Armed security guards

Semi automatic and single shot handguns, revolvers and other pistols

Armed security guards

Post by bronco93 » 10 May 2019, 9:27 pm

Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by on_one_wheel » 10 May 2019, 9:31 pm

Im going to chime in here with a guess... Because cowboys.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bronco93 » 10 May 2019, 9:45 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:Im going to chime in here with a guess... Because cowboys.


:lol: you're probally right
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by cracker » 10 May 2019, 9:53 pm

bronco93 wrote:Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?

there not theirs, its what the company would supply.
whats wrong with a revolver?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 10 May 2019, 10:12 pm

With the minimal training they receive, if they ever need to draw and use them, 6 missed shots flying off into a crowded CBD is better than a semi fed by a double-stack mag
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bronco93 » 11 May 2019, 12:06 am

cracker wrote:
bronco93 wrote:Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?

there not theirs, its what the company would supply.
whats wrong with a revolver?


I dont think there is anything wrong with a revolver.
I enjoy shooting them. I just thought semi auto pistols are more accurate in the average persons hand? Saying that, we have all seen the video last year of the aussie copper trying to put down the roo from no more than 3m and was still missing it
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bronco93 » 11 May 2019, 12:10 am

I should have said too I was mainly thinking of a revolver being used in double action where accuracy is less than a semi auto pistol
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by CrackThump » 11 May 2019, 10:43 am

This is going back a few years, And I mean 'turn of the century' :P 1999-ish

My lady friend of the season had just qualified as an armed carry guard in nsw and complained about the massively heavy trigger pull on the smith and wesson revolver that she trained with and carried. I remember asking her why she doesnt (a) cock the hammer and fire or (b) opt for semi auto.

The answer took 3 hours and several whiteboard diagrams but it went something like this.

Discharging your firearm should be a last choice or self defence response, Stopping to cock the firearm indicates you had time to think about it and you should have thought of something else.

Revolvers over autos kind of ties into the same subject of heavy trigger pulls, As someone mentioned earlier, the scant training that these minimum wagers receive, using a semi auto increases the possibility of accidental discharges trying to draw from a holster in a high stress situation. There were other reasons, along the lines of a revolver's simplicity of use verus the semi auto's moving parts, jams, various conditions of readiness etc etc... The general idea was that an inexperienced user had less chance of catastrophic f*ckuppery with a revolver

From what I can see, not much has changed with security officers in the last 20 years, so I think its safe to assume that training philosophies havent changed much either.

Annnnnnd... Discuss...
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Dabi » 11 May 2019, 10:53 am

bronco93 wrote:I should have said too I was mainly thinking of a revolver being used in double action where accuracy is less than a semi auto pistol

yeah you wouldn't be using revolvers defensively in S/A
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Dabi » 11 May 2019, 10:56 am

I saw some armed guards a few days ago who carried (looked like S&W M&P or something from the grip) semi autos and thought they finally got an upgrade :D, didn't ask what it was exactly as I felt like they probably wouldn't know either or wanna bother with me.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 11 May 2019, 12:33 pm

CrackThump wrote: Stopping to cock the firearm indicates you had time to think about it and you should have thought of something else.



CT, I don't doubt that was the explanation given to you by your lady friend (and maybe given to her when she was trained) but it's not the reason that single action is not the preferred technique that is taught. If it was (and it sounds like BS quasi-legal puffery), the same could be said about disengaging a safety catch, or racking the slide on a semi to chamber a round (if not already carried in the 'Action' condition).

Single action makes the trigger easier to pull ("lighter") and therefore hugely increases the chances of an unintended discharge, even more so under stress or when frightened or startled. This is also the reason we keep our fingers off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until wanting to deliberately fire a round.

Or as you so neatly put it :drinks: , the general idea was that an inexperienced user had less chance of catastrophic f*ckuppery.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by ponkychonk » 11 May 2019, 12:38 pm

CrackThump wrote:This is going back a few years, And I mean 'turn of the century' :P 1999-ish

My lady friend of the season had just qualified as an armed carry guard in nsw and complained about the massively heavy trigger pull on the smith and wesson revolver that she trained with and carried. I remember asking her why she doesnt (a) cock the hammer and fire or (b) opt for semi auto.

The answer took 3 hours and several whiteboard diagrams but it went something like this.

Discharging your firearm should be a last choice or self defence response, Stopping to cock the firearm indicates you had time to think about it and you should have thought of something else.

Revolvers over autos kind of ties into the same subject of heavy trigger pulls, As someone mentioned earlier, the scant training that these minimum wagers receive, using a semi auto increases the possibility of accidental discharges trying to draw from a holster in a high stress situation. There were other reasons, along the lines of a revolver's simplicity of use verus the semi auto's moving parts, jams, various conditions of readiness etc etc... The general idea was that an inexperienced user had less chance of catastrophic f*ckuppery with a revolver

From what I can see, not much has changed with security officers in the last 20 years, so I think its safe to assume that training philosophies havent changed much either.

Annnnnnd... Discuss...


"Stopping to cock the firearm indicates you had time to think about it and you should have thought of something else."

Well that is a load of steaming garbage if I do say so myself
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by wanneroo » 11 May 2019, 1:20 pm

Have a read of Jim Cirillo's "Tales of the Stakeout Squad". It's a book of stories from his various experiences as member of the New York City Police Department in the late 1960's and early 1970's when he worked for a unit that did stakeouts and got in regular gun fights with violent criminals. He mostly used a .38 Spl revolver in double action and killed plenty of thugs with it. He explains his reasoning why he shot in double action in the book. Anyone interested in how gunfights play out in real life, not the movies, should have a read of the book.

Later in life after retiring as a police officer and becoming an instructor he later became a convert to semi auto pistols, Glocks in particular.

In my opinion revolvers are out of date BUT in the right hands and with the right ammunition are clearly very, very effective.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by wanneroo » 11 May 2019, 1:23 pm

I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bigrich » 11 May 2019, 4:58 pm

wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


Serious shoot outs just aren’t real common in Australia
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Chappo » 11 May 2019, 6:32 pm

Like the op I also know sweet fa about handguns but I would assume the biggest reason would be for deterrence and then I’d agree with crackthumps reasoning that they don’t have enough of training or even enough need to warrant a semi auto.

If I could take this off topic slightly, I’ve been watching the Bush Tuckerman series on DVD lately and Les carries a sidearm that looks like it’d do more damage to a croc (or dropbear) if he hit him with it! The thing is huge!!
Like I said I know sweet fa but I’d like to know what it is. Can anyone identify it?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Dabi » 11 May 2019, 11:32 pm

CrackThump wrote:This is going back a few years, And I mean 'turn of the century' :P 1999-ish

My lady friend of the season had just qualified as an armed carry guard in nsw and complained about the massively heavy trigger pull on the smith and wesson revolver that she trained with and carried. I remember asking her why she doesnt (a) cock the hammer and fire or (b) opt for semi auto.

The answer took 3 hours and several whiteboard diagrams but it went something like this.

Discharging your firearm should be a last choice or self defence response, Stopping to cock the firearm indicates you had time to think about it and you should have thought of something else.

Revolvers over autos kind of ties into the same subject of heavy trigger pulls, As someone mentioned earlier, the scant training that these minimum wagers receive, using a semi auto increases the possibility of accidental discharges trying to draw from a holster in a high stress situation. There were other reasons, along the lines of a revolver's simplicity of use verus the semi auto's moving parts, jams, various conditions of readiness etc etc... The general idea was that an inexperienced user had less chance of catastrophic f*ckuppery with a revolver

From what I can see, not much has changed with security officers in the last 20 years, so I think its safe to assume that training philosophies havent changed much either.

Annnnnnd... Discuss...


then go with a S/A D/A pistol like a beretta 98 fs, your first shot is heavy and if you had to fire that means you probably have to fire more.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by wanneroo » 11 May 2019, 11:59 pm

bigrich wrote:
wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


Serious shoot outs just aren’t real common in Australia


Understood, but if you are carrying a gun and the potential for using it exists, you better know how to deal with it otherwise it will do more harm than good.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bigrich » 12 May 2019, 2:21 pm

wanneroo wrote:
bigrich wrote:
wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


Serious shoot outs just aren’t real common in Australia


Understood, but if you are carrying a gun and the potential for using it exists, you better know how to deal with it otherwise it will do more harm than good.


they don't think ahead much anymore , costs money you see ......... :unknown:
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Chinballs » 12 May 2019, 3:01 pm

Armaguard are progressively switching over to the Beretta APX http://www.beretta.com/en-us/apx-striker/ as their staff roll through their annual requalification course.

As to why they used revolvers for so long, the answer is simple. Cost. Armaguard (and Prosegur, formerly Chubb) have thousands of firearms between them and revolvers were the only option when they got going. Despite the advances in firearms in the intervening years there has been no great incentive to upgrade to semi atuos when there is no real benefit. The pistol is mainly a deterent and a last chance option if the guard's life is threatened so there is no need for bigger ammo capacity, speedier reloads or anything else a semi auto does better than a revolver.

The cost for Armaguard to upgrade to the APX is in the millions and they are getting the guns very cheaply as Beretta has gained no noteworthy contracts for the APX which was entered in the US XM17 Modular Handgun System trials that resulted in the Sig P320 winning. I would say they finally swapped over as the vast majority of their revolvers are all exceptionally old and they finally got sick of rising maintenance costs combined with the difficulty of finding someone to service them all. I know when I was there they didn't use either Nioa or Grycol, the Ruger and S&W importers respectively) for their servicing needs. I assume the APX contract is much more detailed and would include an overall package of magazines, parts, servicing and support as opposed to whatever the deal was thirty years ago when they bought their old revolvers.

In QLD at least, the training for a Cash in Transit guard is no different for revolver or semi auto as far as security license holders go. There is a certain number of shots at a target from set distances (maxes out at 7m from memory) and all shots must be within the human silhouette. The course of fire involves strong and weak hand shooting but most is shot with two hands. The course of fire also involves a couple pf mandatory reloads ie shoot a couple of shots, reload, shoot a couple more. The course is not hard for someone who shoots even semi regularly however over 95% of guards have no interest in shooting and do not have a target license or any other experience shooting handguns.

The initial course takes about a week but most of it is to do with when you can and can't shoot, deescalating threats etc. There's a couple of days of hands on stuff with a max of about a hundred rounds shot including the actual qualification shoot.

Guards can only shoot to defend their own life or the life of another, they can not draw just to protect their cargo. As in any other industry where robbery is a concern the first thing to do is obey the attackers instructions and comply. The reality is most robberies end in no shots fired and the chance of a running shootout is virtually nil unless the guards go rogue and decide they are John Wick all of a sudden. As someone else mentioned you can't cock the hammer on your revolver either. The only time you should pull the gun out is in an imminent threat situation and if you had time to draw, cock the hammer and fire you were not in imminent danger. If they can prove you cocked the hammer you are toast.

Source: I used to work there and still have mates that work there. I kept my security firearms license even though I don't use it as it cost me a few grand to get by the time you include the security course, security license and firearms course and license. I actually have a requal due in the next couple of months.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by doc » 13 May 2019, 10:36 am

bronco93 wrote:I don't think there is anything wrong with a revolver. I enjoy shooting them. I just thought semi auto pistols are more accurate in the average persons hand?


I've found revolvers to be more accurate. I don't know if this relates to the sights being fixed, instead of on a slider which may have some tolerances, or the action, or whatever - but for some reason many believe revolvers to be more accurate. Although we're talking competitive target shooting variances here. To hit center mass - I don't think there's going to be much of a difference. They wouldn't be shooting a gun out of someone's hands like in the movies. :D

Revolvers are more simple though. If it doesn't go bang, keep pulling the trigger to the next round. Pistols on the other hand require more training in clearing a malfunction and jams - and I suspect that security staff get very little ongoing range time.

Pistols are more convenient, I believe they can be lighter (plastic parts vs almost all metal), allow for quicker changes and hold more capacity in a single mag. But as for simple point and shoot a revolver is far more basic. A dud bullet/primer doesn't stop you progressing and more difficult to have jams in a revolver.

Don't underestimate the ol' revolver. ;)
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by duncan61 » 13 May 2019, 8:14 pm

Revolvers are the ducks guts.In England I had opportunity to load and shoot a black powder 6 gun that my father in law owned and it was accurate with moderate recoil and lots of smoke
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bullzeye » 13 May 2019, 9:10 pm

bronco93 wrote:Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?


These pistols hardly ever get shot, only very occasionally at training.

In these circumstances a revolver is less likely to jam up than a semi-auto.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by duncan61 » 13 May 2019, 9:35 pm

I had a go with a semi auto ACP at a workshop where there were hammers and grinding going on and the gay little bullet didnt even dent a skip bin at 30 metres,Made a bang like a clawhammer and knocked a bit of paint off.A .357 in a 6 gun would of hit much harder.Young fit male humans take a bit of stopping when they are full of adrenaline or drugs
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by zhuk » 02 Jun 2019, 9:59 pm

wanneroo wrote:
bigrich wrote:
wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


Serious shoot outs just aren’t real common in Australia


Understood, but if you are carrying a gun and the potential for using it exists, you better know how to deal with it otherwise it will do more harm than good.



Ahh if only you knew how little training police receive, and their resulting accuracy. Not blaming the officers, they can't help it if the instruction is lacking plus the insanely minimal range time which Govts (and by extension, taxpayers) are prepared to pay for.


Revolvers are still carried by security guards mainly for their reliability...they are never going to jam or misfeed.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by flutch » 04 Jun 2019, 8:17 pm

bronco93 wrote:
cracker wrote:
bronco93 wrote:Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?

there not theirs, its what the company would supply.
whats wrong with a revolver?


I dont think there is anything wrong with a revolver.
I enjoy shooting them. I just thought semi auto pistols are more accurate in the average persons hand? Saying that, we have all seen the video last year of the aussie copper trying to put down the roo from no more than 3m and was still missing it



Sorry to any blue shirt pigs here but I've seen how coppers shoot, and if I was in a building or area where they were drawing to fire on a bad guy, I would be more scared of the stray bullets from the cops than the antics of the bad guy
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by flutch » 04 Jun 2019, 8:23 pm

Chappo wrote:Like the op I also know sweet fa about handguns but I would assume the biggest reason would be for deterrence and then I’d agree with crackthumps reasoning that they don’t have enough of training or even enough need to warrant a semi auto.

If I could take this off topic slightly, I’ve been watching the Bush Tuckerman series on DVD lately and Les carries a sidearm that looks like it’d do more damage to a croc (or dropbear) if he hit him with it! The thing is huge!!
Like I said I know sweet fa but I’d like to know what it is. Can anyone identify it?
For those of you under 35 and have never heard of Les Hiddins, do yourself a favour.....



HEY! I am under 35 and I know who he is, damn
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by CrackThump » 08 Jul 2019, 8:31 am

an update to a long dead thread lol

we just stopped in at bunnings for a coffee and glyphosate and saw a mating pair of chubb cash transit guards in thier natural habitat..

,..... carrying what looked like glocks.

launceston tasmania is moving into the 20th century finally
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Nick90 » 01 Aug 2019, 8:18 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:With the minimal training they receive, if they ever need to draw and use them, 6 missed shots flying off into a crowded CBD is better than a semi fed by a double-stack mag


While the training is minimal, stating all rounds would miss the target and head towards innocent bystanders is clearly wrong. I could put a years wage on the line and bet a minimum of 90% of armed guards in NSW wouldn’t even consider reaching for their pistol.

Comply with the demands of an armed robbery 9 out of 10 times no one will be hurt and with any luck no rounds will be fired but reach for a pistol and I can guarantee they will fire and things get complicated quickly.
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Re: Armed security guard

Post by Nick90 » 01 Aug 2019, 8:36 pm

wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


In NSW it is a requirement to do training for a 1F (armed guard) license, it’s something like 120 odd hours minimum. Does it teach gun to gun combat? No and nor should that be the outcome ever.

There is a saying they use “win the fight, lose at court” and it is unfortunately mostly true, as soon as their pistol is unholstered reports must be written and notification to police is a must. A security guard in NSW needs extensive training around the laws and regulations and very basic firearms training, they must pass a mandatory shoot every year other than that no further firearms training is provided. Some hold a Cat H license and regularly shoot and participate in comps while some don’t, it’s personal preference.

I work for a certain NSW government in law enforcement and participate in casual security work, the rules and regulations surrounding NSW Security Guards is a absolute joke. God forbid if a security guard discharges their firearm, they will be scrutinised heavily, drained financially and mentally and likely end up spending the next 12-18 months in front of a magistrate.

As for revolvers and semi autos it is upto the employer, security guards in NSW can use either. They can use pistols which would otherwise be deemed prohibited due to barrel length etc... they can also carry weapons concealed if they have the correct permits.
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