.505 Gibbs project

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.505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 19 Jul 2019, 3:04 pm

Just wondering if anyone had been down the path of having a large safari style type rifle built.

Got a bee in my bonnet for a .505 Gibbs.

At the moment my plan consist of finding a 2nd hand cz550 safari gun in 375h&h, 416 rig or 458win mag, how ever i would consider using a winchester model 70 as a base.

Having the barrel removed and fitted with a suitable .505 barrel, having the chamber cut and the bolt milled too suit... other details such has barrel band sling mount, re using the factory cz sights will also be on the cards, all carried out by a professional

thoughts/criticism welcomed.

Hopefully going to use bob from kudu in montross how ever i read something about him having health issues?

Replacing the stock with something from hatchers perhaps and adding a recoil reducer to the stock, not a huge priority as the cz stock while being abit ugly should work...and i dont mind the model 70 stocks, any other stock manufactures that people know of?

Aiming for around $3500-$4000 in total on the gun its self which i think should be fair... figure 1500-2k for the gun 1k-1.5k in custom work.

Brass is available from bertram brass for just less then $150
Dies im trying to import from brownless u.s.a.. will see how that goes.... for $199 u.s d which seems very decent.

As far as a suitable press goes im at a loss... currently using a lee single stage but think it will be too small... as well as the .505 dies not fitting and requiring a different bush? no idea...

Any input would be great, im sure others have been down this path, or have better suggestions or thoughts regarding the matter.
cheers.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 19 Jul 2019, 3:18 pm

Why the 505 Gibbs??

Are u sure u can handle it.....
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by duncan61 » 19 Jul 2019, 5:13 pm

525 gn bullets WOW
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 19 Jul 2019, 5:29 pm

Bill wrote:Why the 505 Gibbs??

Are u sure u can handle it.....


ethical was of culling rabbits ?
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 19 Jul 2019, 5:30 pm

duncan61 wrote:525 gn bullets WOW

600s are on the cards too, case capacity is huge
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 19 Jul 2019, 7:26 pm

Cracka I handle 1 of the original 10 505 Gibbs imported over a decade ago and I told myself I had to have one lol, then the years went past and I decided that a 458 Lott would be a much more practical build/acquisition. Anyway stroke of luck but I now have a 500 A square CZ550 in the safe and its a hoot to shoot, well the mild cast lead loads are....

Ive got some betram projectiles and load data to stoke it up but I must confess Im not real keen on testing a full house load lol.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jul 2019, 7:29 pm

Sounds like a very sensible choice, I don't have one but shot a 505 built on a CZ550 action built by Group Solutions I think. You do have to hang onto it but it is a nice plinking rifle.

Your budget sounds about right, I built a 50 cal on a Winchester M70 action, RUM and I didn't get any change out of $4,000.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 19 Jul 2019, 7:59 pm

Bill wrote:Cracka I handle 1 of the original 10 505 Gibbs imported over a decade ago and I told myself I had to have one lol, then the years went past and I decided that a 458 Lott would be a much more practical build/acquisition. Anyway stroke of luck but I now have a 500 A square CZ550 in the safe and its a hoot to shoot, well the mild cast lead loads are....

Ive got some betram projectiles and load data to stoke it up but I must confess Im not real keen on testing a full house load lol.


what dies in what press do you use?

allready have a 458lott in a cz550, pretty standard but it still makes me smile from ear to ear.
500A square would be nice as well, or even keep going, but iv fallen in love with the history of the .505, mild and work your way up haha, 79grains off ar2008 was fun with 500g solids in the 458lott, 80grains was getting there and 81g started to just hurt - whats not to love !
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 19 Jul 2019, 8:02 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Sounds like a very sensible choice, I don't have one but shot a 505 built on a CZ550 action built by Group Solutions I think. You do have to hang onto it but it is a nice plinking rifle.

Your budget sounds about right, I built a 50 cal on a Winchester M70 action, RUM and I didn't get any change out of $4,000.


yeah thats the idea abit of plinking, think the 550 is a decent action tot start with, model 70 at the right price would get the nod too, not sure what else will work with such a large case
what dies and press are you using to load your .50cal ?
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jul 2019, 8:26 pm

The rifle is chambered in 500 MDM and is based on the RUM cases. Dies came from the US manufacture SKS Industries. I can load it on a standard press.

Your other option is to use the Weatherby Mark 5 action and go with the 500 A Square like Bill. I was contemplating doing this to a 460 Weatherby.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 19 Jul 2019, 8:38 pm

SCJ429 wrote:The rifle is chambered in 500 MDM and is based on the RUM cases. Dies came from the US manufacture SKS Industries. I can load it on a standard press.

Your other option is to use the Weatherby Mark 5 action and go with the 500 A Square like Bill. I was contemplating doing this to a 460 Weatherby.


.460 weatherby would be ace as well, but its not a 50cal... i was keen on a .460 until i saw the .505, think the .460 would be a better round in basically every way... tones of 458 projectiles about, i think they start to get torn apart though... like the hotter 458 lott rounds do, eg if you load 45/70 proj.
struggling to find anything about 500 mdm without digging threw some books.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 20 Jul 2019, 11:56 am

Cracka my 500 came with some handloads, 95gr under 570gr of lead, were meant to be doing 1900 but labradar has em doing 2050fps.

I was going to up the powder to 110-115gr with the Bertram 570gr cup n cores which should be approaching 2200fps, should be enough. 130-134gr should have em doing north of 2400fps :lol:

I also grabbed some 440gr Bertram pills, quickload show a top load around 2850fps :wtf: :lol:
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by marksman » 20 Jul 2019, 12:35 pm

the 505 gibbs is more than I can handle
after having two shots of one I gave the rifle back to the really good bloke owner, thanked him then told him I didn't think it was fun :lol:
he laughed at me as I held my head while my brain stopped banging around in my skull :lol:
it is truly a big handful :wtf: I am impressed with the guys who can handle and shoot accurately this type of round :drinks:
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 20 Jul 2019, 1:35 pm

I hear ya marksman, 3 rapid shots of even moderate loads sure do shake up the brain.

My 500 was built on a 375HH so only 10.25 lbs so at the lighter end of what would be tolerable.
When a guy is digging his own grave, you don’t fight him for the shovel.

Success leaves clues, Fools follow failure !

20 Hornet, 218 Bee, 222 Rem, 256 WM, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5x55 Scan, 270 Win, 357 Mag, 358 Win, 9.3x62, 500 A Square
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 20 Jul 2019, 2:23 pm

Bill wrote:I hear ya marksman, 3 rapid shots of even moderate loads sure do shake up the brain.

My 500 was built on a 375HH so only 10.25 lbs so at the lighter end of what would be tolerable.

think your 500 would have abit more horse power then the .505gibbs but an interesting starting point non the less thanks for the reply.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jul 2019, 3:00 pm

Bill wrote:I hear ya marksman, 3 rapid shots of even moderate loads sure do shake up the brain.

My 500 was built on a 375HH so only 10.25 lbs so at the lighter end of what would be tolerable.


I like a heavier rifle, heavy barrels and some lead on the stock helps. They are OK to shoot off sticks or leaning on a tree but sighting in at a bench is a chore. I always come back home with a headache from the concussion even when shooting a 460 or 416 from the bench doing load development or sighting in.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 21 Jul 2019, 10:51 am

cracker wrote:
Bill wrote:I hear ya marksman, 3 rapid shots of even moderate loads sure do shake up the brain.

My 500 was built on a 375HH so only 10.25 lbs so at the lighter end of what would be tolerable.

think your 500 would have abit more horse power then the .505gibbs but an interesting starting point non the less thanks for the reply.



Not sure cracka but I would have thought if you Stoke up the Gibbs then you could match nd exceed the higher pressure 500 A2
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by bigpete » 21 Jul 2019, 11:02 am

525gn ain't that heavy lol
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Stoney » 21 Jul 2019, 5:38 pm

Winchester P-14 action? Literally every big game round known to man has been built on that action. It also has an awesome Old School cool look with that dog leg bolt handle. :D
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 21 Jul 2019, 8:35 pm

Stoney wrote:Winchester P-14 action? Literally every big game round known to man has been built on that action. It also has an awesome Old School cool look with that dog leg bolt handle. :D

yeah interesting consideration but the cost would go way up.. even a real mauser action may work? but the cost would go threw the roof surely.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by mickb » 29 Jul 2019, 6:56 pm

cracker wrote:think your 500 would have abit more horse power then the .505gibbs but an interesting starting point non the less thanks for the reply.


The Gibbs will far exceed any 375 H&H wildcat, it has over 170 grains water capacity vs about 108 grains for H&H based wildcats. The reason it was loaded so low traditionally 2300 with 525 grain bullets was keeping things safe with old actions and cordite powder.

These days on a strong action you can push a 600 grain bullet to nearly 2700fps. The 505 is also the basis for the 408 chey tac ultra long range rifle.


As to actions, the Gibbs rim and case size will make it too large for all but a few. The most common conversions were done on the Brno602( CZ550 predecessor), CZ550( I did a 585 Nyati on the CZ550), the granite moutain arms action, the Montana action, and the big old M17 and P14 actions though these will need more work. The Rem and wby mkV actions will all be too small. Some had a concern with the CZ550 not leaving a lot of meat on the bolt once opened out, but it turned out to be fine. CZ was actually selling 505 safari rifles here for about $4400 up until a few years ago. The specialised scaled up long range rem700 clones designed for the 408 chey tac by Stiller and Lawnton will also accomodate a 505 Gibbs since the 408 is based off it. You could have fun with a detachable box fed 505 gibbs if you wanted.

Bob Devries at Kudu is excellent, but it will probably cost you more than you estimated, big guns attract a premium. I dont think you would get much change out 6k these days. Contact Bob first of course, I don't want to be spreading rumours that aren't true. The other gunsmiths that can do it are Anthony George in the NT and John Clapham in the blue mountains. If you want their contacts let me know. Remember you also have to figure several hundred dollars for dies in this class and cases may be $5-8 a piece so start up costs may be a 1k more than you were expecting.

There are cheaper and easier options for a 50+ cal. Getting a factory CZ550 in 416 Ribgy if you can find one its basically rebarrel to the 500 A-square or 510 wells( both essentially the same .510 calibre wildcat) as the 416 Rigby has the same dimensions as this whole family( 416 rigby/416 weatherby, 450 rigby/460 weatherby, 475 A&M, 500 A-square, 530 woodleigh, 550 magnum). The 500 versions will beat 460 weatherby power by at least 10%, you will be pushing 600 grain bullets to almost 2600fps. They can use the full range of 500 jeffery bullets( another old elephant gun like the 505 gibbs) which woodleigh produces. The 550 magnum is probably the most bang for the buck. Its a .550 barrel on the same gun, its the largest diametre the weatherby magnum case head size can accomodate. This gun will push 700 grain bullets over 2300fps. Anthony George in the NT has reamers and barrels I believe.

If you want to go larger than that , there is the 585 nyati, which is a unique case size , slightly fatter and shorter than the 505 gibbs. Its needs the same actions mentioned above for the 505 Gibbs and similar extensive gunsmithing as well. It will push 750 grain bullets to 2500fps, over 10,000ftlbs energy. After that is the 600 overkill, which is about the largest you can do off a standard magnum boltaction, and it will push 900 grainers to 2400fps. I believe Anthony George has the reamers and barrels for this as well. These are a fair bit of work to do, like the 505 gibbs as they are into that giant oddball case size.

Off bolt actions and onto the Ruger no.1 single shot, it can also accomodate most of the old elephant gun cartridges too. The 577 nitro is considered the limit, it is not large enough for conversion to 600 cals.

Above that you are into customising 50BMG actions or building custom single shots, for which you can go all the way to 700 nitro, though price will be really climbing as well, 10k level.

My bods too screwed for the big stuff these days. If I was going to get into the big stuff and just wanted extreme, convenient, relatively low cost power I wouldnt go for the 505 gibbs as its more work to do. Id get one of the weatherby case head wildcats like the 500 A-square. Easier gunsmithing job, pretty much a re-barrel, keep the old stock, maybe add a pound of two of epoxied lead shot into it, there are more bullet choices in 510, you can use light jacketed blackpowder bullets for blowing up light game, true elephant gun bullets, and some blokes even single load 50BMG pointed bullets in them too. The only inconvenience is you may need to neck up and fireform brass using 460 weatherby magnum cases, unless someone is bringing them in standard.

You'd get the 505 gibbs more if you wanted the historical angle, since its one of the oldies of the safari era, or if you wanted to chase more power, since its cases are about 30 grains higher capacity than the weatherby wildcats. Personally I don't think you'd ever use the power, unless you are building a 16lb rifle any loads near 2600fps with a 600 grain are going to be graphic recoil with either case. As the gibbs has factory brass and there still may be some rifles in it kicking around that might be an advantage as well.

Personally if I was going to the trouble of getting the Gibbs, for the same cost I would probably jump right to a 585 Nyati on a cz550, or actually a 577 nitro on the ruger single shot.

So rehashing some options
1. Cheapest and easiest. 375H&H case head. about 90-100 grains capacity. 375, 416 taylor, 458 win, 416 rem, 458 lott, 470 capstick etc. usually just a rebarrel of each other, dirt cheap brass, tons of actions.
2. 404 jeffery or its wildcats. This includes the remington ultramags which are based off the 404 jeffery. These will usually have a bit more capacity than the 375 case head wildcats.
3. Weatherby Magnum or Rigby case head size(basically the same). 130-150 grains, signficant jump in power, still reasonably economical re-barrels if you can find a CZ550 rigby donor or if weatherby still does 30-378 or 338-378 wby's on MkV actions(they used to sell these for just a couple k, you could rebarrel to 500 a-square, though adding weight to the stocks would be needed). Calibres all the way up to 550 as mentioned. Most things firing a 338 lapua should also handle these case sizes as its based off the 416rigby too.
4. 505 gibbs size case head, including the 408 chey tac and its wildcats. usually 150-175 grains capacity. The largest magnum actions, also special long range actions designed for the 408.
5. The ultra-large bores, 577,585, 600 etc. , anywhere from 180-220 grains capacity cases. The largest magnum actions.
6. 50BMG sized projects. 12 ga from hell, 700 nitro, 577/700., 220 grain+ capacity cases.
Last edited by mickb on 29 Jul 2019, 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 29 Jul 2019, 7:54 pm

mickb my action was originally a H&H its not a wildcat based on the 375. The 460 Weatherby necked up to 51 cal creates the 500 A Square.

Probably the easiest 500 to build on the CZ550 magnum action.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by mickb » 29 Jul 2019, 8:13 pm

Bill wrote:mickb my action was originally a H&H its not a wildcat based on the 375. The 460 Weatherby necked up to 51 cal creates the 500 A Square.

Probably the easiest 500 to build on the CZ550 magnum action.


Ok gotcha Bill, you meant A-square on a H&H rifle, not the H&H case. :thumbsup: When you posted H&H I knew the case head was too small for 500 but I didn't want to call you out. Luckily, as I misunderstood you. :)

Yes the weatherby mag cases are the economical power choices, easy conversions, lots of good brass.

For the record the 505 will run over 100fps faster than the A-square full tilt , with good brass. Not that anyone usually runs them that hard.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 29 Jul 2019, 8:56 pm

great replies really enjoyed reading that.
going down the .505 path just struggling to get a hold of .t .s. engineering in qld for a barrel, found a rifle.
brass has been ordered and dies. shell plate ie here on the 6th of august... bit by bit... main problem is just the bloody barrel !
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 29 Jul 2019, 9:52 pm

yeah mickb gun was bought and sent straight to the CZ custom shop in the US, mag box gives the 375 H&H origins away and the lightish 10.25lbs weight even thou it has mercury reducers and barrel lug.
When a guy is digging his own grave, you don’t fight him for the shovel.

Success leaves clues, Fools follow failure !

20 Hornet, 218 Bee, 222 Rem, 256 WM, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5x55 Scan, 270 Win, 357 Mag, 358 Win, 9.3x62, 500 A Square
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by mickb » 29 Jul 2019, 10:02 pm

Nice mate, the 505 was always huge prestige because of the classic status, its size exclusivity aka it was difficult to just plug into regular actions, and stoked hot the 108 year old gent can outrun almost any other elephant gun, including modern ones. Estimates over 2800fps with the 525grain( god protect your shoulder though :) ) Other barrel options when I was into the big stuff was Tobler in NSW( my 585 barrel was Tobler) and Sprinter in SA used to be able to do all the way up to 600 nitro. This is 20 year old info though. Any of the dealers should be able to pull you in Krieger, Pac-nor etc worst case.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by mickb » 29 Jul 2019, 10:13 pm

Bill wrote:yeah mickb gun was bought and sent straight to the CZ custom shop in the US, mag box gives the 375 H&H origins away and the lightish 10.25lbs weight even thou it has mercury reducers and barrel lug.


Ok nice. Yes second recoil lug needed at this level. Does yours have the crossbolts in the stock? I remember when the CZ550's first hit the shelves in the late 90's it was like christmas, 416 ribgy's for only $1070, perfect donors for every project. The issue was the stocks were cracking even from the original calibres. You had to figure in a new stock at purchase basically. Not sure when they changed it but I got another one in 2012 and it had much better stock with crossbolts standard.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by Bill » 30 Jul 2019, 6:38 am

Yeah mate 2 cross bolts installed by CZ, everything is super slick as you'd expect by the custom shop.

Duck butter couldn't get this action any smoother
When a guy is digging his own grave, you don’t fight him for the shovel.

Success leaves clues, Fools follow failure !

20 Hornet, 218 Bee, 222 Rem, 256 WM, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5x55 Scan, 270 Win, 357 Mag, 358 Win, 9.3x62, 500 A Square
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by cracker » 30 Jul 2019, 9:49 pm

mickb wrote:Nice mate, the 505 was always huge prestige because of the classic status, its size exclusivity aka it was difficult to just plug into regular actions, and stoked hot the 108 year old gent can outrun almost any other elephant gun, including modern ones. Estimates over 2800fps with the 525grain( god protect your shoulder though :) ) Other barrel options when I was into the big stuff was Tobler in NSW( my 585 barrel was Tobler) and Sprinter in SA used to be able to do all the way up to 600 nitro. This is 20 year old info though. Any of the dealers should be able to pull you in Krieger, Pac-nor etc worst case.


yeah really enjoy the classic nature and the stories/history attached too it, like the 458 lott.
ill trying chasing down both those names tomorrow, .510 is about.. but kinda wrecks the idea abit.

cases rocked up today, yet to hear on the dies from brownells, see how brave it get loading it wise, the 458 lott has a pretty decent punch with 81grains of ar2208 and a 500 grain solid, if its too much ill look into a brake/mercury recoil reducer.

thanks once again.
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Re: .505 Gibbs project

Post by mickb » 31 Jul 2019, 1:09 am

cracker wrote:
yeah really enjoy the classic nature and the stories/history attached too it, like the 458 lott.
ill trying chasing down both those names tomorrow, .510 is about.. but kinda wrecks the idea abit.



The 458 lott is young enough to be its granson, it was the born in the 1970's and also designed by an American. Comparing it to the Gibbs for class could get you into trouble on a safari forum, start a riot even. :D Jokes, its a great cartridge as well. Actually its one of the few cartridges that attained classic status despite being a generation after the real safari heyday had closed...

keep us informed!
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