Melbourne shooting

[Dabi]

Another shooting in Melbourne triggered some brain deads to consider toughening up the 'watered down' gun laws. Why not go harder on cracking down illegal firearms and black market dealers? I know this is the general attitude of LAFOs towards this kind of events, but as there have been a few unconnected shootings concentrated in a short time span I fear that they might actually take action to disregard us once again for the sake of fame.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... Q55WTaqqe4

[on_one_wheel]

Because it's way easier to target lafo's

They know where we live
They know how many guns we have
They know what make, type, calibre we have


They know nothing about unregistered, unlicensed firearms, they are impossible to control.

[wanneroo]

Well I was shocked to hear about this since all these laws were supposed to prevent all these shootings. Instead it seems to be getting worse than ever.

[womble]

Government overregulation inevitably leads to a black market. ( Thanks Johnny you d**khead.) And In this case a very lucrative one. All you can do is make sure you have the best security you can afford. No doubt black market demand well exceeds supply
But what is the alternative wanneroo ?
We follow the path of the US ? A school shooting every 8 days on average.

Hopefully the police on the ground dealing with this have a voice In how to respond to it. I think the premier has a good relationship with the current commissioner. Hopefully they have some very honest conversations because shootings in Melbourne make the news every night now. And they are isolated incidents.
Give them whatever they need. Outsource LAPD lol

I don’t think Howard wanted this to be his legacy. So the pressure will be on.
Realistically I don’t think there’s much more they can do to lafos. We’re already in a permantent state of bent over touching our toes. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that wont solve the problem
Well here’s hoping anyway.

[No1_49er]

That's interesting, 'womble'.
Where do you get the figure of "every 8 days" for school shootings?
Source please.

[Sergeant Hartman]

He meant every 8 school days. But it's a big country and lots of schools, plus total shooting was actually 23 in 2018. Many states only have 180 school days a year thus a shootings every 8 school days.

Do a Google search

Also honestly I read the news article and it doesn't spin as bleak as you guys saying. He's a politician and just doing the political thing to appease the scared public

[Member-Deleted]

I tend to agree with you Womble i would hazard a guess that 80 percent of police dissagree with the way things are being handled as far as gun laws go this agenda is being pushed politically and the police and licencing branch have to follow just look at NZ who's pushing the agenda there i don't live in melbourne but we have a large gun ownership up here and we don't have 2% of the gun problems cities have my opinion is the whole system on guns is broken they're trying to push a square bolt into a round hole government needs independent advice from proper people not those that surround them and jump at their every whim as was said gov creates black markets then more crime is produced because of the money involved crims don't take notice of ''illegal'' , ''legal'' they just take what ever makes them money and happy The romans had gangs and criminals and weapons and they killed enough people and yet we have a modern society gov who think taking away peoples guns is going to fix everything being over regulated is one of the causes of todays problems which opens up a pathway for crims to flourish in a given area so these shootings in melbourne won't stop until they get to the root cause of the unrest and deal with it if thats at all possible take the guns which of most are '' illegal ''anyway that leaves knives,bricks,sticks,bats,cut throat razors and so on all of which have been used in the past very successfully to harm people maybe like Donald Trump said '' Build a wall '' keep the crims in or out which ever, sounds silly i know but no sillier than whats happening now more thought before action could be the way to go

[Madang185]

"Tough" gun laws are just bulldust. The Pollies and the Police are more interested in fining Joe Blow Shooter who has failed to secure a box of ammunition than tackling hardened criminals, they are enforcing their "tough" laws. Licensed legal shooters are a soft target. If you want tough laws consider the following.
Using a firearm in the commission of an offence-ten years-no parole.
Discharging a firearm in the commission of an offence-15 years-no parole.
Killing a person in the commission of an offence by using a firearm- life-no parole.
I will bet you every rifle in my gun safe that such laws will never be passed.

The pollies have suggested that there are people within the community who should not have a gun license, really! The shooting community proposed such laws
more than 40 years ago, it was "against there civil rights."
Funny about that.

[Member-Deleted]

I've been watching some docos on television lately on police corruption ,polliticall corruption and the criminal world and the involvement of criminals in all parties i knew we had dirty cops and pollies but it surprised me to see the extent and how long it had been going on and how far it went right up to judges ,gov ,prisons, crims what a discrace it's of no wonder we have the problems of today when the minders are corrupt to the core i know good cops get a tarnished name due to the bad ones also good cops have at times had their careers taken because of pressure from dirty cops the whole system is feeding off crime Royal commissions don't seem to have fixed things thus far so how can we expect to have fair play and common sense thinking on implementing proper laws and penalties such as gun laws this is why the truth is never revieled on the statis of the guns legal or non legal used in crime (does take much to figure out but)
from what i've heard these shootings in melbourne were biker related about protection money so if true the guns would have been illegal no doubt the law and enforcement tried to crash and burn the bikie clubs didn't work as good as they expected (i'm not saying it was right or wrong just saying)it just sent them deeper underground when the level of the threat of being caught increases for crims the level of violence tends to increase as well is my finding christ there is plenty of places to start to clean things up in a perfect world but i don't think the powers to be really care as long as they have the civillians to kick around and a way to create jobs for the boys

[wanneroo]

Government overregulation inevitably leads to a black market. ( Thanks Johnny you d**khead.) And In this case a very lucrative one. All you can do is make sure you have the best security you can afford. No doubt black market demand well exceeds supply
But what is the alternative wanneroo ?
We follow the path of the US ? A school shooting every 8 days on average.

Hopefully the police on the ground dealing with this have a voice In how to respond to it. I think the premier has a good relationship with the current commissioner. Hopefully they have some very honest conversations because shootings in Melbourne make the news every night now. And they are isolated incidents.
Give them whatever they need. Outsource LAPD lol

I don’t think Howard wanted this to be his legacy. So the pressure will be on.
Realistically I don’t think there’s much more they can do to lafos. We’re already in a permantent state of bent over touching our toes. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that wont solve the problem
Well here’s hoping anyway.

There isn't a school shooting every 8 days in the USA. That phony stat got debunked as it turned out things like people committing suicide in the parking lot or gangs shooting one another on a Saturday night near a school were included.

Actually I think the US is the solution. We had a significant crime problem that grew post welfare 1965 and that reached it's peak into the 1980's. At that time it was actually difficult to legally carry a firearm for protection. Finally states began passing concealed carry legislation and people started shooting back at the criminals. Personally I can remember in the 1980's and early 1990's how criminality and homicide were much more common than today. Then I remember the tide turning as criminals started to end up dead as people began shooting back. Since the early 1990's our homicide rate has fallen by more than half and the only places in the USA where homicide is common is in a few urban areas with very strict gun laws so the criminals still own the streets. The vast majority of the land mass of the USA is statistically some of the safest in the world. If you take my area for instance, we've got tons of guns everywhere and in most houses. If you decide you want a career as a house burglar, you might knock over one house and get away with it. But statistically by the second or third house your career will probably come to a swift end with lots of lead poisoning.

If you look at the crime wave that has been sweeping Melbourne over the past couple years, the reason it goes on is because it can. Criminals have no real penalty so they run wild and the governments response is to further attack law abiding people rather than the criminals. And it will get worse too. Until people can shoot back and they stack a few criminal bodies up, it isn't going to end.

The other thing that changed in the USA was the castle doctrine and other self defense laws governing use of force in public. Currently in Australia people do not have much in the way of legal options for self defense. Criminals obviously know that.

[wanneroo]

I've been watching some docos on television lately on police corruption ,polliticall corruption and the criminal world and the involvement of criminals in all parties i knew we had dirty cops and pollies but it surprised me to see the extent and how long it had been going on and how far it went right up to judges ,gov ,prisons, crims what a discrace it's of no wonder we have the problems of today when the minders are corrupt to the core i know good cops get a tarnished name due to the bad ones also good cops have at times had their careers taken because of pressure from dirty cops the whole system is feeding off crime Royal commissions don't seem to have fixed things thus far so how can we expect to have fair play and common sense thinking on implementing proper laws and penalties such as gun laws this is why the truth is never revieled on the statis of the guns legal or non legal used in crime (does take much to figure out but)
from what i've heard these shootings in melbourne were biker related about protection money so if true the guns would have been illegal no doubt the law and enforcement tried to crash and burn the bikie clubs didn't work as good as they expected (i'm not saying it was right or wrong just saying)it just sent them deeper underground when the level of the threat of being caught increases for crims the level of violence tends to increase as well is my finding christ there is plenty of places to start to clean things up in a perfect world but i don't think the powers to be really care as long as they have the civillians to kick around and a way to create jobs for the boys

To me it's very simple. The police in Australia and New Zealand for that matter have way too much political power and say and from what I can tell little accountability to the public. Here in the USA just about every county and parish has an elected sheriff for instance. They are hired and fired by the voters every couple of years at the polls. Municipal Police departments are held accountable by elected city or town commissioners. If I have a problem with my town cops or police chief I have the opportunity twice a month to speak in front of the town commission and they can hire or fire any police officer including the chief. And if I don't like them I can vote them out or run for town commissioner myself.

Tell me if I'm wrong but all I see is these big blob organizations like the Victoria or NSW Police with no local accountability and a lot of political power in making laws.

[zhuk]

Hopefully the police on the ground dealing with this have a voice In how to respond to it. I think the premier has a good relationship with the current commissioner. Hopefully they have some very honest conversations because shootings in Melbourne make the news every night now. And they are isolated incidents.
Give them whatever they need. Outsource LAPD lol

I don’t think Howard wanted this to be his legacy. So the pressure will be on.
Realistically I don’t think there’s much more they can do to lafos. We’re already in a permantent state of bent over touching our toes. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that wont solve the problem
Well here’s hoping anyway.

"I'm not aware of any further request for additional gun law reform but, given recent events, if the police commissioner came to me and said he needed more, then of course we would stand ready to do that."

Mr Andrews said there has already been significant changes to the state's gun laws. Most notable was the introduction of firearm prohibition orders, which allow police to search anyone subject to an order without a warrant.

“Whenever Victoria Police have come to us seeking more powers or more resources, we’ve stood ready do that and we do now," Mr Andrews said.

If it were NSW, police would unequivocally be asking for more powers

Re Howard, are you kidding? This is precisely what he wanted his legacy to be, "the crowning glory of my Prime Ministership" etc

Since he was thwarted by the Nationals on a complete civilian ban in '96.

Realistically I don’t think there’s much more they can do to lafos.

Welcome to NSW, or WA if you think that lol

[womble]

Perhaps you are right wanneroo.
Perhaps we are on the up curve that you experienced 80’s through 90’s.
I do think citizens are more vulnerable to violent crime here. And it’s easy to get the impression that the police forces are overwhelmed and under resourced.
People don’t really fear or respect authority much here. And criminals don’t have much fear of reprisal. We also have a massive meth problem which removes any inhibitions in criminal acts. Not unlike the crack cocaine epidemic from your time.
At the end of the day people will protect their families, legal or not.
But yes, perhaps we are indeed following the US trends going back 30-40 years.
Melbourne is starting to resemble east LA 1980’s. A lot of wannabe gang bangers subscribing to that type of sub culture.

But then you can look to New York City from that time frame. I think most would argue the solution and subsequent success was brought about by aggressive policing tactics.

So I don’t know if arming everyone is the solution we need. There are downsides to that.
And then if you go back in our short term history, we’ve experienced a trigger happy police force and obviously that had it’s downsides.
Quite the conundrum.

[Sergeant Hartman]

I think things have changed recently, which had resulted in the discretionary power of the cops to give a little hiding to crims to be taken away (mind you that was abused a fair bit as well) plus the courts that have taken a very lenient stance towards young offenders and drug effected offenders. So in short there is no respect of authority.

I have already said this, I am very against personal protection concealed firearms......it wil irrevocably change the fabric of the society. And I come from a country where the law and bbn order situation is very bad and while not expressly allowed have many family members carry concealed weapons and have guards that carry semi/full auto for safety... and tbh when your times up no amount of guns will stop the bullet with your name on it

[doc]

To me it's very simple. The police in Australia and New Zealand for that matter have way too much political power and say and from what I can tell little accountability to the public. Here in the USA just about every county and parish has an elected sheriff for instance. They are hired and fired by the voters every couple of years at the polls. Municipal Police departments are held accountable by elected city or town commissioners. If I have a problem with my town cops or police chief I have the opportunity twice a month to speak in front of the town commission and they can hire or fire any police officer including the chief. And if I don't like them I can vote them out or run for town commissioner myself.

Tell me if I'm wrong but all I see is these big blob organizations like the Victoria or NSW Police with no local accountability and a lot of political power in making laws.

I love that level of accountability you have over there! It makes a lot of sense, and keeps the police accountable directly to the people that they serve. We've got zip chance of that occurring over here. When the USA was set up, the lawmakers knew that big government caused for corruption and did everything they could see possible to try and keep the government, police, etc accountable to the people.

We never had that occur here - and there's no chance that anyone in power is going to want to willingly hand more power back to the people and away from the government.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Hey man the is a way to do that.... just move to the USA. Why waste your life here

[womble]

I don’t get shot at all that often here really.
I think that would take some getting used to.
I’m staying

[mickb]

To me it's very simple. The police in Australia and New Zealand for that matter have way too much political power and say and from what I can tell little accountability to the public. Here in the USA just about every county and parish has an elected sheriff for instance. They are hired and fired by the voters every couple of years at the polls. Municipal Police departments are held accountable by elected city or town commissioners. If I have a problem with my town cops or police chief I have the opportunity twice a month to speak in front of the town commission and they can hire or fire any police officer including the chief. And if I don't like them I can vote them out or run for town commissioner myself.

Tell me if I'm wrong but all I see is these big blob organizations like the Victoria or NSW Police with no local accountability and a lot of political power in making laws.

Waneroo you are correct about Australian police but lets be completely honest about the US situation too.There are many LE departments not under county voting, FBI, ATF, state police, ICE, USSS, DEA, Marshalls, treasury, various individual state investigation beaureas,its a dazzling array a lot of countries don't have, even your game and parks are gun toting LEO's. I like the US constitution and interaction between your judicial systems and state powers etc but I think the wheels fell off the wagon a little for you guys in application. Your prisons and police have become big business for revenue, the US now has 5x the incarceration rate than the rest of the 1st world.