Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

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Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 13 Mar 2019, 9:36 pm

I've got a 6-18×40 on my 308, but now I'm thinking I'd like to set it up a bit more for fly, so I'm wondering what scope size would be necessary for seeing the 308 holes at 500?

I think almost every gun on the line had a nightforce on it when i went to my 1st fly shoot a couple of weeks ago. Is really high magnification needed for a 308 or would you expect to see the holes at 500m with a decent 25power scope if the weather conditions are good?
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 14 Mar 2019, 2:11 pm

Well, I have competed in quite a number of 500m Fly Shoots over the years and at one stage every shoot in NSW for a few years until medical problems got far worse and stopped me from traveling. When I was competing I was mostly in the top quarter of competitors and loved every second of getting away for a weekend shooting Fly. That included competing not only 500m but also 300m Centrefire and 200 Yard Rimfire. The friendship of the top shooters in Australia was great as were the stories afterwards of what did or didn't go right or wrong over the weekend.

The collection of Fly Patches and Trophies is now gathering dust. What a great feeling to come out on top or near to it for the day with the best scoring target and smallest group but the most pleasure is earning a Fly Patch from every competition entered.

If you have been to one then you will know it's not easy by any means. The colour of the target and the fly is a challenge to see clearly at the best of times yet alone with any sort of mirage where it becomes an educated guess as the mirage gets worse.

In the years I competed the most common scope used was the Nightforce 12-42 BR Target and still probably the majority of those used unless you have the dollars to upgrade to the newer competition versions. Those that used anything less in magnification were pushing it uphill and most times couldn't see their bullet holes unless they used a Spotting Scope or asked someone else to check their target.

I have seen only a few competitors using a 308 Target Rifle and even though they were pretty good shooters they didn't end up scoring very well against the rest of the pack. In my view not a very competitive calibre for Fly.

If you want to see holes and for that matter the fly at 500 you will need something a lot more magnification than 25x power.

Look at the scopes used during a Fly Shoot and politely ask some shooters to have a look through their scope and you will get a lot better idea of what they are seeing.

I started with a Nightforce BR 12-42x Scope but it wasn't long before I upgraded that to a March 8-80x on my main rifle but also have a March 5-50x and a March 10-60x on others. Yes, bloody expensive but that is what I wanted at the time to stay with the top crew. The calibre I use is 6.5x47 Lapua and it was bloody hard to see bullet holes for even half the day in warmer weather. The small groups I shot near 1.00" were mainly in the cooler morning details before the mirage got going.

Whatever you use, have fun (rule #10) and enjoy the competition.

I haven't been on this site for some time as I have been away and only here today collecting some gear before upcoming surgery so I may not be back for some time. I can't find my Login Password to use on another computer, maybe just missing looking it up in the right spot but that's what happens when you aren't quite focused.

Best of luck.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 14 Mar 2019, 2:56 pm

BTW....

Before I head off...

If you want to keep up to date, ask questions etc about 500m Fly get onto the 500M Fly Forum. Register, post your photo (required) and enjoy.

http://500-m-fly-shooter.1062065.n5.nabble.com/
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Mar 2019, 2:58 pm

Any reason you chose 6.5x47 lap over man bun or 260 Apollo?
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 14 Mar 2019, 3:08 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Any reason you chose 6.5x47 lap over man bun or 260 Apollo?


Just caught me.

Don't know what "man bun" is ... ?? But 6.5x47L over 260 Rem is Accuracy. A smaller cartridge case that performs velocity wise as well but has less recoil from a lesser powder charge. Typical here is using a 130gr Berger VLD using 37.4gr AR2208 for a tad over 2900fps velocity out of a 28.5" barrel. Small rifle primer and a few other reasons.

There other other very great calibres like 6mmBR, 6 Dasher and 6mmAI which all I had trouble keeping up with but with a bit of wind the 6.5mm is an advantage.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Mar 2019, 3:31 pm

Appreciate the response - thank you.
Man bun = the over popular 6.5mm creedmore...regularly claimed by many to be the outright leader for distance/accuracy but talking to ppl like yourself, who are clearly very experienced - I’m not so sure...
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by sungazer » 14 Mar 2019, 3:46 pm

As you said when you go to competitions you will see nearly all Nightforce a very good reason for that is that they are very optically good and they track very well and are solid as in they last very well. If you go to a F-class shoot you will also see nearly all Nightforce the previous most popular models were the 8-32 Benchrest but a few years ago they came out with a ?-55 competition. I have both and my scores went up a point or two when I upgraded to the 55 times. I dont use it all the time at max when there is heavy mirage I might wind it back to 40 or even 32. Is the extra magnification worth it. Yes every bit of it. It enables you not only to see the target better but you can see if you have any tremors and it makes it easier to aim off small amounts. The 308 might be a little bit behind in the running at 500yrds it picks up again over that thou against the 6mm and 6.5 mm more popular in the fly.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Mar 2019, 6:47 pm

You can use the Nightforce 32x BR at 500 and see quite well. You can pick one up secondhand for $1,000.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 15 Mar 2019, 7:54 pm

At a pinch but I think a bit under powered for Benchrest. Not sure lately but awhile back there were quite a few selling their 12-42's off to get the newer 55x Nightforce and they were going for not much more dollars. Well, less than 1,500 but I haven't been keeping tabs.

Nightforce I believe still offer the best buy for the money in a competition scope.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 15 Mar 2019, 9:16 pm

Ok, yes i think I'll start with finding a second hand nightforce, the gun was originally intended to be for hunting, hence why its 308 with 6-18x40, but I really like the idea of heading to a few fly shoots. I'm shy about putting a heap of money into a really high powered scope and then loosing interest in fly :lol:
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 15 Mar 2019, 9:32 pm

Hunting...??? Wow.

In my view a Rifle intended for hunting is a million miles from what is required to go Target Shooting....Well, Benchrest and that is what 500M Fly is all about.

I have a feeling you may have gone to perhaps the Mackay Shoot. There is one there in a week or few. Nominate for it and go if you can,,,it's a real buzz to be apart of the competition.

See how you go, well at least get there and see what is being used. I think it's their first national rated shoot and looking at the nominations there aren't a lot listed but at least one from down this neck of the woods who is a pretty good shooter. Tim & Vince V.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 15 Mar 2019, 9:50 pm

I have a nightforce 12x42 br.... maybe could sell it for 1600-1700ish.... might give me incentive to get the 15x55.... lol
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 15 Mar 2019, 10:03 pm

Ziad wrote:I have a nightforce 12x42 br.... maybe could sell it for 1600-1700ish.... might give me incentive to get the 15x55.... lol


I'm not being smart but forgive me please. It was a few years ago and I sold my 12-42x for $1100 when at the time a new one was about $1600 at the wrong place.. I imagine they have gone up in price, I haven't been interested in tracking the sales. Don't know what a 15-55x is worth either but.... it's a lot less by miles than buying a March Scope for near 4,000 bucks.

For someone that is serious getting into Benchrest a scope of that quality for less than 2,000 bucks is a great step forward. There are a number of quality scopes of mid power that are way more expensive.

Nightforce BR Scopes were initially designed by a few Benchrest Shooters, one of which is Stuart Elliott of international fame yet alone in the setup of what Fly Shooting is all about. They were designed to cut out the frills and fancy stuff to provide the best optics and adjustment for the purpose... Target Shooting
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 16 Mar 2019, 6:52 am

Its not really for sale, I was joking. I just bought it 2nd hand, not even put it on my gun yet.

The price of the 15x55 is around the 2700 mark. Definitely not in March territory

But for the right price nearly anything is for sale.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by sungazer » 16 Mar 2019, 8:16 am

The 12*42s are the same price second hand about the $1000 mark. I think they are the same price new as well. IMHO they are the best buy you can get for the $1000 mark. The 8*32 still works well for a hunting scope perhaps a bit high at the lower end for wide field of view for moving or scopeing but a stationary target at 100-200 and they really work well. They are even used on small bore 22 50yrd benchrest guns. Just shows that magnification can be used for more than just seeing your target.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Mar 2019, 8:48 am

Wow, I did not know guys were selling 42x for a grand. I would love to snap up a yellow label for that price if you gents have one for sale. Might have to stick one on every rifle I have.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 16 Mar 2019, 10:12 am

The 12x42 I have seen from $1100-1500 used. I think it was $1895 new. It is an AO scope but illuminated. The 8x32BR is around 1600-1700new. I don't think they are available new.

The 15x55 I have seen one go in a flash for 2k. RRP is near $2900. These have tactical knobs... which increase the value of the scope by $500 on their own.

Considering the price jump not sure why the 12x42 is going so cheap. Must be the tacticool knobs
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 16 Mar 2019, 10:35 am

Apollo wrote:Hunting...??? Wow.

In my view a Rifle intended for hunting is a million miles from what is required to go Target Shooting....Well, Benchrest and that is what 500M Fly is all about.


Like i said mate, that was the 1st time I'd been to a fly match so of course I don't have a target rifle. Still had alot of fun though
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 16 Mar 2019, 10:46 am

Kelsey Cooter wrote:Like i said mate, that was the 1st time I'd been to a fly match so of course I don't have a target rifle. Still had a lot of fun though


You will have a lot more fun, serious fun if the bug bites and you get hooked on Fly Shooting. As I know, it then gets a bit expensive to keep up with the top shooters. A great bunch of people.

I wish you all the very best with it and please enjoy every minute, even after the match having a yarn.

If you had been going to a match when I was going I would have been able to lend you a Target Rifle to shoot on the day.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 16 Mar 2019, 11:01 am

I realise there is a whole lot of calibers that do it well and you listed a few before, but as far as a good caliber for someone getting into fly goes, what would you recommend?
I was really surprised to see that out of the 13 other guns there, 4 of them were 223's.
I think a good few were 6.5cred
Last edited by Kelsey Cooter on 16 Mar 2019, 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by duncan61 » 16 Mar 2019, 11:23 am

good to find out what this manbun was all about.I did not want to ask
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Mar 2019, 11:31 am

The 308 used to be a decent caliber for 1000 yards - surely it would suffice to dip a tie in the waters...
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Gamerancher » 16 Mar 2019, 12:20 pm

Yeah, use what you've got. Upgrade your scope before anything else. The target you posted is a good start considering it was basically shot with a full on hunting rifle.
Benchrest is the Formula 1 of shooting sports, you would be looking around $5k for a basic rifle and the sky is the limit from there. It is the ultimate gear freak sport.
Just put some better optics on the one you've got, try improving your reloading methods, use match quality components and work on your shooting technique and wind/mirage reading ability. If you decide that the sport is for you, have at it, there is some awesome gear out there to be had, or you can just have fun putting in some good results with "basic" gear.
Attending more shoots would be my advice, have a look at what people are using and who is getting the results. There are some really knowledgeable, friendly folks involved in "Fly" shooting who are only too willing to help you out.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 16 Mar 2019, 12:48 pm

"Gamerancher" has some good advice and thinking around the same lines as myself.

I wonder what breed your 308 actually is... ??

I would upgrade the scope for a start like finding a secondhand Nightforce 12-42x mounted on a Pic Rail with elevation built in. Then perhaps depending on what your Action is perhaps just swap the standard stock for a proper 3" wide forend benchrest stock. Then you have to think about whatever front rest you are using. I use a Farley for my main but also have a very modified Caldwell Rock BR with a SEA Joystick Top. Again big dollars.

Nominate and get to the upcoming Mackay Fly Shoot. John McQuire used to shoot a 6.5x47L but from memory was never one of the top contenders, haven't kept up with what he has been doing these past few years but he is certainly keen traveling down to all the southern shoots.

In years gone past they used to publish an Equipment List containing all the info on what everyone was using but that seems to have gone by the wayside even though they still ask for the information when nominating.

The 308 for Light Gun for me would be a bit too much on my damaged spine to shoot all day but others might consider it mild. A calibre really depends on what you are able to organise but always in my mind and what I did and still may build is a straight 6mmBR which doesn't have the problems fireforming wildcat cases and there is a heap of information around on powder / bullet loads. Anthony Hall from Batemans Bay has shot a 6mmBR for many years and for many years he was the one who was winning.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Mar 2019, 3:44 pm

Kelsey Cooter wrote:I realise there is a whole lot of calibers that do it well and you listed a few before, but as far as a good caliber for someone getting into fly goes, what would you recommend?
I was really surprised to see that out of the 13 other guns there, 4 of them were 223's.
I think a good few were 6.5cred


There are three cases that are highly recommended for midrange Benchrest, they are 6mm BR, 6mm Dasher and 6mm BRX.

But seriously you could have fun with a 223, 300 WSM or whatever you have in the safe that can sling some reasonably heavy pills. You will learn heaps and improve your shooting out of sight. You will need to be pretty resilient as it is hard work and good results can be thin on the ground.

.If an 18x scope is what you have then it is better than a 9x. You might start at 300 metres which is still challenging.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by TassieTiger » 17 Apr 2019, 3:34 am

The top echelon in the sport - some are shooting contraptions that don’t even resemble firearms - although I’m unsure of the rules around some custom stuff. Some have engineered insane and complicated solutions to problems, the rest of us didn’t know existed.

I’ve previously witnessed a so called local fly legend, with a shooting contraption akin to an engineering marvel, sighting in his “rifle”, move his custom bench rest with a calliper type titanium slide, that holds the rifle exactly where he wants it - with minute and lockable Windage clamps and drop adjustments - not even look through the scope when he pulled the trigger. As someone else said - it can be the ultimate big boys toy brigade or just enjoy it for what it is knowing you are not competing with the $$$ and knowledge already involved...
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 17 Apr 2019, 8:33 am

Sounds like a Rail Gun. In Heavy Gun if it's within the Range allowed calibres and you can carry it to the firing line yourself then it's allowed within the rules. Doesn't mean you are going to win though.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by TassieTiger » 17 Apr 2019, 5:25 pm

Apollo wrote:Sounds like a Rail Gun. In Heavy Gun if it's within the Range allowed calibres and you can carry it to the firing line yourself then it's allowed within the rules. Doesn't mean you are going to win though.


Yes. Think I heard them refer to it as rail - was built on a CNC by the look of it...bloody strange.

What I don’t get - you say, it’s not guaranteed to win, but if some are going to the extent of square, cnc stocks, that can be locked into presses that then handle drop, windage etc via caliber type adjustments - where is the actual skill in shooting the thing??
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by Apollo » 17 Apr 2019, 6:36 pm

TassieTiger wrote:
Apollo wrote:Sounds like a Rail Gun. In Heavy Gun if it's within the Range allowed calibres and you can carry it to the firing line yourself then it's allowed within the rules. Doesn't mean you are going to win though.


Yes. Think I heard them refer to it as rail - was built on a CNC by the look of it...bloody strange.

What I don’t get - you say, it’s not guaranteed to win, but if some are going to the extent of square, cnc stocks, that can be locked into presses that then handle drop, windage etc via caliber type adjustments - where is the actual skill in shooting the thing??


Someone a lot of us know is Phil Jones (Redback Precision) and Annie Elliott (BRT) and her once owned Rail Gun. I think it was built by their friend Phil Jones (Gunsmith).

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct= ... UcfIzkWjNZ

I can remember seeing Anthony Hall (Batemans Bay) shooting one similar at a Wagga Wagga (NSW) 500 Metre Fly Shoot but that stopped when the range had to put baffles up in front of the firing line. Rail Gun Scope was too high to be able to see anything as the baffle blocked any view of the target.

You still have to know how to read the wind and mirage then set the dammed thing to where you want to hit before the conditions change which can happen in a split second. From what I've seen not the easiest thing to adjust quick smart on the fly if you can see it. A lot easier using a Joystick Front Rest where you can track any change required quick smart as you have control all the time.

Then again I've seen one guy using a Joystick Rest that once happy with the aim takes his hand off the Joystick, lifts his head and uses just his finger and thumb to shoot his rifle like Free Recoil Method. Then afterwards looks back through the scope to see where the shot hit, if he can see it. Times I have seen this happen he wasn't scoring all that well either so buggered if I know. Each to their own I guess.

In straight Benchrest Shooting as apposed to 500 Metre Fly I think there is a special Class for just Rail Guns. Rail Guns don't interest me one bit, besides they cost a fortune.
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Re: Recommended scope for 500m fly with a 308?

Post by TassieTiger » 17 Apr 2019, 6:58 pm

I guess it’s like any sport - we are speaking about the extreme end of shooting and with that comes it’s own challenges.
I was going to say it’s not really shooting to me (rail gun) but after reading your post, i can see it would be pretty easy for an old hunter to look at me, spread on a table with bipod and rear bag, saying the same thing so...if it’s got a trigger, I guess I’m all good lol.
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