What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by TassieTiger » 07 Aug 2019, 3:28 pm

FWIW - I’m not having a crack per se. Different ppl worry about different things - its life. If it were a $10,000 rifle then I might enquire as to what bobox is but consumer warranty would protect you regardless. If it was a $2-3k rifle?...well, basic and regular maintenance would probably prevent any mainstream / operational issues regardless of coatings...
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 07 Aug 2019, 4:41 pm

After reading comments like this, I decided to buy a stainless steel rifle:

I would never buy a blued rifle again. Either stainless or some of the high tech coatings is the way to go.


I bought stainless after a 10 day hunt yrs ago that it rained and snowed every day. All five of us with various brands of rifles from high to low end had rust showing up by day 3. Who wants to oil their gun every night after a long day of hunting? Went stainless and I put a few coats of the drying rust preventer before I leave and I forget about it until I get home. Wouldn't ever go blued with fancy wood stock for a mountain rifle again.


Stainless rifles still need care. They do allow a certain amount of margin for error when used in wet and dirty conditions, or in humid climates.

Of course the stainless steel used in rifles is generally 416R, which has distinct properties. It's a free-machining stainless steel with a machinability of 85%, highest of all stainless steels. But 400 series stainless - despite it's name - WILL rust if it's not wiped down and oiled. 300 series stainless is very resistant to corrosion, but lacks the tensile strength, toughness, and heat treat-ability for use in containing cartridge pressures.

Sometimes other stainless steels are used : 410 (the high machinability of 416 can be sacrificed to gain better corrosion resistance and formability) or 303 (a slight drop in machinability to gain better availability. Grade 303 is non-hardenable), or 182 (a free-machining Ferritic grade with better "soft magnetic" performance for solenoid shafts. Grade 182 is non-hardenable).

No mysteries here. Just plain materials science.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Stix » 07 Aug 2019, 5:12 pm

TassieTiger wrote:FWIW - I’m not having a crack per se. Different ppl worry about different things - its life. If it were a $10,000 rifle then I might enquire as to what bobox is but consumer warranty would protect you regardless. If it was a $2-3k rifle?...well, basic and regular maintenance would probably prevent any mainstream / operational issues regardless of coatings...

Yep...!! :thumbsup:
Ditto...!!

Im not trying to be argumentative, but wiping some posts because they are deemed "argumentative" is fair enough...but i dont feel whats left is consistant...just saying...

I fail to see how this post for example,
ramshackle wrote:If you Google Bobox surface treatment, the only worthwhile hit you get on the entire internet is this thread!

>Insert Nelson Munz laugh here<

Roll right up, suckers! Put your money down on this here "Bobox surface treatment"!
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is deemed to be useful to the topic & not argumentative in itself... :unknown:
Or what KFC has to do with it... :unknown:

Just wipe the entire thread--almost by the op's own admission there is nothing useful in it...!!...& he's just bagging a company anyway... :silent:

Cant help but feel like we're in school & someone didnt like things not going their way & so "dobbed on the teacher"...

No doubt ill be complained about & punished for posting this...
But i feel a right to say it regardless...
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by on_one_wheel » 07 Aug 2019, 5:30 pm

Here's my letter to KFC

Dear Colonel Sanders
Can you please tell me what 7 secret herbs and spices are used on your original recipe chicken.
I would really like to know what I'm eating before I commit to buying a bucket of your chicken.

Dear on-one-wheel
Unfortunately our 7 secret herbs and spices must remain a secret.
All I can say is that the original recipe chicken is finger licking good.

My reply.
Screw you Colonel, I'm going to Red Rooster.

Dear on-one-wheel
I hope you enjoy your tough old Rooster as much as our billions of customers enjoy their KFC,
Knowing that we've lost a customer by keeping our recipe a secret is indeed hurtful :sarcasm:
Up ya bum
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Aug 2019, 6:43 pm

Roflmao!

Gold!
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 09 Aug 2019, 9:20 am

Just finishing my thoughts on this topic, it appears that CZ used to use a surface treatment called Polycoat, then in about 2016 moved to a ferritic salt bath nitriding process they called "Arcor" (nitriding is very common in the firearms industry, sometimes called Melonite, or Tenifer in the Glock world), before bringing out Bobox in 2018. I've seen claims that CZ used Polycoat over a Arcor/Melonite finish, and that Polycoat was an electrostatically applied polymer which was then baked on, giving a somewhat dull finish.

CZ used Polycoat from the 1990s and upgraded it about 4x. Polycoat was a cheap factory finish and covered imperfections in finish quite well, but had many issues with rubbing/flaking or chipping, from reports.

Eventually the truth of Bobox will leak out. It always does.

My best guess is a borate added to the molten metal.

Okay, over to the mob.

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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Aug 2019, 5:44 pm

ramshackle wrote:My best guess is a borate added to the molten metal.

Okay, over to the mob.


Molten metal? You mean during smelting the iron into steel ingots for forming into bars that then become barrel blanks? That would mean you could machine the surface with a lathe and still maintain the finish? It would also mean the finish would be the same inside the bore?

I think it's much more likely a hot oxide bluing technique that _might_ add boron to the surface during the rusting process.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 09 Aug 2019, 7:22 pm

bladeracer wrote:Molten metal? You mean during smelting the iron into steel ingots for forming into bars that then become barrel blanks? That would mean you could machine the surface with a lathe and still maintain the finish? It would also mean the finish would be the same inside the bore?


Yup. That also happens to be what the Oz CZ rep told my LGS. He said it was added to the metal while the metal is in a liquid state.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Aug 2019, 10:58 pm

If you add borate to molten steel it will rise to the top as a flux. You can add boron to steel alloys in order to improve corrosion resistance.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by on_one_wheel » 10 Aug 2019, 7:32 am

Spray it on any surface to stop rusting, bending, buckling, wrinkling, tearing and fading.

IMG_20190810_065851.jpg
CZ BoBox Surface treatment
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 10 Aug 2019, 11:34 am

SCJ429 wrote:If you add borate to molten steel it will rise to the top as a flux. You can add boron to steel alloys in order to improve corrosion resistance.


Well, if you add boron oxide to molten steel you get a ferroboron or iron boride that is corrosion resistant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_boride

The metal also becomes very hard, and much harder wearing.

You can also get a ferroboron layer onto steel by putting it into a container packed with boride powder and heating it to 1273 K (1000°C) for 8 hours.
This is known as a "powder-pack boriding process".
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10 ... 4016630257

More about this process:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boriding
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by duncan61 » 10 Aug 2019, 11:53 am

Good to see you have it sorted
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 10 Aug 2019, 12:49 pm

duncan61 wrote:Good to see you have it sorted


I don't have it sorted. I have a few theories, but in time we'll see which one is correct.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Aug 2019, 2:25 pm

ramshackle wrote:
duncan61 wrote:Good to see you have it sorted


I don't have it sorted. I have a few theories, but in time we'll see which one is correct.


Are you determined to buy the CZ or determined to understand their boron oxidising process?
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Aug 2019, 2:32 pm

ramshackle wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:If you add borate to molten steel it will rise to the top as a flux. You can add boron to steel alloys in order to improve corrosion resistance.


Well, if you add boron oxide to molten steel you get a ferroboron or iron boride that is corrosion resistant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_boride
quote]

You can also add manganese boron or nickel boron in the same manner to give your steel alloy different properties. I don't think that this is what CZ is doing and even if it was I would prefer a stainless barrel from Lithgow or Tikka which have proven resistance to corrosion if you store them with a little care.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 10 Aug 2019, 3:04 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Are you determined to buy the CZ or determined to understand their boron oxidising process?


I'd like to understand what they are doing, just out of my innate need to 'grok' what's going on. Doesn't everyone?

SCJ429 wrote:You can also add manganese boron or nickel boron in the same manner to give your steel alloy different properties. I don't think that this is what CZ is doing and even if it was I would prefer a stainless barrel from Lithgow or Tikka which have proven resistance to corrosion if you store them with a little care.


We simply don't know what CZ are doing, so what we think doesn't count.

And yes, like you I prefer a stainless barrel (and I have bought one), rather than an unknown quantity.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Mattraff » 27 Aug 2019, 11:20 am

I have owned my 457 with this BOBOX treatment for a few months now and I can report that it hasn't killed me or burnt the house down as yet. I would prefer a smooth blued finish for aesthetics but this dull treatment is fine and the rifle shoots great so I'm not going to think about it much.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Member-Deleted » 27 Aug 2019, 1:47 pm

I find this post quite entertaining, bobox this or that, secret recipe not secret etc, and the author say's " dropping $1000 on a couple of Kilos of steel!" , well I think it's more than a couple of kilos of steel, but really it's all quite simple, if you feel it's bull dust and the rifle is not worth near $1000, don't buy it and move on to another manufacturer or brand where they are quite openlys willing to share all intellectual property etc just to secure your $1000. Oh I do not own a 457.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by TassieTiger » 27 Aug 2019, 8:05 pm

I think the author has now hit his head on some bobox covered steel and has decided (via a different thread) that a good portion of the members here don’t share his most important worldly “cares” - thus, he has decided to return to his own firearm forum(which he owns outright apparently), and where he enjoys a much stronger membership number, who apparently agrees100% with His every whim and wish...
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Mattraff » 19 Oct 2019, 10:04 pm

I spoke with a lady today from CZ at the shot show and asked if BOBOX was an applied coating. Her response was that it was a process during manufacture that is unique to CZ firearms and that if scratched the steel would not rust as bobox is not just a surface coating but is about 2mm deep. It is formed in the surface as nd within the steel structure during the heat treating process.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 22 Oct 2019, 7:42 am

Mattraff wrote:I spoke with a lady today from CZ at the shot show and asked if BOBOX was an applied coating. Her response was that it was a process during manufacture that is unique to CZ firearms and that if scratched the steel would not rust as bobox is not just a surface coating but is about 2mm deep. It is formed in the surface as nd within the steel structure during the heat treating process.


That's not reassuring. Good processes are already known and used extensively in the firearms industry.

I won't buy an expensive metal item that has an unknown and unproven —and secretive— surface treatment. Not in my very corrosive climate. It's just not worth taking the chance when known treatments are used by all other manufacturers.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Oct 2019, 8:00 am

So you wouldn’t also be taking any so called improved / advanced pharmaceuticals either - as without a chemistry degree, your not going to understand the improvements.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Bill » 22 Oct 2019, 8:00 am

I find it very reassuring that the process CZ uses isn't just a superficial coating like blueing or cerakoting, knowing that it is atleast 2mm deep will let me sleep more easily.

Protecting their own IP on a new coating /steel manufacturing process that saves on other coating treatments would be good business.

What will you be buying ??
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 22 Oct 2019, 8:58 am

TassieTiger wrote:So you wouldn’t also be taking any so called improved / advanced pharmaceuticals either - as without a chemistry degree, your not going to understand the improvements.


Medicines are NOT secretive. They have to go through extensive and exhaustive and OPEN testing. That's the exact opposite of what we have here. :roll:
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 22 Oct 2019, 8:59 am

Bill wrote:I find it very reassuring that the process CZ uses isn't just a superficial coating like blueing or cerakoting, knowing that it is atleast 2mm deep will let me sleep more easily.


That's what they CLAIM, but we have no proof because it's a secret.

What will you be buying ??


One of the many other options, probably just s/steel
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Bill » 22 Oct 2019, 9:03 am

LOL @S/Steel wouldnt you be worried about galling..... :lol:
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 22 Oct 2019, 9:09 am

Bill wrote:LOL @S/Steel wouldnt you be worried about galling..... :lol:


Why would I be?

Dissimilar grades of SS in the contacting parts, with proper lube, solves the problem

Galling was a problem with some early stainless guns but is pretty much nonexistent now.
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Bill » 22 Oct 2019, 9:57 am

Ummm incorrect galling can be a problem with both CM and SS and I have seen many recent built rifles with galling issues, your claim that it is non existent is bollocks, many people on here already think you over reach, please stop confirming it. :wtf:
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by Stix » 22 Oct 2019, 10:13 am

Bill...thats a bit harsh...!!

Im sure Ramo can give some examples of the "early stainless guns" he's owned that had issues with galling, & how his thorough knowledge in metallurgy can demonstrate how this galling-like that i had on a new rifle recently-doesnt happen anymore...
:)

Its going to get interesting here soon...

You know...when he starts educating No1Mk3 about historic mil surps, re-educating Marksman how to load ammo, SCJ & sungazer how to shoot, & big pete how to call a fox in with lip squeeks...

QUACK QUACK...
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Re: What is CZ's Bobox surface treatment?

Post by ramshackle » 22 Oct 2019, 10:22 am

Bill wrote:Ummm incorrect galling can be a problem with both CM and SS and I have seen many recent built rifles with galling issues, your claim that it is non existent is bollocks, many people on here already think you over reach, please stop confirming it. :wtf:


Give me a link to a decent source that confirms galling is an issue in modern rimfire rifles.

If it's a real problem, there should be plenty of links you can provide. :roll:
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