New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

[bigrich]

Sounds like some well sorted loads flutch . What type of thrower are you using. Must be a very accurate thrower. I went back to using Lee powder “dippers” cause depending on the type of powder. I didn’t find mine was consistent enough. What anealing process do you use ? Sit the brass in a tray of water and use a gas torch ? I don’t get into weighing my cases or anything like that. I only trim mine halfway between max and minimum case length. I try to leave plenty of neck for neck tension. This helps with 22 hornet. I get some pretty tight groups the way i’m Doing things, but anealing is the next skill I have to work at . I’m loading for 22 hornet, 222, 6.5x55 and 357 mag in a lever at the moment. Pistol rounds are nice and easy . Cheers

I use the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, and I have been staunchly opposed to not weighing every charge But I tried it to get through a big batch of milsurp loads and it impressed the hell out of me.

I've never worked out how the stand-in-water-under-a-torch theory works, the torch just blows them over when I've tried it The socket-in-a-drill works better.

some powders like benchmark 2 and lil gun measure well. but my favorite powder for my 6.5, RE22, is a long stick that doesn't measure well out of my hornady thrower . for my rifles i prefer to weigh each charge , just for my own piece of mind. i've gotten some amazing groups out of my old winchester 222 lately, one hole type stuff . i put it down to being ocd with this sort of thing . now that you mention it blade i remember the socket in a drill method . i'm gunna have to bite the bullet (pun intended ) and anneal some 6.5 cases soon. dunno if i'll try annealing hornet brass until i got some more experience , it's so thin it'll probably disolve if i'm not paying attention

[CrackThump]

so what IS a good new brass to buy .? without going top end like Lapua etc.?

good, cheap, long lasting brass (for .223)

[bladeracer]

so what IS a good new brass to buy .? without going top end like Lapua etc.?

good, cheap, long lasting brass (for .223)

For me, .223Rem brass doesn't need to be long lasting, it's cheap and available everywhere.

But Norma seems to very good, I have .204 brass that's been loaded around twenty times. I also have Hornady brass that's almost as old as the Norma and it's holding up well also.
As I said, my Winchester .223Rem brass bought once-fired is good, I just wouldn't buy their new brass. I got a bunch of Remington and PPU .223Rem that's also good. ADI/OSA also seems to be good stuff but limited in choice. I have kilos of S&B brass in lots of chamberings, and I haven't had any trouble with any of it. S&B is available everywhere for a buck apiece, but also comes up on special. A lot of my pistol-caliber is Starline which I like, plus it's easier to find in the grass than yellow brass. But I got all my Starline from the US.

If you're shooting competition then I think you just have to pay for the good stuff, Lapua, Peterson and such. For everything else I would just get whatever you find at the right price, and if you don't like it try something else.

[bladeracer]

some powders like benchmark 2 and lil gun measure well. but my favorite powder for my 6.5, RE22, is a long stick that doesn't measure well out of my hornady thrower . for my rifles i prefer to weigh each charge , just for my own piece of mind. i've gotten some amazing groups out of my old winchester 222 lately, one hole type stuff . i put it down to being ocd with this sort of thing . now that you mention it blade i remember the socket in a drill method . i'm gunna have to bite the bullet (pun intended ) and anneal some 6.5 cases soon. dunno if i'll try annealing hornet brass until i got some more experience , it's so thin it'll probably disolve if i'm not paying attention

I really only run AR2206H through the powder measure as that's what I tend to use for bulk loads. Non-milsurp loads of AR2206H I run through the measure, but dump to the pan, then to the scale to confirm, then into the case. All my other powders just get dropped to the pan with a dipper, then trickled up.

[TassieTiger]

When I was researching lapua brass prices - I found a few places selling sako brass at about 2/3 price of lapua...one would think they’d have a bit of a reputation to uphold and that it would be better than decent...

[bladeracer]

When I was researching lapua brass prices - I found a few places selling sako brass at about 2/3 price of lapua...one would think they’d have a bit of a reputation to uphold and that it would be better than decent...

I got about 50 Tikka cases in a batch of mixed once-fired .223Rem. I figured it's probably rebadged Norma?

[SCJ429]

Must be high end rifles ?

From what I've read higher end stuff tends to be fussy as hell, my 270 is a Remington 783 glass bedded to a Boyd stock, and my 223 is a varmint howa pillar bedded to a thumbhole stock

You have done very well indeed if you can shoot five shot groups where each bullet hole is touching the others all day at 100 metres with a Remington 783 and in 270 which has not got the reputation for being the most inherently accurate case. Just imagine what you could do with a decent barrel in 6mm BR on your rifle, some Lapua brass and some care and attention to your reloading practices.

For the rest of us, getting the best brass we can is the foundation for getting an accurate load together.

[TassieTiger]

Was it noticeably better that the rem?

[SCJ429]

so what IS a good new brass to buy .? without going top end like Lapua etc.?

good, cheap, long lasting brass (for .223)

Sako don't make the brass I believe, I have not been able to confirm this but it may be Norma or RWS. It appears to be quite good in my rifle.

I also like OSA or ADI brass which works very well after a little prep.

[bigrich]

i was getting "white box" tikka branded ammo a while ago and it shot really well in a 22-250 . sako have their own branded ammo. i shot some target load stuff out of my 6.5 chinwester and swede mausers and it was quite good . i figure either norma or lapua make this stuff for tikka and sako, probably to their specs. have you guys seen what genuine weatherby ammo sells for ? on rebels site, 30-378 weatherby with 165 barnes tsx , 20 rounds for $278

[bladeracer]

You have done very well indeed if you can shoot five shot groups where each bullet hole is touching the others all day at 100 metres with a Remington 783 and in 270 which has not got the reputation for being the most inherently accurate case. Just imagine what you could do with a decent barrel in 6mm BR on your rifle, some Lapua brass and some care and attention to your reloading practices.

For the rest of us, getting the best brass we can is the foundation for getting an accurate load together.

Some people can do some amazing things sometimes, which can be damned annoying for people like me that aren't so talented

I had a discussion a while back with a guy on Youtube. Shooting fifty-yard groups of .22LR and referring to them as sub-MoA, despite them being obviously about 30mm groups (bullet holes show their own scale quite well). He was adamant that the app he was using confirms they are sub-MoA. Some people just aren't very bright. He also shot a group at 200yds of .4MoA, but didn't have a photo of it, so I asked him if the 200yd group was smaller than his 50yd groups...no response. Unfortunately, modern kids will accept as gospel whatever an electronic device tells them, rather than simply measure it with a stick and prove their technology to be wrong. .22LR is particularly easy to estimate as a cartridge happens to be exactly one-inch in length

[AZZA'S HJ47]

I haven't seen the new "winchester" brass however ive been so badly burnt by Winchester products id be reluctant to tuch the stuff.

[duncan61]

What is Minute of angle I am guessing it is a line 0 seconds 1 minute 0 degrees of centre

[duncan61]

Its O.K. I googled it

[bladeracer]

What is Minute of angle I am guessing it is a line 0 seconds 1 minute 0 degrees of centre

It's a cone one-sixtieth of one-degree extending out from you forever. 29mm wide at 100m, 58mm wide at 200m, 290mm at 1000m, and so on.

[duncan61]

Thanks blade.I get where flutch is coming from and mostly agree.There is a fair bit of over thinking in making your own but their our toys and if we wish to play we will

[flutch]

Must be high end rifles ?

From what I've read higher end stuff tends to be fussy as hell, my 270 is a Remington 783 glass bedded to a Boyd stock, and my 223 is a varmint howa pillar bedded to a thumbhole stock

You have done very well indeed if you can shoot five shot groups where each bullet hole is touching the others all day at 100 metres with a Remington 783 and in 270 which has not got the reputation for being the most inherently accurate case. Just imagine what you could do with a decent barrel in 6mm BR on your rifle, some Lapua brass and some care and attention to your reloading practices.

For the rest of us, getting the best brass we can is the foundation for getting an accurate load together.

The BS about 270win being innaccurate is hogwash, the bullets have a great BC and plenty of punch means flat shooting, the same could be said for any 80+ year old cartridge yet I'm sure people would get their knickers in a twist if I started picking on other old cartridges, truth is until recently it was only a lack of high BC or Target grade rounds that gave that false reputation, I would pit 270win against most things happily, hell people actually think 308win is amazing for accuracy, which is isn't by default, it's all a matter of what you actually know and looking at it objectively heck after all its a 6.8mm projectile, not unlike 6.5 really.

[bigrich]

The least fussy cartridge I own is 222 . On my old barrel my first batch of loads with 40 gn vmax revealed a load that consistently made one neat hole. With the new 1-12 twist barrel it does that with 60 grain vmax now. The laws of physics haven’t changed and some of the older cartridges were designed well straight up . The fussiest cartridge I shoot is the 22 hornet. But with attention to detail it can shoot very consistently and accurately. The one cartridge I would like to get into is 7x57 Mauser. With modern projectiles it can outdo the creedmore ,to a point . But as I already have the 6.5 Swede it would be doubling up a bit in my view.

[bigrich]

Actually, getting back to flutch’s 30-06 hybrid, the 270 win, the other really accurate cartridge based on the 30-06 is the 6.5-06. If I had the time and money, I would like to play with this. Little bit more speed than the Swede, but not a barrel burner like the 264 win mag. All the different guns and calibers , so little time and money. Lol

[TassieTiger]

You dont reload then...?

All the time, why try and make that misnomer?

My rifles clover leaf all day every day, I don't go to even half the pedantic steps others do, honestly can't see why they bother....

Well flutch, that’s great that you’re getting that sort of accuracy and performance out of your rifles without being overly pedantic. Some fellas rifles might not be as good as yours and need the extra work to give their best. Some folks try to attain the best they can just cause they want to. What rifles are you loading for mate ? You mentioned 223 and 270. What loads are you using ? And what brands of brass ?

A combo of different brass, mostly Winchester Hornady and ppu, have consistent results across all of those for the 223, all my 270 brass is both ppu and Winchester (I was able to buy ppu for south of $20 a pack) all were factory rounds before, I trim and anneal every few reloads, and full size each reload, use a thrower and don't trickle.

223 I am loading with 25gn 2206h and Nosler Varmageddons 55gn

270 I am reloading 45gn 2208 with 130gn Hornady SST projies,

Both are loaded using CCI primers.

What about your beastly 300 win mag? You don’t reload for that?

[flutch]

You dont reload then...?

All the time, why try and make that misnomer?

My rifles clover leaf all day every day, I don't go to even half the pedantic steps others do, honestly can't see why they bother....

Well flutch, that’s great that you’re getting that sort of accuracy and performance out of your rifles without being overly pedantic. Some fellas rifles might not be as good as yours and need the extra work to give their best. Some folks try to attain the best they can just cause they want to. What rifles are you loading for mate ? You mentioned 223 and 270. What loads are you using ? And what brands of brass ?

A combo of different brass, mostly Winchester Hornady and ppu, have consistent results across all of those for the 223, all my 270 brass is both ppu and Winchester (I was able to buy ppu for south of $20 a pack) all were factory rounds before, I trim and anneal every few reloads, and full size each reload, use a thrower and don't trickle.

223 I am loading with 25gn 2206h and Nosler Varmageddons 55gn

270 I am reloading 45gn 2208 with 130gn Hornady SST projies,

Both are loaded using CCI primers.

What about your beastly 300 win mag? You don’t reload for that?

Not yet champ, still chewing through factory ammo, however when that is spent I will be loading half of it with 185gn Lapua match grade and the other half with eldx Hornady projies, unsure what load, need to develop something

[wanneroo]

I bought some 300 Blackout Winchester ammo recently with a 200g expanding bullet, subsonic.

Cases are annealed and look OK.

Went away and shot some, 2nd round jammed, I think due to the sloppy rough open tip projectile.

Then I picked up the brass and all the case necks had gotten flattened a bit somehow. Hmmm... hadn't seen that before out of this gun. In fact had just been shooting a bunch of ADI 300 Blackout(yes we can get ADI here periodically) and all those are intact.

Upon inspection of the Winchester brass it looks a bit thin, so I'm not sure how it's going to work out to reload it.

[flutch]

The old man's model 70 flattens one side of all his brass it ejects, soft, hard, thick or thin it cares not lol

[SCJ429]

The BS about 270win being innaccurate is hogwash, the bullets have a great BC and plenty of punch means flat shooting, the same could be said for any 80+ year old cartridge yet I'm sure people would get their knickers in a twist if I started picking on other old cartridges, truth is until recently it was only a lack of high BC or Target grade rounds that gave that false reputation, I would pit 270win against most things happily, hell people actually think 308win is amazing for accuracy, which is isn't by default, it's all a matter of what you actually know and looking at it objectively heck after all its a 6.8mm projectile, not unlike 6.5 really.

Sorry if you feel that I am picking on the 270 however no one said it was inaccurate but even you must admit that it would not be your first choice for an accuracy competition.. It does make your claim of shooting one hole groups all day every day even more remarkable. I have no issues with your methods but I will continue to fuss over my brass and other details of my loads.

[duncan61]

I would think the 270 Win would tune up very well for competition as does my 7mm Rem Mag which is very similar.

[bigrich]

The old man's model 70 flattens one side of all his brass it ejects, soft, hard, thick or thin it cares not lol

My push feed 222 model 70 does the same thing with both the Norma and rem brass I’ve run through it . I put it down t the way it flicks the case out as it extracts . Minor thing. Most Winchester ammo I’ve tried in my rifles has been crap, Remington and federal haven’t been too bad . It’s a shame Winchester ammo doesn’t live up to the same quality that their older rifles do

[TassieTiger]

I would think the 270 Win would tune up very well for competition as does my 7mm Rem Mag which is very similar.

If my calibres clover leafed, all day, everyday, with multiple different ammunition, with not weighed powder, from budget 783 type rifles - I’d not bother doing any tuning what so ever. As SC said, The 270 is not known as an accurate caliber out of the box so to get an inch group from such a combination would be remarkable and to get consistent cloverleaf results with all bullets touching - nigh on impossible on an ongoing and consistent basis.

[flutch]

I would think the 270 Win would tune up very well for competition as does my 7mm Rem Mag which is very similar.

If my calibres clover leafed, all day, everyday, with multiple different ammunition, with not weighed powder, from budget 783 type rifles - I’d not bother doing any tuning what so ever. As SC said, The 270 is not known as an accurate caliber out of the box so to get an inch group from such a combination would be remarkable and to get consistent cloverleaf results with all bullets touching - nigh on impossible on an ongoing and consistent basis.

Both mine (rem 783) and the old man's (cmc mountaineer/howa) can take out a 1" chain link from 250m, done it plenty pissing off a mate of mine with his little gong, mines glass bedded with much care, has the trigger worked and obviously wasn't a Friday job. Know a heap of other lads with 270win Cal rifles and never known any of those boys to miss either. There is nothing inherently innaccurate about them at all, the outdated idea comes from the old days of soft lead projectiles and poor BC across the board (all calibers) and that the 270 stayed a deer cartridge round most of the world and wasn't employed into the fad driven world of target shooters and the likes, every day you hear someone touting the accuracy of their .308 which from my observations is far from an easy accurate point and shoot rifle, and the majority of projectiles for that also (hunting specifically) are poor at grouping also, it's not that the caliber/cartridge is inherently flawed at all, it's the fact that until recently only low BC rounds were made for it as that was it's market, load it with match grade 6.8 rounds or high BC polymer tip rounds and you get an entirely different animal.

[duncan61]

Once again I am with you flutch.super good barrel and projectile and who cares how it gets pushed out and by what

[TassieTiger]

What I’m referring to and I think SC in regards to accuracy prone calibres is much longer range stuff but if you can really shoot as good as your saying, with multiple variables, value based rifles then kudos to you.
You should visit some F class matches - am sure you’d upset a lot of ppl with $10k set ups lol.