff as it came out of the lockup. I took the boy with me, got some funny looks from the officers as they handed pistols to the boy so he could check and clear them. I offered to produce his permits but they didn't seem to worry about it. I think every 2nd cop in the station came over to speak to me at some stage, they were all either collectors or shooters :)

I was unlucky that this occurred but fortunately had a bunch of good natured professional coppers that understood I was the victim in this. My gear was seized under section 82 & 83 of the LEPRA Act part 6.

I believe that you were screwed over royally by the police in this instance as the decision to suspend your license is discretionary and I doubt based on what you said they can prove the decision justified as they didn't follow the "Domestic and Family Violence Standard Operating Procedures 2018". My license remained "Valid" during the 28 days and even had a couple Cat H PTA's turn up in the mail. One thing they didn't do was to seize my ammunition dealers permit, probably didn't show up on their checks as its issued in my company name.

If you feel like a chat then drop me a line :)

It's a pain, it's stressful but there's not much you could have done to avoid it. Be happy that you obeyed the law and sleep easy, this will be over in due time.

Ah, so when the Greens kick up a fuss about how "someone" has x number of firearms in a postcode, we know who they're talking about.

Still, this f***s me off. It's ridiculous that you report a crime against you and you get your guns taken.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by brett1868 » 13 Mar 2019, 10:51 pm

Ah, so when the Greens kick up a fuss about how "someone" has x number of firearms in a postcode, we know who they're talking about.

Still, this f***s me off. It's ridiculous that you report a crime against you and you get your guns taken.


I have Cat A, B, G & H + High Cal - The G is "Collectors" and excludes me from the stats on firearms in the community used by GCA. If you want to hide the number of firearms you have from the anti's then get a collectors license :)

The logic of the police is that they don't want you as the victim to take matters into your own hands so all parties lose their firearms. In my case it was a blood relative so it's a clear case of domestic violence even if i'd had no contact in 10yrs and no idea of where he lived. I have no idea how they justified seizing 2freeq's firearms AND suspending his license as it doesn't fit the SOP they have on domestic violence. He's not related, there's been no physical confrontation and no charges laid. I'd be seeking a meeting with the regional commander to get an explanation as to how they can justify "Not in the public interest" when no confrontation has taken place.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by wanneroo » 14 Mar 2019, 12:39 am

I'd get a better solicitor and hit the cops hard back in the face with it.

I'd also hit back hard on the child protection authorities on how this individual has your information.

I'd also contact your state representative in government over this. I'd find their office and try to talk to them directly.

Next after exhausting all those avenues I'd go right to the media and make more noise.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Kel » 14 Mar 2019, 4:39 am

Wow talk about shooting the messenger. I wonder if that was an overzealous application of the the discretionary options available under the law or a mandated requirement to seize (which is clearly unfair under the circumstances you describe). If a warrant is required I would hope that the signatory requires some sound /justifiable reasoning as to why the firearms should be seized. In hindsight perhaps it would have been wise to request a warrant and seek legal advice.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Jon79 » 14 Mar 2019, 10:13 am

When my daughter did her firearms safety course at the local gun shop they mentioned that if you ever think anything has happened where the cops could come knocking that the best thing to do is bring your guns straight down to the shop for storage, Apparently the guns can be stored there instead of being seized by the police
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Patriot » 14 Mar 2019, 12:42 pm

The fact that private property can be seized, and the owner denied due process is astonishing. The fact that Australian citizens have no problem with this is even more astounding.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by sungazer » 14 Mar 2019, 3:37 pm

They can be stored at a LGS but check on the fees for doing so. They range from Free from good bloke type stores to very quickly being more than the guns are worth.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Mar 2019, 4:35 pm

Not sure if op can really be bothered seeking legal etc now - 28 days will pass and hopefully all returns are done without further issue...it’s clearly been a harrowing experience already and is probably wondering now if the juice will be worth the squeeze in relation to seeking further legal...
That being said - perhaps a few of us should contact the below and call them out on situations like the one that has transpired here? I don’t want to bring anymore focus on the op tho - just looking to help if possible ?
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by southeast varmiter » 14 Mar 2019, 5:23 pm

Glad it worked out. But you got played. What the police did was illegal.
Unless a warrant is issued, they cannot sieze guns, second the threat of leaving police behind while they went off to get a warrant is also illegal.
Unless you were cautioned and placed under arrest, you are free to pack your guns in a car and drive off to gun store for storage.
Police cannot detain you without placing you under arrest.
You have a case there.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Sonnyjim » 16 Mar 2019, 5:14 am

Kumaabear wrote:I would have been taking that refusal offer and contacting a lawyer immediately, right in front of said 3 remaining police.

There is no guarantee that the promise of returning with a warrant would have even happened, police often have no idea what the law is in such niche areas but you would expect that the guy signing warrants may well know whats allowed.

I personally think us Australians are far too quick to forfeit our rights in the face of a polite police requests and veiled threats and the police know and often count on it.

If they were coming there to seize the firearms then they should have brought a warrant, if they don't have one with them when they rock up either they are incompetent or they were not sure if a warrant would be granted and were happy to try and intimidate you into surrendering your property, perhaps both.

I would not be surprised if they have been logged in the system as voluntarily surrendered or something along those lines rather than seized for X reason.

Rocking up without a warrant to seize something, then having to "go get one" just makes no sense whatsoever.

What a joke


mate i think your absolutely spot on here, looks like they weren't sure they'd get a warrant and turned on the intimidation. After reading this i would always as politely and respectfully as possible refuse until a warrant is placed. Surely it cannot be standard practice as this would make a huge disinterest for firearm owner to make formal complaints about legal matters. if this is the standard practice i believe it needs to change.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Download » 16 Mar 2019, 10:19 am

southeast varmiter wrote:Glad it worked out. But you got played. What the police did was illegal.
Unless a warrant is issued, they cannot sieze guns, second the threat of leaving police behind while they went off to get a warrant is also illegal.
Unless you were cautioned and placed under arrest, you are free to pack your guns in a car and drive off to gun store for storage.
Police cannot detain you without placing you under arrest.
You have a case there.

That's not true, most states give wide reaching powers to police to seize firearms.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 16 Mar 2019, 10:27 am

s**t this is sad mate. Hopefully in 28 days you get your license and guns back. But as others have said 2 things

How did he get your number, gross inaction of privacy.

And why did they suspend your license, and does that mean you have to reapply to get it back.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Nigel » 16 Mar 2019, 10:56 am

brett1868 wrote:My gear was seized under section 82 & 83 of the LEPRA Act part 6.


I just had a look and this part of the Law Enforcement (Powers and Responsibilities) Act 2002 (NSW).

The important lessons here are:

1) Do not invite the police to enter your premises

Section 82 and 83 cover entry into premises in situations where the police have domestic violence related suspicions. Section 82 covers entry by invitation and section 83 covers entry under warrant. The threshold tests for section 83 to apply are stricter than section 82. To get the warrant they need to have a reasonable suspicion that it is necessary to enter the premises to prevent an act of domestic violence. I can't understand how this test would have been passed in either of these cases.
Once the police enter your premises pursuant to either of these sections, they are required by section 85 to seize all firearms in the premises.

2) If you report threats of domestic violence to the police, assume that any firearms in your home will be seized

In 2Freeq's case, if the police based their seizure on section 82, they may have acted improperly. Based on the facts reported, the violence threatened would be unlikely to fit within the definition of 'domestic violence' due to fact that there was no 'domestic relationship' between the threatener and the victim of the threat.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Empie » 16 Mar 2019, 11:04 am

And who pays for this “service” for the police to collect, store, & return the firearms? The firearms owners of course as a component of their licence application & renewal fees while those who start these fiascos suffers no cost!
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Mar 2019, 11:05 am

^ exactly - and exactly the problem as who here who has now read this thread - on this forum, is going to report anything knowing what the implications might be?
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by southeast varmiter » 16 Mar 2019, 5:35 pm

You are absolutely incorrect. That’s why this situation ended the way it did.

Download wrote:
southeast varmiter wrote:Glad it worked out. But you got played. What the police did was illegal.
Unless a warrant is issued, they cannot sieze guns, second the threat of leaving police behind while they went off to get a warrant is also illegal.
Unless you were cautioned and placed under arrest, you are free to pack your guns in a car and drive off to gun store for storage.
Police cannot detain you without placing you under arrest.
You have a case there.

That's not true, most states give wide reaching powers to police to seize firearms.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 17 Mar 2019, 8:03 am

Well NSW just going to pass laws for a 2 year trial,
where if you have a drug conviction in the last 10 years cops do not need a warrant to search your house
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by JSS » 17 Mar 2019, 8:52 am

Ziad wrote:Well NSW just going to pass laws for a 2 year trial,
where if you have a drug conviction in the last 10 years cops do not need a warrant to search your house


I find it pretty hard to believe that one will get passed, not even for the trail period. It sounds like a bit of "tough on crime" pre election BS.
It's far too open to abuse and misuse to ever get through.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Gaznazdiak » 17 Mar 2019, 9:24 am

JSS wrote:
Ziad wrote:Well NSW just going to pass laws for a 2 year trial,
where if you have a drug conviction in the last 10 years cops do not need a warrant to search your house


I find it pretty hard to believe that one will get passed, not even for the trail period. It sounds like a bit of "tough on crime" pre election BS.
It's far too open to abuse and misuse to ever get through.



The appearance regulations had no trouble getting through, if they can get bullsh!t like that to stand up, who knows what they can get away with?
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by JSS » 17 Mar 2019, 11:30 am

Gaznazdiak wrote:
JSS wrote:
Ziad wrote:Well NSW just going to pass laws for a 2 year trial,
where if you have a drug conviction in the last 10 years cops do not need a warrant to search your house


I find it pretty hard to believe that one will get passed, not even for the trail period. It sounds like a bit of "tough on crime" pre election BS.
It's far too open to abuse and misuse to ever get through.



The appearance regulations had no trouble getting through, if they can get bullsh!t like that to stand up, who knows what they can get away with?


Yes but that applies to those nasty evil guns. This new one is infringing on the rights of those poor innocent helpless druggies.

It will also be a stepping stone to open the gate, if the drug one gets passed, it will be followed by any crime in the past 10 years, then it will be any infringement at all, and last of all the need for a warrant being no longer needed at all. Checkmate we're all farked!!
It may sound like i have my tin foil hat on but that's the way it works, they use baby steps to get to their end game.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Gaznazdiak » 17 Mar 2019, 12:12 pm

No foil hat needed to have a healthy mistrust of political knee-jerkers JSS.

That's exactly how they look at things.

I heard an interview last night with an NZ anti-gun panic merchant calling for a total ban on all guns from civilian hands. His claim that the only thing guns are good for is killing people is a perfect example of how hyperbolic they will get to push their agenda.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Patriot » 17 Mar 2019, 1:33 pm

Ziad wrote:Well NSW just going to pass laws for a 2 year trial,
where if you have a drug conviction in the last 10 years cops do not need a warrant to search your house


It’s not the elected officials who come up with this stuff. It is the unelected public officials, in this case the police. The police advise the the minister on what they want, and what they want is total control of the citizenry. Right now the NZ police will be advising the government over there that ordinary citizens should not have access to semi auto firearms, but will the police be willing to give up their own hoarde of these guns? Hell no, they’re probably saying we need more of them and more coppers trained in there use. It’s all about control.
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 17 Mar 2019, 1:48 pm

Funny you say that, vic police are getting a few hundred semi auto rifles for specially trained general duty cops.

I think nothing looks more cooler than police with ak47 or m5 on every intersection
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Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by 2freeq » 17 Mar 2019, 7:35 pm

to answer the question about how he got my contact info, It was given to him as part of a Family and Community Services decision my wife and I are to supervise contact between him and his kids. So he needs to contact me if he is unable to attend and i need to contact him to make sure he is going to show up so we dont have a no show. It has been like this for a couple of years now and there hasnt been a problem until he started on the heavy drugs again.

Because i am the carer of his kids is the reason it falls under the "domestic" label because its form of extended family. i tried to question if this was a personal violence matter but it's not.

I had no idea they were seizing my guns when i invited the cops into my home, Refusing to comply would be a wasted effort if they are going to get a warrant and take them anyway. By actually complying and listening to them, i ended up having the licensing officers personally thanking me for not giving them a hard time and hopefully this favour is returned when i apply to get my guns back and they dont give me a hard time.

I was informed by a solicitor this is standard practice in NSW and the cops acted well within their rights. He also advised me to learn from this and tell them nothing in the future which i believe is the lesson to be learnt here.
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Posts: 123
New South Wales

Re: And just like that all my guns were seized by police

Post by rossfrb » 17 Mar 2019, 8:28 pm

From https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/as ... olence.pdf
Page 46 under section "Searching for and seizing firearms and other weapons" paragraph 3
"Regardless of whether the firearm was used or not in the act of a domestic violence offence, police must seize any firearms that either party involved in the incident has access to. "

Paragraph 1 includes "...If a domestic violence offence is being, may have recently been committed or is imminent" So it may be that the police were following SOP.
rossfrb
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New South Wales

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